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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Star Wars(Getting Worse?) (Page 5)

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Author Topic: Star Wars(Getting Worse?)
Dagonee
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Children of the Jedi had such promise to - a Jedi playing the role of Bruce Willis in Die Hard. [Smile]
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TMedina
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Ya know, I can't help but think Bruce Willis would have made a fun Jedi.

Michael Ironside, however, would have been a great Jedi.

-Trevor

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Dagonee
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The one who wants to eradicate evil and inadvertently turns to the dark side doing it. [Evil]
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TMedina
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See? See? The potential is there. [Big Grin]

-Trevor

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Dagonee
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Christopher Walken as the reformed Dark Jedi in the witness protection program.

"What'd you say? That's wrong. You're talking to me all wrong. Do it again, and I'll stab you in the face with a hydrospanner."

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Lyrhawn
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I can't see Christopher Walken as anything but that guy on SNL.

"I think, what the Force really needs...is more cowbell."

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IanO
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Just wanted to say "Star Wars- clone wars" is freaking awesome.

so cool.

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Lyrhawn
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you mean the video game?
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TheTick
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I think that's what those cartoon shorts were called on Cartoon Network, right?
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ketchupqueen
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I think part of the reasoning behind the RA not using clones is they believed in free will. Brainwashing clones to serve them is so... stormtrooper-ish. They took pride in individuality, even when it created occasional problems in chain of command and such.
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TMedina
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I don't think the clones were brainwashed per se - they were just grown with a vaguely sub-par intelligence or a distinct lack of free will.

You know, like Marines. [Big Grin]

For me, I suppose it boils down to idealism versus survival and not everyone would make the same choice.

-Trevor

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Lyrhawn
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I think it was a matter of money and equipment. Spaarti Cloning Cylinders were impossible to find after the Clone Wars ended. The only ones I've ever read about existing were the ones on Niruan and Mount Tantiss on Wayland.

To clone an army you need a huge facility, they just didn't exist after the Clone Wars. Also, they could never have afforded such an army, they didn't have the money.

Also, I saw the Clone Wars cartoons on Cartoon Network. They were awesome, and just came out on DVD last Tuesday, I want them.

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TMedina
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Clone armies yes.

Clone spec ops, much more affordable and a much better return on the investment since the RA couldn't afford to mass produce rank-and-file fodder.

-Trevor

Edit: Take my musings with a grain of salt. I'm a guy who killed a Star Destroyer with a Millenium Falcon-esque tramp freighter in the WEG rpg. [Big Grin]

[ April 04, 2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]

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Lyrhawn
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Well for the sake of following this through.

There still were no Spaarti Cloning Cylinders, but let's say they had some sort of series of biolabs set up, and some ethically corrupt Rebel scientists willing to go along with it.

Let's make it a given that they had the money to set all this up as well.

Clones still take a decade or more to mature to anything closely resembling fighting status. That's including flash imprinting and advanced aging. Otherwise clones go crazy when they are "born."

And the resistance that grew into the Rebellion didn't really become an organized group until six years or so before the battle of Yavin, it wouldn't have made a difference, not that they knew that.

But with a decent supply of already trained Rebels, I think they were more concerned with finding weapons for volunteers than with Clones.

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TMedina
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I take exception to the notion of ethically corrupt.

-Trevor

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Sarcasm
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Lyrhawn: Half of what you're referring to is Extended Universe stuff—not exactly canon, no matter what people think. Also, you're essentially just repeating what I've been saying. (This is Jon Boy.)

Furthermore, it could be that the Rebel Alliance was able to get enough recruits that they didn't need clones. I'd guess that real people make better soldiers than clones; we all know how well those Stormtroopers can aim.

[ April 04, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Sarcasm ]

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TMedina
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Heh.

-Trevor

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IanO
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yeah, the cartoon network stuff. especially Dooku and Palpatines use of Assaj Ventiss to force Anakin the tap into the dark side more. It was really really good. Plus the Jedi (especially Mace) were incredible.

