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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Star Wars(Getting Worse?) (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Star Wars(Getting Worse?)
Ginol_Enam
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quote:
What about rumors of postquels (there's probably a better term)?
Like, say, "sequel?" [Wink]

Anyway, if Star Wars sequels are ever made, it will be long after George Lucas is dead and the license has been handed off to someone else. Lucas has made it very clear that, at least as far as movies go, Star Wars is his baby and everyone else can go do some vulgar thing. And George Lucas has said again and again that there will be no more Star Wars movies after Episode III.

Although, there are those rumors about a post RotJ TV series with Kevin Smith at the helm and Mark Hamill doing occasional appearances as Luke...

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bCurt
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quote:
Like, say, "sequel?"
I knew I was the victim of a brain fart but couldn't get past it! [Big Grin]

I hardly ever believe anyone in the movie industry when they say they will never do this or that or that they will do this or that. I recently read of the rumor from a source that a felt could have some validity but honestly can't remember where. It was mentioned from an angle that Lucas is reconsidering sequels.

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WheatPuppet
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Ummm... creepy. The last two seconds of "Tragic Kingdom" by No Doubt have a little quote from the Star Wars theme song that I had never noticed until I was reading this thread and it happened to come up on iTunes Party Shuffle. I swear, the man is just screwing with my head! [Angst]

I heard that a Star Wars TV series was in the works. There seemed to be some buzz that Kevin Smith was going to direct, since he's a huge Star Wars fan. I'm not holding my breath, nor am I setting any expectations, despite how awesome Kevin Smith is.

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Goody Scrivener
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quote:
Email me if anyone is interested. And be very glad my friend decided against making his LD backups to betamax instead.
Well, I tried to email and the board told me I wasn't allowed.... I'd love a set of these, please! Let me know what you want me to send for them ... blank media, money, my firstborn child... [ROFL]
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mr_porteiro_head
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I remember Lucas saying that he would never release Star Wars on DVD.
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Papa Moose
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quote:
at the end of the day...

Will star wars III be worth 6.50?

Nah, end of the day it'll be like 9 bucks. $6.50 is before 5:00 or so.
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neo-dragon
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I'm a pretty big Star Wars fan and I enjoy the prequels. Most of my friends (who are at best only casual Star Wars fans) like them okay as well. We're all in our early 20s if you're wondering. I grew up with the originals too, and while they are superior in a number of ways, I've always thought that the prequels have a lot going for them as well. And based on what we know has to occur in episode III (ie. birth of Vader, the duel, the fall of the jedi, the birth of the twins, Padme's fate, the rise of the empire, etc.), I can't imagine anyone who calls him/herself a Star Wars fan not looking forward to seeing that stuff, no matter how you feel about eps. I and II. Revenge of the Sith will finally show us the events which we've only imagined for decades. Love the prequels or hate them, we've come this far so let's all see it through to the end.
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Lyrhawn
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Lucas has only made three movies (all star wars) in the last eight years. I think as stand alone films, as its own triology, they are very good. And I think that will all be wrapped together and cemented with RotS.

And I think there will be more Star Wars stuff. Lucas has said that he doesn't want to be a part of it (probably because he didn't write any of it) but that he thinks its possible for someone else to do another trilogy (Almost certainly the Thrawn Trilogy), but he said it's also likely that a television series of some sort would also be a possibility, since there is so much to the Extended Universe. It'll be hard to get EVERYONE excited about future movies though, only hard core fans read anything about the EU.

[ January 05, 2005, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

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neo-dragon
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The Thrawn Trilogy is good but I don't think that adapting it into movies would be a good idea. They're just too similar to the originals in many ways. Probably because they are the first entries in the "modern" EU, so Zahn didn't want to stray too far from what Lucus had established. I mean, the end of "The Last Command" is pretty similar to that of "Return of the Jedi" when you think about it. In any case, if sequel films were ever made they would probably just ignore and overwrite all the expanded universe stuff. Otherwise, whoever made the films would be far too restricted, and only those hardcore fans who know the EU well would have any idea what's going on: "Mara Jade? Jacen Solo? Hey... where's Chewie?! wtf!"
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Lyrhawn
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I'm not sure Lucas would let them ignore and overwrite it. Remember all the stuff in the EU is approved by Lucas and Lucasbooks/Lucasfilm before it can be published under that name.

