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Keep in mind, Episodes V and VI are Boba Fett, whereas I and II are Jango Fett.
I entirely love the idea of a scene where Anakin is walking away from a burning village. I think he does a good job later of capturing his anger when he is telling Padme what he did, but I love the image of that scene (the one you described wanting). I can tell you why it wasn't in the movie though. Wouldn't have been PG. Ep. III as PG-13 is risky enough, Lucas didn't want Ep. II to be that dark.
I might agree with that assessment of the Anakin/Obiwan duel. But we'll have to wait and see. I don't have as much of a disdain for CGI as many folks do.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Oh, I love CGI - as long as it blends together with the actors.
My complaint is that it looks like two entirely different things going on - in the trailers, two men battling with all hell breaking loose in the background.
Unfortunately, you could substitute "two men having lunch with all hell breaking loose in the background" and have the same feeling I get from the trailers.
As for not being too dark, then a different "fall from grace" moment should have been used. Finding your mother hanging from a torture rack is not a light-hearted experience and should have been handled accordingly.
In my humble opinion. Even something resembling the carnage at Uncle Owen and Aunt Bea's farm would have been acceptable for providing a sense of relative emotional impact regarding what has been wrought by his hand.
And I'm sorry, but the sob story he tells after the fact sounds more like he lost a favorite toy than just having butchered an entire village.
-Trevor
Edit: Your point regarding the two different Fetts is well made, but still - Jango was flopping around in a decidedly unimpressive manner.
It's possible I'm spoiled by CGI-enhanced fighting and the notion of wire-aided combat, but for as large a budget as Lucas had to waste, I would have liked something that didn't look like it came off the Hercules Blooper Reel.
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"Oh, I love CGI - as long as it blends together with the actors."
I can agree with that, and with your complaint. We'll just have to see how it is in the movie. The trailer has it's drawbacks, but it is just a trailer.
"And I'm sorry, but the sob story he tells after the fact sounds more like he lost a favorite toy than just having butchered an entire village."
I don't know what you want from Lucas here. Having never seen my mother hanging from a torture rack, I have no idea what I would do, but when he told Padme what happened it seemed very real to me.
Yeah, Jango disappointed me all around.
"I would have liked something that didn't look like it came off the Hercules Blooper Reel."
Lol, yes, I agree, and nice analogy.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I'd like a bit more from Yoda. He is supposed to be this all powerful jedi and we've gotten a total of one fight scene, perhaps more, and a lot of philospy. And the character of Mace Windu seems some what forced. I don't think his character has been developed enough. And also the actor choice for Anakin, I think, was very poor. There are many other young male actors who could portray Anakin much better. And if you couldn't guess I'm now into the complaining mood and I plan to keep it up. Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Yeah. The kid can't act. A two by four with a frowny face on it has more emotion than that guy. And if you wave the two by four around a little bit and make angry noises, it's oscar gold compared to "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."
Ouch. How wince-inducing can you get?
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Yoda and Mace are secondary characters though.
Considering they aren't main characters I think they get substantial development. And Yoda is also 900 years old at this point, using the force directly is exhausting. I think we get a lot more from both of them in Episode III. But I think we get quite a good dose from them, enough to where we know who they are, and what they stand for.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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In my rewrite of the script, I have Anakin and Padme engage in a spirited argument about the merits of deserts as opposed to verdant greenspaces. Anakin defends deserts -- and sand -- to her. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Yoda isn't 900 years old until the original trilogy isn't he? At least, that is what I was always told. Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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hahahahahahahaha! heh heh i like that. Seriously, i don't think it really matters how old he is or the names of Chewies numerous relations or what kind of battery the lamp lights of the Falcon take, yah know? Now THAT level of Fandom...is kinda scary...
I'm suprised you know THAT much about Star Wars, and yet LIKE the movies. Seems like you should be crying its doom, Lyrhawn, more so than everyone else.
