posted
Seriously... a few more creepy guy stories, and I'll be almost competing with mack's car stories.
One of my professors is over eighty years old. He's French, and he's really eccentric... the course has seven people in it, five of whom are girls. We've forgiven his eccentricity so far, even though he has a tendency to assign someone to present about a ten volume work three days later.
There's a girl, Abby, who's twenty years old... she doesn't live in the dorms on campus, she lives in an apartment near Damascus Gate. She found out a few weeks ago that she and the professor are neighbors. One day, it was pouring rain; the course finishes at 6:00pm, so instead of making her walk all that way at night in the rain, he offered her a ride home. Totally plausible, right? She accepted gratefully.
The whole car ride, he held her hand and fondled it with the hand that wasn't on the steering wheel. Every time she pulled it back, he leaned over and took it again (I know this because she told me the story). When they got there, he parked up against a wall, so she couldn't immediately leap out of the car, and then he leaned in to her and started kissing her neck.
This man is over eighty freaking years old. He's married, has three children, and a grandson. Even if he were the sexiest man alive, and twenty years old, however, this would be unacceptable behavior... this is sexual harrassment. Abby went to the undergrad office the next day and told the director, or the chair, or whatever he's called. She also dropped the class (I didn't notice that she'd dropped because I haven't been in class the past couple weeks... my cousin's death and everything). But today I saw her, and she told me... there are now four girls in that class, and two boys. I'm scared stiff... I have to meet one-on-one with this professor to complete the midterm, which I missed, as it was at the same time as the funeral, and that would take about an hour and a half. Of just me in a room alone with him.
Um... I don't know what to do. Should I drop the class? Should I pretend like this didn't happen? Should I... I dunno, I'm out of ideas. Help!
posted
I imagine the director of the department will handle it since she filed the complaint. I would just wait and see what the school does with the information first...
posted
Make sure you go with a friend. There is absolutely no reason why these meetings have to be behind closed doors.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
A friend? This is the midterm... I dunno if I can do that.
Mph, I agree... I did say that, actually. It's horrible.
Farmgirl, you'd think that the director would do something, but this happened almost three weeks ago... I only heard about it now because I'd been gone, but she told him about it 12 hours after it happened. Three weeks later, he hasn't done anything.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
All the girls in the class should go to the director and ask him what he is going to do. If necessary, go higher up. Bring tape recorders.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I wouldn't drop the class just yet... he might behave differently on school property than in his car. I would, however, be prepared to tell him to back off if he gets too close to you and stand up and walk out if he tries to touch you. And then, of course, also go and tell a school authority. With two of you in two weeks, he really should be at least disciplined.
The thing with your friend's story.... obviously, she might not have told you the whole thing, but you just said every time she pulled her hand away he reached over and took it again.
It's really hard at first, because you're startled and uncomfortable and don't know what to do, but I cannot stress enough the value of saying things like "No," "Stop that" "I don't like that" aand "What the hell do you think you're doing?" Pulling hands back and forth can be seen by certain deluded individuals, especially ones from other generations, as flirting. Parking with her door up against a wall? Just giving him a chance to persude her... not involuntary imprisonment.
Again, certainly, in no way was this guy in the right and your friend in the wrong. But if you find yourself in a situation like this, please try to calmly, clearly, and loudly tell him to stop... and in this exact situation, I also would have tried to open the car door and get out at a stopsign or something. You have no obligation to be polite, and if he's already causing problems with one hand on the whell you probably don't want to be in the car with him when it stops.
As always, you need to do what makes you comfortable. You could, you know, go talk to the director first, tell her your uncomfortable with the idea of being alone with the professor for your mid-term, and ask if someone else can proctor it or if they can arrange to have a grad student in the room with you. Which is just circumventing a potential problem in the first place, which I tend to think is the best course. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
They could hardly object to a friend studying across the room while you worked on the midterm with the professor in the room. Particularly if the friend isn't in the class.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
If it were me, I would insist on bringing a male friend with me to the midterm. (I wouldn't ask. I would just bring him with me.) He can just sit there quietly while you take the test. His presence should be enough.