What other EU trilogy or book could they do? If they did Shadows of the Empire they'd have to get new actors to play the principle characters, which is gonna bring about a HUGE debate. New Jedi Order would be a horrible idea, there's just too much that isn't explained for it to possibly function. I think at some point they have to say "not everyone is gonna understand this, let's just do the best we can."

And I don't think they'd let Thrawn go just because it's too similar to the original three, it has a lot of different elements in it. The Empire almost always lost any major combat in the original trilogy, but they rock in this one, plus the character of Talon Karrde (probably comparable to Han Solo) is still very compelling and just different enough from Han to make his storyline different. I'd be excited to see it, Thrawn is unlike most any villain i can think of. He doesn't really even seem to want power, he just wants to preserve the Empire for someone else.

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neo-dragon
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Don't forget that Lucas himself has pretty much ignored the EU whenever he's felt like it. The whole Clone Wars is a good example. The Thrawn Trilogy said that the Republic fought against clones, and that the war occured earlier in the timeline. It also describes the production of the clones themselves differently. There's also the origins of Boba Fett, storm troopers, and the Sith, and even the rules about jedi marrying. I even heard that Lucas wasn't going to use the name "Coruscant" (which originally came from the EU)until someone told him that the 'city planet' aleady had a name! Fans and authors have come up with 'fixes' for most of these things, but the truth of the matter is that Lucas himself knows/cares very little about the EU. It's his people who read and authorize the stuff. He's only informed of the major stuff. ie. He had to personally authorize a certain event in "Vector Prime" (I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but I'm sure you know what I mean). That's why many fans consider the EU to be fan-fiction. I personally don't think of it that way, but I understand that the novels are at a slightly lower level of Star Wars canon that the films.
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Lyrhawn
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That's a good point, I forgot about the Boba Fett screw up, which really angered me in the second movie.

But I still think that the jedi will fight against the clones. It's obvious by now that Palpatine has tricked the Republic into building a massive army with him at its head, and on the other hand he has created a rebellion faction that will fight against the republic, creating the need for the army he controls. It's very clever, but when everyone realizes that he is taking over they will fight against the clones.

I guess you're right in general about the EU and Lucas. I'm just wishfully thinking [Smile]

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neo-dragon
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The way I see it, the best case scenario is that sequel films would take place far enough in the future that the current EU wouldn't have to be directly referenced or contradicted. Say, 50 years after Return of the Jedi. They would obviously star a new generation of characters, but Luke and the gang could still be alive to play smaller parts. ie. Luke as the aged mentor this time.
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Lyrhawn
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That'd be weird, but I like the idea!

You still need Jacen/Jaina/Ben Skywalker and Mara though. Though if you kill Luke and Mara off from old age all together, it's not so much a problem.

It certainly has a lot of merit. That way no one argues about preconcieved notions they had. My question would be: What is the conflict? Peace is signed with the Empire, the ::coughcoughchoke:: Vong are taken care of on their weird little planet. If the New Republic reigns as long as the Old Republic, there isn't any conflict, and no story.

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Ginol_Enam
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A sequel trilogy would be horrible. What would it be about? The six films are all about the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Since he dies in Episode VI, what would VII, VIII, or IX be about? I just can't see it working.

If there was another trilogy of movies (or even just one or two movies; they don't haveto come in threes), it would best be about something completely unrelated to the Skywalker clan. There's so much EU based in the years right before and soon after the movies, it would be best for a new movie/duology/trilogy to be far more separate. Preferably far into the future (like, centuries or millenia), since there are comics and stuff already in the past.

It would be neat. Since it would be so long after any EU stuff, GL (or whoever) wouldn't have to worry too much about spoiling any EU stuff (well, more correctly, the fans wouldn't have to worry; GL wouldn't really care). There would be near limitless freedom as to what the trilogy could do.

It could be great.

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Choobak
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I trusted G. Lucas wrote 3 trilogies. So, what will hapen about the last trilogy ? Many rumors claim G. Lucas doesn't make it himself but aren't against somebody realise it.