Edit: Oh hey, another added thought about the sand comment and Ani. Firstly, his "Are you an Angel?" bit wasn't that inspired either. Obviously, like his son, being stuck on such a god forsaken planet didn't give him much practice with wooing the female gender. Which makes me wonder....what DOES she see in him anyway O_o. I mean, one would think she's got plenty of other people to choose from... :: wonders ::
Anyway, one COULD pass it off as Ani doing his best to lead into a romantic...er, line based on something going...on..in....... nah i don't got it. Nevermind.
quote:In my rewrite of the script, I have Anakin and Padme engage in a spirited argument about the merits of deserts as opposed to verdant greenspaces. Anakin defends deserts -- and sand -- to her.
I like this. In my experience, growing up in a desert does not make you hate deserts. I'm rather quite fond of it.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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You know, recently re-watching the original Star Wars, I noticed something. No one is denying that Harrison Ford can act, right? And most of the other actos were no slouches, either. The writing wasn't even that bad. But the direction-- ayeeee. There were so many lines that, reading them, I would have heard differently. I think Lucas is a bad director. It makes me think that perhaps not all of the bad acting in these later movies is all the actors' faults. I think GL, while he can certainly concieve a movie, may not know how to pull it off in a way that jives with what the rest of the human race appreciates.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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There's what, 20 years between Episode II and Episode V? Sorry, Yoda 880 years old, my bad.
I thought the Yoda fight scene was awesome. It's the only time I have ever been in a theater where everyone was literally cheering out loud and pumping their fists into the air.
And yeah, I'm a freakishly fanatical fan who knows way too much about Star Wars. I'm the same way about Lord of the Rings, and to a lesser extent about Star Trek. If I were doing the prequels I would have done them differently, as I stated before I would have totally altered the timeline. And with further reflection, I would have preferred someone else write the script and direct the film (you have no idea how much it hurt to type that sentence, I think my fingers are numb).
But, that doesn't mean I'll tear down any of the Star Wars movies. I still love the original three as my favorite movies of all time (well, Monty Python and the Holy Grail probably gives them a run for their money, but, meh). And the prequels weren't that bad, they just got a bad rap, some bad press, and suffered from excessive hype before their release. I believe Episode III can redeem them, and hope that it will. But cry at the doom of Star Wars? Nay. Different movies for a different time.
And I have no idea what kind of lamp lights the Falcon used, but Chewie was married to Mallatobuck, his father was Attichitcuk, sister was Kallabow, son was Lumpawarump (later Lumpawaroo), and his nephew was Lowbacca. Which is to say nothing of his friends and extended family. And no, I don't spend all my time researching this, I've read all the EU books once, and have a sickeningly good trick memory for these things.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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It was so weird, I was at Wal-Mart the other day (which I normally wouldn't do but my husband likes the oil-change there) and I saw the cardboard cut out of Anakin, and I remembered the scene where he makes the emporer lick the big 9-volt under his throne room. And I thought "if they can capture the emotions that come to a head in that scene, they can save this story."
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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The strange retention of Star Wars facts and information completely irrelevant to real life. Yes, I'm a SW freak, though not the freakiest of the freakish.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Just to clarify, I'm not one of the die hards who dress up in costume and attend conventions. Not because I'm too lazy (which is true), but mainly because I think that is just way too far.
I'm strictly a book geek. If it's there to be read, you can guarantee I'll read it (except prequel stuff, I don't read that).
KQ - Have you read the EU books? Have any favorites?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Same here, although in 10th grade I did dress up as an X-wing pilot (scrupulously researched and meticulously constructed home-made costume, of course) for Halloween.
My favorite SW book is I, Jedi. I have a major crush on Corran Horn. I also really enjoy the X-Wing books, and I enjoy bits and pieces of many of the others. (I can recite "The Little Lost Bantha Cub", and have even made up more to complete it, to say it to my daughter, although I'm not, on the whole, a fan of K. J. Anderson's SW books.) I like Zahn's books a lot, although there are parts I'd rather ignore in many of them. I do not like the NJO books, and in fact have not finished that because it got so bad, although I still intend to some day. I kind of make up my own mind about what I will accept as "canon". GL keeps screwing it up, though. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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oh my god, you are my twin. I, Jedi is my absolute favorite Star Wars book, and Corran Horn is my hero! Mike Stackpole is one of my favorite authors, and the X-Wing series is my second favorite.
