posted
i'm wondering if the mods will end up deleting this thread, since it has been kind of brutal. not that im concerned about any "damage" done, but i am just curious what will become of this.
Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
You know, of course, that it's completely hypocritical of me to flame Chad. Especially considering the number of times I've yelled at other people for similar actions. Heck, even I think Kwea went too far in this thread (as an example of my hypocrisy more than a judgement of Kwea). I've no excuse, justification or, for that matter, remorse in this case. Generally I try to walk a fine line between heartfelt flaming and a more joking variety, but you're right. Both in that I was too personal here and (more importantly) that a flame is still a flame.
Not that I can promise I won't do it again because it does amuse me and I do find it satisfying. And a habit (however bad) that is both gratifying and amusing is a tough one to kick (especially when cheered on by the lynch mob).
But hey, continue irritating me by pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and it'll start moving more and more to the forefront of my mind I'll probably change my ways because, like I said, I know I'm wrong, even if I don't care enough to change right now.
That's the only concession I can offer you, buddy, hope it's something.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Can you say "buddy" in a really snooty French accent? Man, I need to get my Gilmore Girl fix tonight.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Bob, I must admit that the "if I freely admit that what I'm doing is bad, I don't need to change" approach is a novel and disarming one. But it also has the potential of being far, far less amusing than it sounds over the long haul. So please play nice.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Sadly, I am completely incapable of reproducing any accent. Snooty or otherwise. My brother, however, is quite good at a number of accents and used to get us howling by speaking fluent French in a thick Glasgowegian accent. My father would be so proud.
And for the record, Tom, I'm now completely irritated with myself for my posts in this thread. I hope you're happy.
(Posted in the hopes that my apparent dissatisfaction of losing my fun will stimulate your "must not derive pleasure from someone's pain" response and thereby ruin any satisfaction you might have for a job well done. Yes, it's a complex and meandering world inside my mind. I frequently get lost on one of the many garden paths).
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Apart from beating me fair and square in debates from time to time, the only time I recall BtL annoying me was some random linkage of church and porn in the middle of an unrelated discussion. For some reason it caused me to visualize a specific haunt from my college days called "Big Ed's".
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
The whole problem with the internet is male conflict resolution. We can't solve things through physical contact, so we have to walk around and prove who wears the biggest pants all. the. time.
It's so much easier in person. If Chad spoke, in person, the way he does on the internet I'd probably long since have knocked his ass out. As it is, I can still ignore him or read his posts and laugh out loud at his extreme stupidity.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I swear I was typing that last one as you were typing yours and didn't see it before I posted.
It was novel and disarming, wasn't it? That's so what I was going for.
The thing is, Tom, that I know you're right. I agree with you and I should be the bigger person here. I would love to be the bigger person here... but maybe I'd love to be snarky even more? I'm not going to lie to you and say "I've changed! I will never flame someone that I feel has it coming again!" because I'd be lying. I have a poor track record at overnight changes. But calling me on it has certainly stopped it for this thread, and probably more several threads to come (sadly, that probably depends more on Chad than it does me. Which, agian, is unfair of me).
So my question is, if I see and understand that a behavior is wrong, but clearly don't care enough to change it (else I would have by now) how do I suddenly care? It's actually a common theme in my life where I understand on an academic level that what I'm doing is wrong, but can't find the will to change it. Pathetic excuse? Yes. Perhaps I'm lying to myself that I understand that it's a problem? Am I lost on another garden path?
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:I'm a drill sargent in Pookaville and a supplicant in the Order of Noemonites.
Pssst--it's the Order of the Noemonic Knights, and you're a full fledged Knight. Got a saddle broken Roc to fly around on and everything. Order of the Noemonites sounds good too though. I'll have to incorporate that into it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
It's because you are a weak, degenerate, immoral, liberal, girlie-man. OOPS. I mean, people like you are.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Oh, and whoever it was that asked for a show of hands of people who would like Chad to go away--I would like Chad to stay, actually. I would like him to develop a posting style that is consistent with the ideals laid out in the agreement he accepted when creating his login here, but I would very much like him to stick around. I'd have liked Baldar to stay around, frankly. When that guy wasn't being deliberately offensive, he had some pretty interesting things to contribute to the discussion. I like to have articulate, intelligent, kind people with whom I disagree on just about everything on the board; it helps me to understand the mindset of those who think differently than I do. I would love for Chad to mellow into such a member.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
oddly enough that is what I had been saying about Chad in another thread 2 nights ago...hell, I had even said he had really shown a lot of improvment, and would end up being a good addition to Hatrack..
