quote: Are you really trying to convince an atheist to look at things in terms of relativity to salvation?
I am not very sure about religion myself. But I can see that adding eternity to a situation changes a lot.
I know that not all religions involve salvation, but Christianity does and that is the most common religion here in the U.S.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I guesss to me it come down to not sweating the small stuff.
I am NOT saying basebal is small stuff to Paul...it obviously means a great deal to him. That is neither here nor there, as is my opinion on this...
But the insult, which was probably meant at leat half tongue-in-cheek, is small stuff, since it doesn't come from anyone who matters to him, really. Pooka and Paul have obviously had a problem in the past (at leat it seems to me that way) so why did her comment hurt so much? That is the real question here....
She did apoligize, and rather quickly, but when people react so much stonger to something like that than you ecpect it is easy to get defensive, and that is what happened...or how it looked to me.
Things got really personal, real quick, and here we are, hours later, still doing it.
Paul, I respect that way you feel about baseball, even though it seems over the top to me. I am the same way about pool, of I was until I got married, and my family never understood why I love it so much. To me it was the only thing I was still any good at, and all my friends were pool friends, so that is what I did...I played pool 4-5 nights a week, for hours at a time.
But I would hope that I would react better than you did if someone was to question me about it, or mock me for palying so much. I would probably get pissed, but I would offer to play them for money, or just continue playing.
If I started swearing at them, and berating them back, I would be playing into their hands really. Why in the world would I care what they thought? They weren't players....
Baseball may be your "salvation", but it isn't everyones, so some people just won't get it...ever.
BTW, everyone in Boston...I went to the LOTR exibit, and as you said it was great.
Paul, my friend Crystal, was at game 1 of the WS, as she won the redsox.com contest...I have some pics of her with some of the team members. I will send you them if you want, they are pretty cool I hear. She got to sit with Bud Selig and Dennis Eckersly..how cool was that?
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Well, if you want to do this, I don't really think Paul had any real trust in or emotional involvement with pooka. Also, the direspect shown by pooka's comment and subsequent reactions (and yeah, I think she was a little over the line. Pooka's always had a small vindictive streak, but it generally came out in obscure ways), didn't destroy the basis of their relationship. And, I didn't respond by cursing you out or attacking you. I don't even really think I got that angry. My primary response was sadness. (I just got that, I think. You thought I was angry with you.)
Ralphie, you know how important it is for performers to have people who know them, who are concerned about knowing them. I've got plenty of people who like me because I'm entertaining. I meet more of them every time I go out. It's still rare to find people who actually want and see more of me than the next joke or interesting thought. I thought you were one of them. Your comments and then your responses showed me that you weren't. Nobody's fault, really, we just didn't see things the same, but it sure was a shame.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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But all of Paul's examples in this thread have been Christian religions, which sort of points to Christianity being the religion he's coming the Red Sox to.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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To take this to a meta topic... <Grin> now that I started thinking about it, sports probably have taken the social place of religion in a large segment of the US society.
Sports in some ways are a lot less complicated of a belief system because they only demand loyalty and possibly superstition and don't quibble with trying to improve your morality or other forms of behavior with or without eternity.
quote: So the comparison is negated because of one religion?
No, but there are other religions that believe in life after death, and Blacwolve summed up the rest for me.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
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And used Christianity as an example more than once. It was a natural comparison for Allegra to make is most of what I'm saying, there's no need to jump on her about it.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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You know, I was aware of this, isn't that an amazing thing?
quote:If I walked into a thread about mormonism, and said "get a life"...
Also, he gives multiple other examples about "religious threads." Since over half religious threads on hatrack are Christian, it's very natural to make the connection with Christianity. Maybe not completely factually accurate, but natural.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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From my understanding of some of the links Rivka has shown me, Jews believe in a judgment day.
Hindus believe in reincarnation.
Ancient Egyptians believed in an afterlife as well.
There are more.
I am not saying that Christianity in the most important religion, but a majority of the people in the US know the most about Christianity so it is a point of reference.
Mack: All of those things you listed can be found in other parts of life, but with many religions it goes beyond that in many ways.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Wow. Didn't know people could get ticked off so easy...Maybe I need to start another "ticked off" thread Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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So, is this the casualty from the winning the World Series that was feared in girl/riot gear thread?