Zahn has to be my favorite, barely above Stackpole. He is fantastic at creating plot, and weaving multiple plot lines together. Also his characters are so real, and fit perfectly into the Star Wars universe. He is overall a fantastic, and engaging writer. He is writing more books coming later this year/early next year in the series. I believe it is about the Outbound Flight Project and Thrawn. Should be good!
I don't consider the NJO to be canon. Canon for me stops at the Hand of Thrawn duology.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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when you say x-wing series, do you mean the rogue squadron one? I LOVED that!
I really liked the Jedi Academy too, but only because i want to be a Jedi!
The new one witrh the kids is cute, and I think my son would like it. See, when one becomes a mother, books have multiple ways of being measure: I want to read this, I want to read this to my child, My child would love this (whether I'd want him/her to or not)
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yes I mean Rogue Squadron, and later Wraith Squadron under Aaron Allston.
The Jedi Academy Trilogy is iffy for a lot of people. Many feel KJA did a poor job with it. Personally it's not one of my favorites, and I've only read it once, with no intention of going back to it. But I did like the Young Jedi Knight series that he wrote with Rebecca Moesta.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I don't understand how it's possible to be a fan of the Zahn books -- which I am -- while still drooling over the recent movies, which basically raped them, skinned them alive, and left their steaming corpses to rot in the street. I'm not a stickler for canon, but I was rather surprised to see Lucas trample all over the most popular elements of the SWU.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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you know, Tom, I was thinking about the original SW timeline and it's relation to that of Zahn and prequels (one element in the desecration of Zahn) and realized something.
In the original SW story, the implied lifetime of the empire is about 30 years. I mean think about it. Just from the originals, we know a few things:
The Emperor was still consilidating his power in ANH. He had just disolved the Senate and finally used the military beaurocracy to take direct control of all systems.
Darth Vader had helped him hunt down and exterminate the Jedi, which allowed the emperor the freedom to grow in power, unchallenged in the force. This implies that DV was there with the emperor at the beginning of his take over.
Darth Vader's wife was pregnant and both Kenobi and the Emperor knew the child would be threat. It's hard to imagine the mechanical (pre-battle with Kenobi DV) as having a wife and procreating. Therefore, it must have been before that that DV's wife became pregnent.
Luke/Leia are in their early 20's at most.
Therefore, from the original trilogy, the timeline for the rise of Palpatine is 20-30 years. I personally think GL used Hitler's rise as his model (hence, the direct usage of Chancellor, though, of course, that is not the only indicator). How long did that take?
Or, if you want an empire, how about Augustus. For all his play acting at being "The Pricipate", the first of Rome, rather than king, he did, in fact, exercise kingly authority rather quickly, especially once he had defeated Lepidus, Pompey the younger, and Antonius. So what's that, 30 years?
So it's not wholly out of the realm of possibility.
Zahn did a great job in fleshing this out (and making it more believable) as he did with why the clones were so bad. In my opinion, it is this latter plot idea that is most missing from the prequels. The menace and fear that "mad clones" would generate would be a great deterrent and reason why no one (like the rebellion), after the emperor had risen enough, simply created a new clone army to challenge him.
Am I missing any other Zahn plot elements that GL pissed all over?
But having said that, I still enjoyed the prequels (II much more than I) and think that III will be great. Could have been better but were not the end of civilization.
quote:Canon for me stops at the Hand of Thrawn duology.
Gag. The Hand of Thrawn duology was surprisingly bad. I almost have a hard time believing that it was written by the same author as the Thrawn trilogy.
quote:The menace and fear that "mad clones" would generate would be a great deterrent and reason why no one (like the rebellion), after the emperor had risen enough, simply created a new clone army to challenge him.
It could also be an issue of time and money. If it takes ten years to grow a clone army, then you've got to wait a long time before you can challenge the existing regime. I imagine it also costs a considerable amount of money, which the Rebel Alliance might not have had.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Zahn did a great job in fleshing this out (and making it more believable) as he did with why the clones were so bad.