And EU stuff (Zahn's) minimal developing time for clones is 1 year. GL shows 10 years. I suppose it could be argued that technology sped up the process.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
we all know how well those Stormtroopers can aim.
Stormtroopers aren't clones. Just brainwashed and de-personalized.
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TMedina
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Which begs the question - at what point in the timeline do the Clone Troopers get phased out and the Stormtroopers get recruited, trained and deployed?

-Trevor

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Lyrhawn
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I consider some of the EU to be canon, but really that's a personal decision. George Lucas and Lucasbooks approved everything written in the offical EU, so the argument could be made that it is all canon, though I don't go that far.

What do you take issue with as for ethics and corruption? You see no issue with cloning someone made for the expressed purpose of dying so you don't have to? They could have just as easily created war droids. Besides, if they acted like the Empire, they would have feared becoming the Empire. Kinda hard to put that on a recruitment poster.

Edit to add: Zahn's lessened incubation time comes from using Ysalimiri around the cloning tanks.

[ April 04, 2005, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

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IanO
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Thrawn lessened what Kardde called "one year minimum per clone" to about 3 weeks using, as you said, Ysalimiri. I was saying, though, that it can be argued that what took place in AoTC as 10 years may have later been sped up to that 1 year.

Of course, GL probably hasn't considered at all trying to unify his world with Zahn- with the exception of naming the Republic capitol Coruscant.

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TMedina
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Not really Lyr, no - you're talking about living weapons bred and engineered for the express purpose of fighting, killing and dying.

I would object to kidnapping someone, brainwashing them and dropping them into a uniform, but I don't think the two examples are comparable.

The critical difference, for me, involves the prior existence of free will.

In case A, the clone was never an independent, sentient being. He (it) was engineered from the beginning to fulfill a specific role - programmed, trained and honed for one job.

In case B, the creature was not created for the express purpose of fulfilling an explicit duty. The creature developed normally and was free to develop independent through processes, a descision making system and relative autonomy in thought and deed.

-Trevor

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Lyrhawn
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I'm not so sure.

What's the real difference between someone who has never had free will and someone who loses it?

Neither of them knows what it is, or knows what they are missing.

I think the connection is that both are able to have free will, and to deny a person who is capable of having it is the same thing as taking it away from someone who does have it.

(How did we spiral away from Star Wars into an ethics debate about cloning? Was that my fault?)

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TMedina
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To move back to Star Wars, when did the Empire move from Cloned soldiers to recruited Storm Troopers?

It seems like there's a bit of a crunch in canon time lines, unless the Empire began recruiting drives to replace gaps in the ranks of the clones with recruited and trained troops.

-Trevor

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Lyrhawn
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Maybe that's something we will see answered in RotS, but I've never heard about the transition, even in EU, anywhere in the EU.
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TomDavidson
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"It seems like there's a bit of a crunch in canon time lines...."

Yes. Lucas screwed the pooch with the timeline for the prequels.

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Tater
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May 19th. *twitches with excitement*
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Jonathan K.
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is there a better expression then screwed the pooch? I doubt it.
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Lyrhawn
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44 Days 01 Hours 22 Minutes 30 Seconds
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Ginol_Enam
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This post has a few RotS spoilers relevant to why the Rebel Alliance may not have chosen to use clones...

So... Decide if you care enough to spoiled or whatever......

In RotS when Palpatine makes his big move he intiates some sort of biological program within the clones that makes them turn against the Jedi. One minute the clones and Jedi will be fighting against the Separatists droid army, the next minute will have the Jedi defending themselves against both...

The Rebellion might have decided that spending all that money and time creating a clone army or whatever was not worth risking having someone reprogram the clones against them again...

So...

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TMedina
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Pfft. No plotholes in that idea.

-Trevor

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
unless the Empire began recruiting drives to replace gaps in the ranks of the clones with recruited and trained troops.
I believe that while officers were recruited, and some stormtroopers were, many stormtroopers were conscripted. Hence the necessity of brainwashing to ensure loyal troops.
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TMedina
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That's possible - but I enjoyed a Dark Horse comic that followed the career of a Storm Trooper from recruit to boot camp to his untimely demise at the hands of Princess Leia on a Rebel Blockade Runner. [Big Grin]

-Trevor

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SteveRogers
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From what I've heard, from critics, reviews, and people who have seen the movie, Star Wars III is awesome. So what if I was wrong?
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Rakeesh
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It's been a long thread, but I have to say I'm in the Armchair Director's camp on this one.