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Too tacky?
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Paul, baseball isn't actually affected either by pooka's comment or your defense of it. You're hitting back for your own pride. You're not defending baseball; you're defending yourself. Baseball doesn't care.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Honestly, Paul put up a post explaining why the Red Sox World Series win meant so much to him, how big of an affect it had on his life. He took a moment to share with us one of his happiest days.
That sharing happens a lot here at Hatrack. And very often we celebrate right along with each other, even when something that was life-changing for them might seem somewhat trivial to us individually.
We do it because we should be happy that our friends are happy. We do it because of respect. And we do it because others here have done it for us.
Sadly, it is often also a tradition for someone to walk in and poke a bit of fun at that person. Sometimes it is taken lightly, sometimes it's not.
I remember reading Paul's original post and saying to myself, "Wow, this really meant a lot to him" and I thought about how Boston had tied itself up in this history and suffered through year after year under the "Curse."
Whether the "Curse" was real or not in truth, it was legend to folks in Boston. And legends, sometimes, are what we define our societies by. Boston fans saw a legendary curse lifted, we should enjoy their cheers.
Sure, to the outside observer, Boston fans' waiting for this day was as pointless as waiting for Godot. But just the other night, Godot finally showed up for the folks in Boston.
Pooka's comment, when I read it in the thread, was pointedly telling someone that this phase in their life was pointless, and that people had wasted entire lifetimes believing in the curse and the eventual lifting of it. She didn't come in there to josh with a friend, she came to kick someone in the stomach while they were celebrating something that was important to them.
Sadly, that happens now and then here. Folks wait to settle an old score.
Paul probably shouldn't have started this thread, but it was done because he was wounded deeply. He wasn't kicked when he was down, he was kicked while he was up, possibly up as much as he had ever been. And oftentimes, that's the unkindest cut.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Paul, baseball isn't actually affected either by pooka's comment or your defense of it. You're hitting back for your own pride. You're not defending baseball; you're defending yourself. Baseball doesn't care.
The same applies to religious insults that happen, and yet people around here feel the need to raise a ruckus when it happens to their team. *sings* I'm see some hi-po-cray-see...
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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It's just as wrong when people do it in defense of religion. The Lord is more than capable of taking care of himself, and to respond nastily to insults to religion comes from pride and usually betrays the principles they are defending.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:The same applies to religious insults that happen, and yet people around here feel the need to raise a ruckus when it happens to their team. *sings* I'm see some hi-po-cray-see...
Jutsa, it's easy to see hypocrisy when you a) lump people together, so you can take attribute one person's actions to another, compare the ones that conflict, and declare hypocrisy, and 2) ignore the many posts comparing not only the substantive content of Paul's complaint with his reaction to it.
Now, maybe some people have reacted just as Paul has here to an insult to their religion. And maybe some of those people are here in this thread telling Paul they shouldn't do it. But unless Kat is one of them, the comment you quoted doesn't demonstrate hypocrisy.
Nor does someone complaining about Paul's behavior who has also complained about attacks on religion constitute hypocrisy, if 1) the subtance of the complaint is about his manner for expressing his ire, and 2) this person used a different method than Paul.
And it's also possible that someone who has reacted badly to something like this in the past is reacting to lessons learned when they came to regret their reaction later, although they should say so if this is the case.
In the words of Orson Scott Card, stories are what define us as human, they are what bind our societies together. One of the most important, if not the most important, stories binding the people of Boston and the Red Sox fans around the globe is the curse. Obviously the day the curse was lifted would bring great joy and celebration to these folks. I am not a Red Sox fan, but I celebrated along with them, knowing that to folks such as Paul, this was an event generations in coming, and something to be celebrated.
I cannot say that I would be less upset than Paul if Pooka had come in after I made a genuine post about why something made me so happy and said something to the same effect. It would most likely upset me just as much.
Paul, congratulations and enjoy the celebrations this weekend.
I can also see where Pooka came from, to her its "just a game", as it is to many hatrackers, and as it is to myself. But you have to realize, to many many people this was not just a game. This was a moment to define their society. This WAS life-changing because one of the central tenets of their lives was changed, and for the good. Who are the rest of us to say that the people who feel as Paul does are too wrapped up in baseball? We wrap ourselves just as tightly in things these others may see as trivial, but we expect them to respect our feelings. Is it so terrible to expect the same in return?