Zahn screws up the timeline of the clone wars very badly. First, he has Vader as part of the scene after the Noghri planet got dumped on, and then he tells us something like 50 years have passed since. This means Luke and Leia were conceived while he was Vader, and well after the Clone wars. This leaped out at me when I read the books the first time.
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Zahn was writing from what LucasFilm gave him, you know.
Which kind of pisses me off, when I think about it.
But I loved the Hand of Thrawn duology. (Canon doesn't stop there for me, though; have you read the new one that takes place before the NJO but after the Hand of Thrawn?)
I really think Zahn and Stackpole have consistently been the best at preserving the "real" SW spirit in the books (and comics, for that matter). While I enjoy some of Barbara Hambly's vampire and wizard books, I think her SW book stunk rotten and needs to be expunged from the universe. And it annoys me that the people writing the Solo kids didn't seem to have a good grasp of what was age-appropriate, even for very gifted kids, nor was their character consistant throughout the series. (Don't get me started on Mara Jade and what writers other than Zahn and Stackpole did to her, although the Corellian Trilogy wasn't bad.) And I hate the whole Black Fleet Crisis series; it didn't make sense to me even before the prequels, and now, well...
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I only read one of Barbara Hambly's (Planet of Twilight), and yes, it was appallingly bad. But Vonda McIntyre's Crystal Star was even worse, I'd say (if that's even possible).
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I can't imagine how hard it is to write in someone else's universe. I'd hate all the inconsistency, I'd hate creating a character only to watch someone (KJA) butcher them in later books...ugh.
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Several people did really well. But really, I don't think Lucasfilm did a very good job choosing people to write in the universe most of the time.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I confess that I have not read this entire thread, but my brother pointed out that teenage Anakin HAD to be whiny in order to father a son as whiny as Luke was in Episode IV.
You know, "But I wanted to go to Tashi Station to pick up some power convertors!"
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Has everyone seen the "Star Wars Gangsta Rap"? There's also a "Remix". I find it absolutely hilarious.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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That was my point. Zahn actually kind of screwed with the timeline (as much as I love what he did with the SW universe and think he is the current keeper of the SW spirit.) So criticizing GL for messing with Zahn's chronology is actually backwards. The OT's chronology is consistant with that in the prequels, not with that in Zahn's books.
But for some, the Zahn chronology is more realistic (despite my observations regarding Hitler and Augustus) and hence to them, GL is screwing with what worked.
Having said that, Zahn is the SW master. The Last Command was awesome, especially the confrontation at the end with C'Baoth. Truly SW material- similar enough to RoTJ but still unique and powerful.
It would have been nice for GL to throw him a bone and canonize the Thrawn cycle even a little bit, in recognition of what Zahn (in writing those) did for the SW franchise. In the early 90's there was NOTHING new about SW. Nothing at all. GL was working on Young Indiana Jones. That was it. Zahn breathed new life into the franchise and the success of his books led directly to the EU (with the KJA crap, too, it must not be forgotton) and, I think, the first Tie Fighter game. But it would be nice to see a small nod of appreciation in his direction, like maybe the Emperor chosing a child as his accolyte (to be an Emperor's Hand- doesn't have to be Mara), or Garm Bel Iblis as one of the Senators fighting Palpatine's rise to power- just a name drop even- or a reference to clone madness or Mount Tantiss or Thrawn or Noghri or something. Just a bone.
GL'd never be that humble, though. Too bad.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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X-Wing came first, and then TIE Fighter. X-Wing is what got me back into the Star Wars universe, which I had kind of forgotten about for a few years.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Hmm, the original Zahn books came out before X-wing, so I think for me, it was the other way around. Having read some great Star Wars fiction, the X-wing games caught my eye. They still rank as some of my favorite games. Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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One of my friends in college is named Charles Baca, but he goes by Chewie! He liked to hang out with a guy named Hans Solid (so-lee). In another class I knew a guy who brought his two homeschooled twins with him to class (they did their work, didn't bother anyone) His name is Luke, He said he was also a twin and his sister is Leah His daughter is Skye and son is Joaquine (Wha-keen).
This is totally irrelevant, but I thought it was amusing.