Then he went and proved me wrong.
Oh well, if he doesn't are, why should I...I won't bother to give him the satisfaction of riling me up again, that's for sure....
I also prefer being a ninja master to being an evil master. Disciples are so much cooler than minions.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'm going to make a suggestion that I think might help here. Everyone back off of Chad for now.
Yes, you think he's been rude and childish and disrespectful and all these things. I'd agree with you on that. But that's not what our main focus should be on.
Now's the time when we need to figure out what our goals are here and to focus on those goals. With respect to the forum, I'd very much like it if our more serious threads could be both mostly respectful and productive. Apropo of nothing, there was a thread a few days ago about how this could be achieved in the face of people acting rude, childish, and disrespectful.
With respect to Chad, well, that's where we've got some options. The way I see it, the big problem we have with Chad is that his behavior is both unacceptable and somewhat poisonous in regards to this forum. So, our goals are pretty much set out for us. I think they are either we try to convince Chad to change his ways or we try to get rid of him.
One of the things that is simultaneously admirable and somewhat maddening about this forum is how remarkably forgiving people can be towards bad behavior. I tell you, when I finally come up for parole, I hope that there are a bunch of Hatrackers sitting on the board. I doubt that there are very many people who really want this to be the type of place that would be dedicated to trying to get rid of someone like Chad.
I certainly don't want that, nor do I want Chad specifically gone. When he first started, before people (in many cases justifiably) began jumping all over him, he gave hints of some perspectives that held potential to be interesting and informative.
When you focus on the wrongs that you perceive Chad as having done in general or to you specifically, I think you risk losing sight of either of these goals. Reacting with anger isn't going to get you want you want.
If you'd like Chad to change, well injudicious attacks are not the way to go about it. Think of it from your own perspective. When you're getting attacked, don't you generally become defensive? That's not the place where a lot of self-reflection or change happens. You tend instead to focus on the people attacking you and you try to lash out at them. People may not have noticed, but the general level of Chad's posts have deteriorated as he has come under attack. I think we're seeing the understandable defensiveness coming out. If we remove at least some of this pressure, I think he might be better able to consider his role in all this mess.
If, on the other had, you opt for the more uncharitable option, think of how this situation would look to a moderator. Chad has been taking a lot of attacks, some of which are more or less equally unacceptable as the behavior he is being attacked for. In an environment like that, you're not only making the mods job much more difficult, you're also making Chad's trespasses much less significant, in the same way that the height of a 5 foot person is less significant in a crowd of people averaging around 5'2" than if they were all around 6 foot. If you really want to get him banned, you should be responding with kindness or at least politely worded criticisms.
In either case, I think we'd all be better off if people focus on their goal instead of trying to strike back and hurt Chad. It's neither good for you as a person nor particularly effective. I'm personally recommending that we give Chad a little respite, because I think that this would be the best step we could take towards either of these two goals right now.
---
Chad, Regardless of what the actual facts and justice of the situation might be (and I'm willing to bet even you know that you've been out of line at least a few times), you've got a problem in that you are out of step with a large section of this community. Many of us, pretty much across boundaries of age, sex, religion, and political affiliation and ideologies (Dagonee, for example, is arguably the most respected conservative poster on this board), have viewed some of your behavior as unacceptable and occasionaly downright hillarious.
You've got a choice here. It's natural to assume that it our problem and that you are blameless. I'm sure all of us here have had times when we've felt these urges. The thing is, it's really not your ideology that we're really having a problem with. It's your behavior, the way you go about expressing your views, that we have problems with, not your views themselves (well, a bunch of people probably have problems with them too).
Again, maybe this is all our fault (I'll freely admit that you've been sinned against as well as sinning), but the thing is, it's very unlikely that we're going to change. You're not exactly something all that special or unprecedented here. We've had plenty of posters come in acting like you have been. Some have reformed and become valued members of the community, to everyone's (especially their) benefit. Others haven't changed and have been rejected by the community until they were either banned or took on a very sporadic presence. Overall, for us, it's really not all that big a deal (the evidence of the past couple of days notwithstanding). Right now you're an annoyance, but we're pretty confident that, one way or another, this annoyance will eventually go away.