I would bet that nothing has happened because they figure it will just go away on its own--and it will if your friend doesn't get vocal about it. That's up to her, though. She has the right to force the issue if she wants to. At the most, they've probably sent him a letter or talked to him.
posted
Raia, if the professor would be in the room as well, why couldn't you bring another person to the midterm? It is not as if you could cheat with your professor right there in the room.
If you are uncomfortable with bringing a friend, see if you could ask a TA or a counselor to come with you.
And if your professor absolutely objects, at least have a friend wait for you outside of the room. There's no way any reasonable professor could object to that.
posted
If the professor objects then ask him who would be suitable to have with you while you take it. if he asks why, say you've had some bad experiences in the recent past, which is true, and you don't feel comfortable alone with men right now.
*shrugs* That's what I would do at least. I'm pretty sure he won't object. Heck, you could just take Maya and say there's been a family emergency and you really have to babysit her.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
vwiggin, that's not why it's unacceptabe. It's unacceptable because he forced sexual attention on a woman who didn't want it, under pretenses of taking her home.
The others just make it worse.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Its unacceptable cause he mollested(sp?) her! Kissing someone against their will like that, when you've got them rather pinned there so they can't get away without having to get phyiscal to remove him and get past him is NOWHERE near acceptable.
[edit]In case it wasn't clear, I was talking about Abby.[/edit]
posted
You could always wear a police whistle. On the outside where it's visible.
Not kidding - there's a lot more for him to be scared of in the department building than there is at night inside his own car.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
He hasn't done anything specifically to me, but Abby was scared out of her mind, and ran home crying that night. She hasn't quite recovered. An I don't know if he WILL do anything to me, and/or the other girls in the class (he fawns over all of us to some degree). It pisses me off that nobody is doing anything about it. But I don't have the authority to do anything!
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'd go to the head of the department and bring up that you're afraid of him, and why. It can't hurt, anyway, to get it on the record before you take any special measures not to be alone with him.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
You have the authority to complain, loudly and repeatedly, that he acts inappropriatly towards women in his class. If nothing else it might shame him into acting more appropriately. It also might cause him to trash your grade... but if you're a good student and can prove you were graded unfairly that's probably something you can deal with.
quote:vwiggin, that's not why it's unacceptabe. It's unacceptable because he forced sexual attention on a woman who didn't want it, under pretenses of taking her home.
The others just make it worse.
OK, I must be really tired, because I have no idea what this is responding to. And I know it must be a lack of understanding on my part, b/c MPH agrees with you.
posted
Weren't you intimidated by some young strapping agressive guy recently? I think you may be able start kicking butt with the eighty year old!
Especially if he is French, he personally surrendered to the Jerries already or you could combine your two problems, ask the young one to kick the ass of the old one and then arrange for him to get caught and deny everything.
posted
This is totally off topic, but could you please stop with the French-bashing? For all you know, this guy fought in the Maquis for five years, or stood against the blitzkrieg out of the Ardennes. Or both. Being French does not make him a coward.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sweetie, I hate to burst your bubble, but it's not the guys in this country.
It's just guys in general.
PC, dude, was there ever a doubt?
Raia, I know you've had a really tough time lately, but sometime in the near future (New Year's Resolution?) you need to get a backbone. I can safely say this, because I'm someone without a backbone and you don't want to end up like me. Stop thinking like a victim right now. Learn how to defend yourself, but more importantly, learn to stand up for yourself.