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Yeah - I never understood that. The Vader siring the children while Vader thing never worked for me.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Presumeably if the Rebel Alliance can muster a fleet the likes of which to give the Empire pause, I would imagine they could find the resources to develop their own clone army - if only because recruiting qualified personnel has to be difficult at the best of times, never mind trying this while "under the gun."
The timing has always been odd to me - if we accept that the Empire is only thirty years old or so, Vader and his cohorts must have been absurdly lucky to be able to purge every last living Jedi, right down to their very memory in the people of the galaxy.
However, I do wonder - if Vader was sent to "bring balance" to the Force and he did so by culling the existing ranks of Light-side Jedi, what happens when his son rebuilds the ranks?
Isn't this just begging for another Vader to manifest and thin the ranks of the Light-side Jedi again?
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I always thought the way he brought balance was through father Luke, and through Killing the Emporer. I am very possibly way off on that though.
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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That is why Zahn's reasoning for why cloning was abandoned is so tempting. They go mad because of the force resonance (though in Zahn's novels, a "stable" clone needed only about a year to grow, versus the 10 in the prequels). Would really go towards making that more believable. After all, you don't throw away a means to create an utterly subserviant and obediant army if there are no real inherent dangers in having them.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Presumeably if the Rebel Alliance can muster a fleet the likes of which to give the Empire pause, I would imagine they could find the resources to develop their own clone army - if only because recruiting qualified personnel has to be difficult at the best of times, never mind trying this while "under the gun."
Yeah, but would they have the money to scrounge together a fleet and create a large clone army? And would they have ten years to wait? Maybe they didn't even have access to Kamino after the Empire took over.
quote:The timing has always been odd to me - if we accept that the Empire is only thirty years old or so, Vader and his cohorts must have been absurdly lucky to be able to purge every last living Jedi, right down to their very memory in the people of the galaxy.
I don't know if he was really able to purge the memory of them from the people—I just don't see the evidence for that in the movies. But if you can paint the Jedi as the enemy, it wouldn't be too hard to wipe them out and make people thankful that they're gone.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: The Zahn/Thrawn/Outbound book is already out. "Survivor's Quest". Really good.
Unless you mean one that actually takes place during the Outbound mission.
I was referring to the one that actually takes place during the mission. I haven't read Survivor's Quest yet. Don't get around to pleasure reading as much as I'd like, have too many history texts to read for school.
And yeah, Planet of Twilight, Crystal Star, and Children of the Jedi were by far the worst, and biggest mistakes ever committed to paper with the name Star Wars attached to them. Horrible.
I like the HoT Duology. Some of it was a little out there, but I like how he brought the Jorj Cadas line back into play and explained that, and did a lot of nice backstory with Talon Karrde.
Also, as far as resources for the Rebels go. I highly doubt they would have the time or the money to create a serious clone army. The majority of their ships were either extremely old, or were modified Mon Cal starliners outfitted with turbolasers. They never had the money to build things from scratch, and sometimes didn't even have the credits to arm the troops they did have.
Yeah the timeline of the Empire always seemed a little screwy to me. I didn't really question it because it never really seemed like that big of a deal, but it would have been nice if more of that flowed better. And honestly I don't really pay a lot of attention to pre ANH EU. There's so much written in that period, and a lot of it doesn't match up. I don't even bother with it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Without researching more into the conflicting mythologies of Star Wars, it's harder to answer why the Alliance never explored clones - they might have always been strapped for credits, but the potential returns on a clone production investment is, to me, well worth the sacrifices made elsewhere.
If the technology was "lost" or somehow unavailable, however, that might be more plausible. Which if Palpatine proceeds to obliterate the planet in the middle of 3, I'll believe it.
Most of my comments about the purging of the Jedi comes from background material that may or may not be direct canon, so take them with a slice of lime.
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hahahahahahahaha! heh heh i like that. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Obviously, like his son, being stuck on such a god forsaken planet didn't give him much practice with wooing the female gender. Which makes me wonder....what DOES she see in him anyway O_o. I mean, one would think she's got plenty of other people to choose from... :: wonders :: ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