Personally I think the midicholorians were the most ridiculous, stupid, and counter-thematic device that could've been used. The Jedi went from studious monks who tapped into the Force that 'surrounds us, penetrates us, etc.' by their long study and contemplation to...mutants.

Suddenly, they're bloody X-Men. You, too, could be a Sith or a Jedi, if only your MC count is high enough!

And Anakin's mother still being in slavery. Wtf? First off, it's completely implausible taken on its own. They're Jedi, defenders of peace, justice, and decency, etc., throughout the galaxy. Even though they cannot help all of the slaves, they can at least help the mother of one of the kids who helped save a freaking planet.

Second, having a mother toiling in slavery maybe, just maybe, might be viewed as a detriment to Jedi training. The Council was able to sense his fear and anxiety the first time they ever laid eyes on him, it's pretty damn unlikely they wouldn'tve sensed his constant anxiety and suffering thinking of his mother over the decades.

-------

quote:
It would require immense training for Anakin to be able tp physically move things with the Force. Remember how hard Luke had to concentrate to grab his lightsaber in the Wampa cave in ESB?
Luke also waited until he was much, much older before he attempted any telekinesis than Anakin did. It is also established frequently that Anakin Skywalker is more powerful than Luke-DV never lost to Luke Skywalker, remember.

And even in the world of MC, Anakin had a higher count than Yoda *gasp*!

quote:
YOue ever wonder why Obi-Wan was only becoming a Jedi Knight after twenty years of being a Padawan? Its not supposed to be easy.
You ever notice the kids in the Temple performing feats of TK while they were still children?

quote:
Darth Maul does not have fun, he gets the job done.
This apprentice of the Sith never even killed anyone who got in his way. He wasn't ruthless, just...dogged in his pursuit.

quote:
Darth Maul wouldn't have killed someone indiscriminately.
Well, not 'indiscriminately'. Perhaps he interrogates someone about the boy who just won the Podrace, who happens to be a friend of Anakin's who knows things about strange offworlders who've been hanging around for about as long as he's been missing them. So Maul rips it from his mind (because the guy doesn't want to rat out 'Annie'), and then kills him. We could've ditched the MC or Jar-Jar entirely and gotten that in nicely.

Darth Maul is cool as in eye-candy, cool as in FX. He is a non-entity outside of that.

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Rakeesh
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First off, in the EU stuff, the Noghri did not say to my knowledge that it was a massive battle between capital ships, like WWII Pacific in space. They mentioned only two capital ships they saw, one of which (the Rebellion's, presumably) was destroyed and thus wrecked Honoghr (sp?) planetary ecology indefinitely.

The Imperial ship could have been tracking the rebel ship, and found and disabled its hyperdrive over the planet, where it would then be easy pickings. It could have been an Interdictor, and the ship's hyperdrive was fine, but it couldn't escape. The Rebel ship was so old, its HD may simply have failed.

Second, there are several reasons the Rebels would not have invested in clone technology. First of all, they're a band of idealists, led by Mon Mothma and Bail Organa and the like. Those are the people who watched their beloved-but-troubled Republic get trashed and turned into the Empire by the Emperor, DV, and a whole lotta clones.

Second, from the EU it does not appear that clones are like nukes-relatively easy to produce once you've got the main ingredient. They're more like Greek Fire-a devastating weapon that people no longer know how to make. Remember how pleased Grand Admiral Thrawn was when he discovered the Spaarti Cylinders? How that-coupled with ysalamiri-was in fact his best discovery in Mt. Tantiss? The Empire's resources at that time weren't as vast as they used to be, but presumably if it was simply a question of money, the Empire would've had them.

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bCurt
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Kinda fun reading this in light of Star Wars VII having now come out with more on the way.
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