Also important is to learn the difference between serious, threatening situations and melodrama. Right now, your fear of what might happen is clouding what is actually happening. You need to get a grip. Now. Or you will be a victim and it won't be nearly as pretty as what you've described so far. You think Mack's stories about guys are scary? (mack, your stories are scary, but I think I could top yours. Don't you? )
I'm not trying to be harsh, but having been in serious situations, I really need you to hear that you need to learn to 1)make sure you are seeing the situation clearly 2) know how to stand up for yourself and 3) know how to defend yourself. You are not, nor have you ever been, Scarlett O'Hara. There should be no handkerchief wringing going on, no swooning, and no attacks of the vapors. Breathe. Then take a self-defense class and find a friend to practice different discussions with. Like turning a guy down for a date. Or telling a guy you aren't interested and to stop stalking you. Practice is a good thing. And self-defense classes are a good thing. No one is going to save you, so you need to save yourself. No one can protect you, so learn to protect yourself.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I don't know. I stopped watching DS9 on a regular basis after about the 2nd or 3rd season. And Enterprise ain't no prize.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
He might be very brave, just totally ineffective! Come to think about it his advances were likely to be the same, escalating from hand holding all then way to heavy snoozing. Watch out if he starts pooping Viagra though! Posts: 117 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Boon
unregistered
posted
quote: Watch out if he starts pooping Viagra though!
If the pills are still whole enough to recognize at that point, I'd venture a guess that their effectiveness will not be felt.
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This whole "stop your Scarlett O'Hara act" attitude is unjustified, because I believe I made it clear that he did nothing to me, and just scared the crap out of one of my friends. I then went on to say that she told the administration three weeks ago, and nobody did anything about it. THAT'S what scares me. Not that I think that I'm constantly a victim, and that everyone is out to get me, but that a professor sexually harrassed a student, and is getting away with it. If he knows he can get away with it, what's to stop him from doing it again?
Maybe I didn't make that clear.
Kayla, I know you meant well, but please try and make sure you understand the situation before you start chiding me for being melodramatic. Maybe it's justified, maybe I am melodramatic... I live in a world of 1940s love affairs and drama... but in this case, I think that was slightly uncalled for. I'm not saying that your post didn't make a lot of sense, because it did -- and it had a lot of great advice in it. But please, don't patronize me and treat me like a twelve year old. I'm not. And I fully understand that this situation is not about me.
Sorry if that was too much of a retaliation to your post. Maybe I should just make myself scarce for a few weeks, I've managed to really piss people off recently. I hate being in that position. Sorry, anyone whom I've annoyed. Please believe me, it was not my intention.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Maybe I should just make myself scarce for a few weeks, I've managed to really piss people off recently. I hate being in that position.
This is another case of you being too melodramatic, there is no need to be scarce, nobody is pissed at you, we are treating you as we would an equal, cajoling you to buck up rather then letting you wallow.
quote: but that a professor sexually harassed a student, and is getting away with it. If he knows he can get away with it, what's to stop him from doing it again?
How bout the fact that he is an 80 yr old man? I suspect that you could take him if you decide to fight instead of freezing up. As I said before you should welcome the opportunity to win one!
Oh well, ignore me, I think a tire iron is subtle and I certainly would hate to see you absent yourself out of some dramatic impulse, you use this list to help you find balance it is clear you need. I think that you should squelch the hurt feeling and laugh at yourself. An eighty year old man! You are scared of an octogenarian! Come on laugh!
Posts: 117 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I'm not scared because I feel threatened. I know that there's no danger. Jar Head, should I understand that you enjoy sexual harrassment, and welcome it unless there's actual physical danger?
And I don't mean to be dramatic, for heaven's sake. I just mean that maybe I need to leave, calm down a bit, and then come back. Practically every thread I've started over the past few weeks has turned into a "Raia is too dramatic, and needs to buck up and stop whining" extravaganza. Fine, if that's the case, I accept that. I need to change it. But that's not going to happen if I just sit here and get patronized by Jatraqueros. So I'll just leave for a while. It's not a permanent thing, and it's not a desperate plea for attention. Maybe if you can get off of your "Raia's an attention whore" warpath, you'd notice that I'm leaving for the sake of everyone's sanity, not so that people will feel sorry after I've left, or plead me to stay.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I recently met some 80 year old men who are not only extremely strong but also quite agile. They could certainly force their way on someone who is unprepared and weaker than they are, if they were off-kilter enough to try that.
There are probably lots of reasons why this man is the way he is. They are all irrelevant. The point is that he is sexually harrassing students, abusing a position of authority, and could be leading the school toward an expensive scandal.