Any comment ?

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TomDavidson
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"I can't imagine anyone who calls him/herself a Star Wars fan not looking forward to seeing that stuff, no matter how you feel about eps. I and II."

It's not that I'm not looking forward to seeing this stuff, but that I'd rather leave it to my imagination if Lucas is just going to urinate all over it.

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Sopwith
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There is something difficult in dealing with a rabid fanbase such as they have with Star Wars.

And that is that the guy at the helm, old GL, has seen his movies nowhere as many times as his fans have. How could he know every nuance of his work as well as his fans?

It's got to be like when William Shatner gets asked about some piece of minutiae from one of the original Star Trek episodes. As he said in a sketch on SNL about just such an incident, "Get out of your mom's basement, get a life and kiss a girl, would you?"

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I trusted G. Lucas
That was your first mistake.

I sadly, have made the same mistake. [Frown]

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Choobak
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fun, Monsieur Patate ! [ROFL] I like your joke style !
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mr_porteiro_head
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Am I a Monsieur now? Do I need to go out and buy a special outfit?
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Choobak
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your NickName Mr Porteiro head let me think to the famous toy : Monsieur Patate. [Smile]
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mr_porteiro_head
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It's supposed to. [Smile]
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bCurt
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quote:
I trusted G. Lucas wrote 3 trilogies.
That is what I understand from what I read. I wonder how much he actually wrote or just sketched out.

What else is George Lucas going to do? As already mentioned he hasn't done much for some years but work on the prequels (as far as movies go). He'll be involved with the next Indiana Jones movie but what about after that? I think he will be tempted to do the sequels and if he goes for it, hopefully it will be on a more limited participation basis. Imagine what a good screenwriter and director could do with them.

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sarcasticmuppet
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I'd kinda like to see something set in the Old Republic, waaaay back when (like when the KOTOR videogame is set). That would be pretty cool.
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AvidReader
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I'd go older than KotOR. I'd go with the Ulric Qel-Droma story line. That's the one where the Sith about dominate the entire galaxy before Cay Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider manage to turn Ulric back to the light side and bring down the Sith. It's one of the comic book series right now. Good stuff.
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neo-dragon
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"I trusted G. Lucas wrote 3 trilogies. So, what will hapen about the last trilogy ? Many rumors claim G. Lucas doesn't make it himself but aren't against somebody realise it."

As I understand it, Lucas abandoned the idea of 3 trilogies back while he was still working on the original one. In fact, much of what was supposed to be in the third trilogy went into Episode VI instead. For example, Luke would not have confronted the Emperor until the sequel trilogy if Lucas has stuck to his original plan.

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TomDavidson
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"That's the one where the Sith about dominate the entire galaxy before Cay Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider manage to turn Ulric back to the light side and bring down the Sith."

One of the things that's always bothered me about the SWU is how easy it appears to be for evil to dominate the entire galaxy; the forces of good always seem to find it a lot harder.

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mr_porteiro_head
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It's bothersome, but no more so than real life.
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SteveRogers
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wow.................you guys made this about ten times more of a conflict than I ever planned........its awesome......so many conflicting views........keep it up
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AvidReader
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quote:
One of the things that's always bothered me about the SWU is how easy it appears to be for evil to dominate the entire galaxy; the forces of good always seem to find it a lot harder.
Huh. Never really thought about it before. I guess it's so common, I just accept the idea without question.

I'm thinking back historically now. Hitler was part of the "evil turns on itself" camp, but didn't Stalin stay in power after killing a bunch of his own? [Blushing] I have to admit, I can't think of the fates of more than a handful historical figures. I think I'll need to take a few history courses when I go back to school.