So, if you want to become part of the community here (and I, at least, think it's a pretty good places, as places go), you're going to have to figure out what it is about what you're doing that we're objecting to and what you could do about it. There's really not even all that much you'd have to do. You don't even have to appologize or admit you were wrong. As I said, the people here are remarkably forgiving. If you stopped the offensive posting tommorow, in a week or two it would be as if none of this even happened.
I personally hope that you decide to at least give this a shot. You've demonstrated some glimpses of potential, and, as most people here can tell you, I enjoy arguing with people of integrity that disagree with me.
However, right now, I don't really care what you think. For one thing, I don't find your arguing style either pleasant or particularly effective. The best use I could put you to would be (as I suspect some people here have already done) to use you as an object lesson against whatever position you were taking by coupling your bad behavior with the stands you take. For another, you're simply not in my class, and you're not going to get any better going the way you've been going.
I would like to see you become a member of the community here and an opponent that I look forward to debating, but, besides giving you this advice, there really isn't all that much I can do to make that happen. That's pretty much up to you. I certainly don't expect you to have a Saul on the road to Damascus moment upon reading this. I figure you'll probably get pissed at me. I guess I'd be happy if you at least keep some of this in mind and match it up, from time to time, with your future experiences here.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Dag, while I do not have time at this instant to read all of what's been posted since I left the office yesterday, I wanted to thank you for responding to the question Chad asked. You have both accuratly represented my thoughts and articulated them more clearly than I generally manage to. Thanks Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I've been hugged by a Goddess ! I've been hugged by a Goddess ! *runs to tell everyone* *then, thinks it may not be a good idea* (((Banna))) *whispers* I've hugged a Goddess !
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Is it okay if I hear the voice of Michel from Gilmore Girls when reading BtL's posts now? Oh, and Tom, you're Lorelei.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Dag, while I do not have time at this instant to read all of what's been posted since I left the office yesterday, I wanted to thank you for responding to the question Chad asked. You have both accuratly represented my thoughts and articulated them more clearly than I generally manage to.
Thanks. I regret a little of my tone in this, and agree to a large extent with MrSquicky about the usefullness of some of the responses to CStroman (including my own), but the only post of mine whose content I actually regret was deleted (Edit: by me) within a couple of minutes. I'm coming from a unique mix of alignment with and opposition to different aspects of CStroman's views, so the provocation comes from both sides.
However, I'm now going to take Dana's advice from another thread and MrSquick's advice from this thread and try to leave this alone for a while.
No promises, though.
Dagonee P.S., I have a suspicion we're rooting for Nader for very different reasons, Tammy.
posted
I came on strong with Chad in his first thread, which seemed very trollish to. We subsequently apologized, and I'm willing to let him settle into the Hatrack ecology.
I don't believe I've "blown the whistle" on him ever.
I have to Thor. I almost have with some of Kwea's fiery rhetoric.
I think some people should lay off Chad, people are going a little neo-Conservative on him (ha!), and need to let him work himself in.
That said, I volunteer for Dagonee-minionship. I submit and look forward to my new Arch-Conservative overlord!
One thing this thread has accomplished is that I really go to know Ben. I was always pretty harsh with him before.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think I was the one of the only ones who didn't try to persuade you otherwise in the I'm-a-jerk thread When I don't like people, I try to avoid them. That's probably why you didn't notice. But it probably started with "I like to touch Ben's butt".
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I have only done it a few (like maybe 3 times) ever, and all of them were not the first offence...the people had all been warned, many times, and not just by me.
I have never been deleted/baleeted, or been censord, nor have the Mods ever had to post about me in all the time I have been here.
I went too far here, and I am sorry I did...and I took steps to remedy it within 4 minutes.
I also admitted I was off base with at least one of those coments, which is the first step to making amends...to the board in general, not to the subject.
I had, up to then, done nothing wrong, and was tired of being bashed simply because I didn't kow-tow to a troll....or to someone who's actions up to this point are as close to the line of trolling as I have seen in the past 4 years.
I went too far by making my comments personal (even though he didn't have any problem doing so), and for that I am sorry....but I stand by my position on this, if not the words I used to express that position.
If that is a problem, feel free to whistle me, and I will explain all of this to them.
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I'll probably change my ways because, like I said, I know I'm wrong, even if I don't care enough to change right now.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But it also has the potential of being far, far less amusing than it sounds over the long haul. So please play nice.
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MrSquicky
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When I don't like people, I try to avoid them. That's probably why you didn't notice. But it probably started with "I like to touch Ben's butt".
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