I personally think that the students in this class should make an appointment to see the chair of the department and set an appointment one day later to talk to the dean of the college, and a day later to talk to the president of the university. Cancel the later appointments if you get satisfaction. Keep them if you don't and just add the inaction of the lower-level people to your list of complaints.
By the way, does this school actually HAVE a policy on sexual harrassment or some sort of student bill of rights? I mean, it sounds like some US universities in their first tentative steps towards admitting female students way back when. They learned the hard way (and are still learning) about things like date rape, abuse of power, and so on.
As for the mid-term thing, you might simply refuse to take the test without someone else in the room. If you send that notice to him in writing in advance and suggest the name of someone who can accompany you, that should be fine. Copy the department chairperson in your letter. Don't open it for discussion. Simply state that due to recent events you will not be able to take his midterm without the presence of a neutral observer who you both mutual agree upon. Make sure you copy the department chair, though.
Frankly, most professors in similar situations don't ever set up situations where they could be accused of abusing their position, or sexually harassing a student. Even office hours are conducted in a place with lots of people around, even if they are behind closed doors. And the whole thing with offering students rides would be really iffy for most professional educators because of the way it can backfire on them. Assuming they aren't actually out to abuse a student in the first place.
But that's here in the US where the level of distrust has grown with experience.
posted
Not to put too much of a point on it, but most girls are what you said! So are men, To be honest I relish danger and miss it somewhat, I feel at times that the rest of my life is just going to be a pale shadow. I have been shot at, I have stormed an embassy to take it back, I have been in countless brawls with ROC's, unruly Marines and rioting Okinawans. In high school I had football and wrestling. Now I just listen to loudmouth's on the CB and laugh and laugh.
I just know that you have to stand up to a bully period. That or you can find a guy to be your courage for you. Some feminist have said that the only reason for men is to protect women from other men, if so it is a good purpose.
Maybe you should post about some minor intellectual topic and float that. The problem could be that you are venting too hot a plasma. You seem to be what one of my friends calls a JAP, Jewish American princess, sheltered from reality and shocked by it. If I am wrong then sorry, but you have to get past your expectations and preconceptions and start dealing effectively with the world as it is.
Posts: 117 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I'm not laughing, or telling you to buck up. This stuff is serious.
I could maybe wish for you to deal with these things differently rather than worry about that they MIGHT happen to you too. But that's also out of concern for your safety and well-being, not because I think you're incapable of taking care of the situation.
You're in it. We're not.
But these guys are bad.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Jar Head, not everyone can have your experiences.
If this was one of my professors and I in a similar situation, I would be anxious too.
I'm not being melodramatic here, and it doesn't generally affect my day-to-day life, but I live every day with the knowledge that I could be someone's victim, just because I was born with different parts than men.
And a bully in the schoolyard, that's different than a professor who is sexually harassing a student. Professors - especially in non-science courses - can be extremely arbitrary in grading. I would fear that almost as much as an actual attempt. I could probably fend someone off, in a school building, or yell for help. But I'd also be afraid of what could happen to my grade. Personally, I live in a very tenuous situation with my grades, so don't tell me that that's irrelevant. I walk a fine line to keep my academic scholarship, and one antagonistic professor, one class, could lose me that money, money which I desperately need to stay in school. Don't judge someone's situation until you are in it.
If not having dealt with sexual harassment is "sheltered," then good. More women (and men) should be so sheltered. Women shouldn't have to be "accustomed" to it. I should certainly HOPE she'd be shocked by finding out her professor has done such things.
(((Raia))) Tell him the door needs to be left open. I can't imagine a prof refusing that, not in such a situation. What, is someone going to run down the hall and yell the answers to you? Claim you want the air circulation.