Pooka, I understand your reasons for doing it. However, I see no absolute need to mock Paul's beautiful post. If he has done the same to you in the past, then I will defend you the same as I defend him now. I haven't seen it happen, but I usually miss the religious debates. I hope you come back to Hatrack though, as I and many others tremendously enjoy your posts and your presence is an asset to the community. You are a part of our story, the story that defines who and what Hatrack, and Hatrackers, are. The story would be incomplete without you here as a character.
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Oh, lay off. I wasn't talking about katharina in particular, and even she recognized that. It is, however, a reaction I've noticed in many others here on the same subject. That they weren't chided for reacting as Paul did is worth noting, IMO.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Yes, Jutsa, and I talked about the behavior of others in my post as well.
I haven't personally seen anyone say "Glad your leaving" and call someone a "b*&^" over comments made in religious threads. If I had, I'd bet someone has chided them about it. If not, then IF people who saw it then are chiding now, they are certainly giving the appearance of hypocrisy.
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I've seen catty behavior and name calling comparable to Pauls over religious discussion before here. Just because they don't say the exact same words doesn't mean the behavior is different.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Pooka's post is not the same as some of the insulting posts I've read in religious threads.
The religious threads that turn ugly is usually about a hotly contested topic such as homosexuality or abortion. When you enter those threads you know your ideals will be attacked, mocked, and challenged. You also know Tom will write a really funny story about a giant purple panda, but that's another story.
The Boston thread was a celebration thread, not a debate thread. People were celebrating their joy and not looking for a punch in the nuts.
Pooka's post is similar to someone posting "get a life" in a thread called "Help Me Celebrate My Bar Mitzvah" or "My Daughter's Beautiful Communion."
Of couse, we never make those posts, because they'd be in bad taste. Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Especially the former, as some people might feel the need to assure pooka we don't want her leaving.
I disagree. This reeks more of melodrama on both sides of the argument, as I mentioned earlier. The argument will die down, and both will continue to hold a grudge. If they prove me wrong later, then that would be a great thing. However, typical human behavior dictates a continued hostile relationship even after the mean words and insults dies down.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I agree that's a likely possibility - I hope it is (minus the grudge part). But the presence of that element at all is enough to differentiate the two situations, which is enough to avoid being a hypocrite.
Certainly, I felt the need to assure her I didn't want her going, but I did that by telling her rather than chiding Paul.
quote:Certainly, I felt the need to assure her I didn't want her going, but I did that by telling her rather than chiding Paul.
Well, to be honest, the way you've handled this and situations of religious nature in other threads has been pretty admirable. Just so you know, I wasn't implicating you. In fact, I couldn't name one single person, because I don't really keep a score anywhere.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I thought biting one's thumb went the way of Baroque music and the Vikings. This is great, now all we need are some true, Shakespearean insults (as in higher quality than "meanie")!
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Thank you. I didn't think you were talking about me, both because I hadn't posted here and have quite the ego .
This raises an interesting question of community hypocrisy - if no one person is actually hypocritical, but the actions of the community taken as a whole are, what do you call it?
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Some of us are trying to watch Scott and Celia fight here. (It's like The Clash of the Titans, except Scott is niether 600 feet tall, nor does he appear to be turning to stone).
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No, but I weigh 600 pounds, and have a kidney stone. . . do those count as titanic properties?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I wasn't talking about katharina in particular, and even she recognized that.
I did actually think you were talking about me in particular, but since I also have an enormous ego and after two seconds of self-examination decided that the description didn't fit me, I ignored it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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You know why I made the comparison to religion? Because baseball is as important to me as thier religion is to the religious members of this site, many of whom post celebration threads or community threads... not because of specific characteristics that may or may not be shared between baseball and religion.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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I will say Paul, even after reading your inital post in the Sox thread, I didn't realize *how* important baseball was to you, until I witnessed your reactions to pooka's comment. I read the whole thing including Pooka's post just before I left work yesterday and it all blew up, and I was shocked that it had done so because it seemed like more of the usual Hatrack banter to me. But like I said, I didn't truly understand how deeply you actually felt about it.
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(It's like The Clash of the Titans, except Scott is niether 600 feet tall, nor does he appear to be turning to stone).