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Paul Goldner
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I don't know, Tom. THe Old Republic stands for an awful long time, is usurped by Palpatine, and then after a very short period of time he is overthrown. Meteoric rise to dominance, and then stagnation and collapse, seems to be what a lot of brutal tyrannies do.
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TomDavidson
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Yeah, but none of the stories are about the wise and long-time rule of the Old Republic -- or the New, for that matter. Probably because it makes for a better story, all the tales are about the meteoric rise of evil. [Smile]
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
One of the things that's always bothered me about the SWU is how easy it appears to be for evil to dominate the entire galaxy; the forces of good always seem to find it a lot harder.
That's because in general it's harder for good to triumph over evil. Evil is more seductive, a constant theme in the Star Wars universe. That's what makes the scene where Vader kills the Emperor so powerful, because Vader had spent so much time in the thrall of evil that coming back to the light was that much harder. The problem that universe faces is complacency, every time they manage to conquer in the name of good, they forget that evil exists, except for the few vigilant ones, the Jedi, who are themselves seduced by evil.

The storyline with Qel-Droma would be interesting to do. It's set in the same universe, but other than there being Jedi, the Force, and the universe it bears no similiarities to the original trilogies. Nomi Sunrider was always one of my favorite characters, I'd love to see a live action version of it. But it'll be painful to see Uleq go over to the dark side.

I highly doubt Lucas will do any of it. He hasn't even been involved in directing a majority of the Star Wars films. He wrote them all, controlled the storyline, and that was his imprint. He doesn't need the money, even if he just had ILM he could live off that forever. I think he will hand it over to someone else, someone younger, and someone more in touch with the fanbase that he obviously has some trouble reaching now.

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Paul Goldner
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Clone wars is world war I, rise of palpatine rise of hitler and stalin, death of palpatine is death of hitler and fall of germany, collapse of soviet union is the slow fall of the empire? *Shrug* Timeline works reasonably well for me I guess [Smile]
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SteveRogers
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Some people think Hitler is still alive
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WheatPuppet
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My conflicting and antagonistic viewpoint:
Knights of the Old Republic is the best Star Wars movie since RotJ.

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SteveRogers
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quote:
Knights of the Old Republic is the best Star Wars movie since RotJ.
I didn't even know they had a movie called that. Is there one?
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Chris Bridges
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Before I begin, let me establish a few things.

I don't bitch for the sake of bitching. I don't nitpick movies for the joy of finding mistakes in someone else's work. Nor do I think my concepts for a movie should override those of the people who actually worked on the movie. I don't care about cigarettes that jump from hand to hand in different scenes, or stagehands reflected in windows, or the minor inconsistencies that pop up in every movie.

I love the first three movies even though they had flaws and plot holes that could swallow a small moon. I can even accept the existence of Jar-Jar and other silly bits because like it or not the Star Wars movies were always intended for kids. They're Saturday afternoon matinee movies, cliffhangers, the type that used to be serialized.

And I do, in fact, like the general plot of the three prequels. It makes sense, it ties together a lot of loose ends (loose beginnings?) and it does an excellent job of explaining how the Empire was forged, and where the Rebels came from, and what happened to the Jedis.

What bothered me, what disapppointed me, was the little stuff. Stuff that added to the flair of the first three and seems completely missing from the new ones. Stuff that knocks me out of the movie because even my belief-suspended brain can't let it go.

Some of the little things that bugged me, in no particular order:

Aliens with accents like foreigners in 50's movies.

The pod race where there was never, ever, the slightest hint that Mannakin was using the Force, even subconsciously. The race was too long and there was no real sense of danger or effort on his part.

There's a lot of suffering mentioned on Naboo, but never any shown. In fact, as far as I can tell no one lives on Naboo besides the Gungans, the palace personnel, and the hordes of people brought out to cheer parades.

The introduction of C3PO and R2D2 in a location that Vader should have remembered later on. With luck the third movie will address that, and why Darth Vader didn't recognize them. Or, for that matter, the planet he was, you know, enslaved on. Were I him in "Star Wars" and I saw the droids' capsule crash land, I'd head straight to my old stomping grounds and start shooting, just to save time.

R2D2's jet packs. Boy, those would have been handy later on...

Mannakin apparently forgetting about his slave mother for 10 years. Jedis don't get paid? Couldn't he have direct-deposited some of his cash towards a freedom fund or something?

Not getting to see any of Mannakin's training, or his early wonder at his own abilities.

The apparent lack of journalism. If I heard rumors about a blockade, I'd at least send a photographer to check.

The lack of any good lines or mannerisms. Why should I like these people?