If you don't think you can get away with that (or even if you do), do what everyone has said - bring a friend. Don't ask, just send that email Bob mentioned, and copy it to an admin, and make sure he knows you did.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Jar Head, have you thought about joining one of the paramilitary mercenary organizations that are active in the world's various hotspots? Sounds like you'd get satisfaction from doing so. Considering the lifetime stretching before you a pale shadow of what came before would be a fairly depressing thing, I'd think.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Jewish American Princess ? I don't think I ever heard such a stupidity... I am not Jewish neither American, and still I would react as Raia is if someone sexually harassed a friend of mine and no one acted after that ! As she said, she never said she was in real, big danger - a 80 years old is not usually able to rape someone. BUT she has every right on her body, and especially not wanting to share it with a pervert ! It's not normal that we, women, have to be aware that these things happen and it's not normal that nearly no woman older than 20 has had these kind of experiment.
[ December 07, 2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote: I then went on to say that she told the administration three weeks ago, and nobody did anything about it.
This is the crux of the matter. A man with significant power over his students' futures does not seem bound by the furthest bounds of decency, and the administration doesn't care.
This strongly suggests to me that he's operated this way for years, he considers it his due, and will react poorly to any perceived threat to his current power.
There's no violent solution to this. "Buck up and deal with it" isn't a solution, either. Complaining about the second man in a month who has decided his will is more important than a person's right to control of their own person makes sense. And here's a good place to do it, where she has friends. Or, at least, I thought it was a good place to do it.
posted
Thank you Dagonee, for pointing out what the point is.
(((Raia))) Please come back. I personally do not think you are melodramatic or overreacting or wanting too much attention. And I am sure there's a lot of others like me. So please don't go.
Posts: 1247 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Certain people who have posted in this thread just don't get it, Raia. Please ignore them and let us hug you. (((hug)))
You're going to handle it fine. I agree with the sending notice to the prof. and the administration, then bringing a friend and keeping the door open. If there have been many complaints about this man over the years, maybe you need to warn stufents about him. (Not until you get your grade, but you can start trying to put things in motion.) There was a teacher at my HS who routinely harassed his female students for 20 years, and wasn't fired. (He also gave arbitrary grades, but that's another matter.) He was complained about; he never had full classes because girls' parents would demand that they be transferred out of his class; he married a student two months after she graduated, then went right on doing this; the school did nothing. He had tenure, they wouldn't fire him. They finally forced him into early retirement when they were threatened with a lawsuit by a parent whose daughter had been routinely harassed, then failed when she complained about it.
I'm very sorry you're in this situation. And I'm sorry you feel helpless. But maybe just talking to others is what you need to do to fix it.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:are not, nor have you ever been, Scarlett O'Hara.
As a complete side note, Scarlett O'Hara could handle herself just fine. She shot a man in the face when she thought he was going to steal their supper, she smuggled herself and her family through the Yankee Army, she contracted with convicts, and when her drunk and desperate husband put his hands around her neck, she told him he was a scoundrel and to get his hands off in no uncertain terms.
Striving to BE Scarlett O'Hara in these kinds of situations would be a very worthwhile goal.
Added: Oh, and Jar Head's an idiot. But you knew that.
posted
Raia, sorry if you thought I was saying I thought you were being melodramatic in this particular situation. I wasn't. I was telling you that you need to learn the difference. And learn to stand up for yourself. In this case, taking someone with you to make sure that you aren't harassed while taking a test and possibly getting the entire class to go to the dean and find out what is happening with the situation and what further steps they are taking to ensure your safety are all good things to do. Practicing with a friend for the confrontation you fear that will occur if you bring someone to the test would be a good thing. Practicing what you want to say to the dean would be good. Learning self-defense in case the next time it is you rather than a friend and the professor isn't 80 would also be a good thing. But like I said, learning the difference between real danger and melodrama would be good, too. And not probably not for the reasons you think. You need to really know when you are in danger. You need to be aware of your surroundings and what the people around you are doing. You need to be able to plan ahead and figure out how you could get out of situation. But you can't do any of those things if you are so nervous you can't even tell a guy on the phone to stop calling you. I'm not saying to suck it up. I'm saying to be the strong woman you are capable of being. And again, I'm not saying that this situation is melodramatic. It's serious. You need to take it seriously and stand up for yourself and demand that you not be alone with him while doing your mid-term.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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