The lack of any reason to like Darth Maul. Ooh, he's got tattoos and a dark cloak. Ooh, he can spin around real good. So what? Let's see some casual cruelty, or personal quirk, or anything to convince me he's there for any reason besides providing a new action figure. The final battle scene when he's on one side of a clear wall, Qui-Gon-Jin's in the middle, and Obi-Wan is on the other end annoyed me like you wouldn't believe. What exactly was the purpose of that?
(I should mention here that I felt exactly the same way about Bobba Fett, who was built up and discarded in the same useless cardboard manner.)

Jar-Jar becoming a general, and then a planetary representative. Please. Comic relief is one thing, don't insult me.

The Jedi Council deciding that Mannakin was too old and powerful to train. And the reasoning here is...? Nah, this gun's too powerful to use against our enemies, let's toss it out in the street.

The mitichlorians. The who? Where the hell did those come from?

It's not that the prequels have more plot problems than the original trilogy - they likely don't - but that the prequels don't have enough reason for me to become emotionally invested in them, and so I notice the plot holes more.

[ January 05, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]

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Sara Sasse
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Adolf Hitler's birthdate: April 20, 1889
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Chris Bridges
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Why can evil dominate so quickly? Because it's easier.

What's faster, ruling over a kingdom because of your reputation for fair and honest justice? Or ruling over it because you execute everyone you don't like?

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SteveRogers
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Sara....Sara....Sara.........that doesn't prove anything. Its possible...........it wouldn't suprise me to find his tyranny once again striking the earth. Only this time he would be old and bald.......and he wouldn't have that annoying little mustache.
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Papa Moose
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Because you implicitly asked for it:
quote:
I love the first three movies even though they had flaws and plot holes that could swallow a small moon.
That's no moon....
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mr_porteiro_head
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[ROFL]
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Sara Sasse
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... and 115.5 years old.

Making him the oldest human ever on verifiable record.

[ January 05, 2005, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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WheatPuppet
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quote:
I didn't even know they had a movie called that. Is there one?
Nope. It's one of the best liner RPGs ever made, IMO, and has some very good cinematics.
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mr_porteiro_head
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What's a liner RPG?
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Ginol_Enam
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quote:
Aliens with accents like foreigners in 50's movies.
Who? Like Watto? So?

quote:
The pod race where there was never, ever, the slightest hint that Mannakin was using the Force, even subconsciously. The race was too long and there was no real sense of danger or effort on his part. Apparently he used the Force to stay on course and avoid blowing up, but we never get a sense of it.
First, is there some joke I'm not getting about spelling Anakin Mannakin? Just a curious question..

And I think the point was that it was just coming to Anakin. We was able to see the immediate future just instinctively without any need to meditate. Similar to how the Jedi are using the Force to sense where the lasers are coming from, but they don't need to meditate, visibly anyway, once they've mastered it. Its a sign of Anakin's strength.

I could see how that could bother someone though.

quote:
There's a lot of suffering mentioned on naboo, but never any shown. In fact, as far as I can tell no one lives on Naboo besides the Gungans, the palace personnel, and the hordes of people brought out to cheer parades.
That always bugged me too... Although, if you look at the deleted scenes from the Episode II DVD, you get to meet Padme's family and get a small sense of what a Nabooian (Nubian?) household is like.

quote:
The introduction of C3PO and R2D2 in a location that he should have remembered when he crashed landed there later. With luck the third movie will address that, and why Darth Vader didn't recognize them. Or, for that matter, the planet he was enslaved on. Were I him in "Star Wars" and I saw the droids' capsule crash land, I'd head straight to my old stomping grounds and start shooting, just to save time.
Droids get their memory wiped all the time. C3PO's has most definetely. I personally think R2D2's wasn't, making the only non-Force user to known exactly what happened in all three movies.

Notice how he remembers Obi-Wan but Threepio doesn't.

And the droids hardly have distinctive looks when it comes ot the Star Wars galaxy as a whole. There are tons of protocal droids and astromech droids that would just like, or very similar, to Threepio and R2. There's no reason Vader would think that they were his droids (if he even saw them, which I don't think he did). And there was no reason for Vader to go down and search for the droids himself. I dount he really cared, anymore, that he grew up on Tatooine. He just want the Death Star plans.

quote:
R2D2's jet packs. Boy, those would have been handy later on...
The warranty ran out. I'm not kidding. That's the official reason R2 never uses his jet backs in IV, V, or VI.

quote:
Mannakin apparently forgetting about his slave mother for 10 years. Jedis don't get paid? Couldn't he have direct-deposited some of his cash towards a freedom fund or something?
He didn't forget, but as a Jedi, he's not supposed to have any attachments. Even if he had free time, I doubt the Council or Obi-Wan would have given him permission to see her. It would be step backwards. It wasn't until he was out from under the eyes of Obi-Wan that he could sneak to his mother (you'll notice Anakin says that protecting Padme was his first mission alone).

quote:
Not getting to see any of Mannakin's training, or his early wonder at his own abilities.
That would be neat, but there's no way Lucas could have fit that into a movie without getting way off of the main plot of the rise of the Empire and such. If you're really interested, there are several books that take place during Anakin's training...

quote:
The apparent lack of journalism. If I heard rumors about a blockade, I'd at least send a photographer to check.
There weren't any journalists in the Classic Trilogy, either... Unless this is just Star Wars in general...

quote:
The lack of any good lines or mannerisms. Why should I like these people?
*cough*

quote:
The lack of any reason to like Darth Maul. Ooh, he's got tattoos and a dark cloak. Ooh, he can spin around real good. So what? Let's see some casual cruelty, or personal quirk, or anything to convince me he's there for any reason besides providing a new action figure. The final battle scene when he's on one side of a clear wall, Qui-Gon-Jin's in the middle, and Obi-Wan is on the other end annoyed me like you wouldn't believe. What exactly was the purpose of that? (I should mention here that I felt exactly the same way about Bobba Fett, who was built up and discarded in the same useless cardboard manner.)
Sidious needed the go-getter, gopher type guy so he trained Maul to do so. Maul was taken as a child and brainwashed into hating the Jedi and loving the Sith. He's not supposed to be anything more than a guy Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon could fight.

quote:
Jar-Jar becoming a general, and then a planetary representative. Please. Comic relief is one thing, don't insult me.
The general thing was stupid. It is possible to see reasoning behind him being a representative, though, if you stretch your mind (he was exposed to it in TPM than any other Gungan was before), but yeah, I mostly agree.

quote:
The Jedi Council deciding that Mannakin was too old and powerful to train. And the reasoning here is...? Nah, this gun's too powerful to use against our enemies, let's toss it out in the street.
He wasn't too powerful, just too old. The Jedi believe that because of Anakin's age, the switch to Jedi training would be too much of a change for him to really adapt as well as a Padawan who has been in training since infancy. Anakin also had attachments and fears that normal Padawans normally don't have. The Jedi were afraid that Anakin would fall to the dark side, or ultimately fail his training in some way, because of these attachments and fears, and rightly so. It was why Yoda was reluctant to train Luke in ESB.

quote:
The mitichlorians. The who? Where the hell did those come from?
Obi-Wan and Yoda were training Luke to be a weapon against the Empire, so they didn't really have time to explain any scientific reasonings about the Force to Luke.

As to why the midichlorians exist, I think they're supposed to pay off in RotS. :-\

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Dagonee
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quote:
That's the one where the Sith about dominate the entire galaxy before Cay Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider manage to turn Ulric back to the light side and bring down the Sith.
I didn't think they came close to dominating the galaxy, unless they've fleshed out the story more in the last 5 years.

They stop Ulic, he rats out Kun, and then the Jedi just vaporize him. There's never any suggestion he was stronger than the jedi together, just able to beat them when he took them by surprise or in small numbers.

But, it's been a long time. I could be wrong.

In a similar vein, the reason I bet SWG never really took off was that it was too hard to be a jedi. People play the game because they want to swing a light saber. They should have set it in the Old Republic and let the Jedi wannabes (like me [Smile] ) go to town. I really think they don't get what people like about the universe.

Dagonee

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mr_porteiro_head
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That's a re-occuring problem with all kinds of games. When magic becomes too common, it's not magic or special anymore.

Everybody wants to be the special ones.

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