posted
No children home during the day is quite different. As has already been mentioned, there is still great advantage to simply being available if your children or even your husband needs you.
I do often rest in the middle of the day because my evenings are very full and I don't rest then. I don't get much rest on weekends, either. But those are resting periods for both my husband and children. If I'm wired and stressed because I just got home from a bad day at work and food needs to be cooked, and homework needs to be helped, etc., I'm not going to be able to give as much to my family than if I were well rested when the troops came in.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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I'd even extend it to the "no children at home during the day." Of course, this may vary. You may find that your children add so much to your normal household chores that you cannot get those chores done in the evenings and weekends. You may also find that they're demanding of your time in the evenings, particularly when they're of a certain age, and thus wish you had more time during the day to get traditional evening chores -- like meal preparation -- done earlier.
This is a perfectly valid choice. But it does not represent a particularly hard life. At worst, you are working around one-fifth as hard as the average maid.
It's not a choice that deserves criticism unless you assume that all non-optimal lifestyles -- meaning any lifestyle that contains any bit of leisure in it -- are deserving of criticism. But neither is it a "noble" endeavor. It's not even difficult work.
Edit: Note that I consider childcare very difficult work. If you do the lion's share of the childcare in the evenings, and consequently have no downtime to yourself, you can make the legitimate case that these evenings constitute your real burden. No problem. But I think fewer and fewer households are structured so that the housewife is still the exclusive provider of meals, childcare, and cleaning duties in the evenings.
posted
Just thought of something. Could some of the "get a job" be some sort of subconcious reverse envy? I mean everyone would like to be in a financial position where they could stay home more. I also know in some social circles, the condescension goes both ways. The women who do stay home (and send their kids to school) look down on the ones that work as much as the other way around.
posted
You know, I hold that about 50% of the "work" in work is the mental part. Doing chores when you have children, even if you can't see them and they are busy, is harder than doing the same chores without them. Things always look easier when you don't have the mental stress to go with it.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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dpr, I don't know why she homeschools. She does seem to enjoy it at times, but at other times trying to homeschool 3 small children seems to be incredibly stressful for her. I guess it's like a lot of things - sometimes you like it and sometimes you hate it.
PSI, it's funny you said that about comparisons. That used to get under my skin as well, but now what gets under my skin are comments like, "Oh, I have 2 toddlers at home with me all day...must be nice to have it easy like you." I usually want to reply, "I already did that, what you're going through doesn't impress me, and I deserve what little break I get now."
I like what CT said about priorities in a family and getting the inside picture (to paraphrase). Up until a little over a year ago I went to school full-time and worked part-time. I can't describe how nice it's been to not fight over housework, not worry about who picks up the kids if they get sick, etc. The kids hated every after-school program they were in. But this works for us now, and we're all happy with it. I'm keeping busy, believe me. As Tom said, housework (but I don't think he's ever cleaned or done laundry for 4 people) might not take all day, but volunteering, helping with homework, running errands, etc. combined with that sure does.
posted
Not having enough time to read is not always a matter of being too busy.
Some people don't actually like to read very much. Reading is a chore to them, and "reading for fun" only means the reading is fiction. Why put so much effort into having fun? There are easier ways to do it.
But because such attitudes are intellectually not PC, they simply have too much else to do than read.
We really shouldn't disdain people like that (we shouldn't disdain anyone, really, though unfortunately we all find some reason to). If they are happy the way they are, if their actions or lack thereof does no harm to society, who are we to criticize? I think that is very much like critisizing the housewife.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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The disdain wasn't for the non-reading - the disdain was for talking about what a great reader she'd be if only the shopping didn't get in the way.
It's like Lady Catherine: "My daughter would be an excellent pianist if she ever chose to play."
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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romany: we buy our beef as a cow and have it slaughtered, so we know what's in it. We can't possibly eat an entire cow, though, so we usually split it with several other families. The cow always comes from someone we know -- it's usually free range and grain fed the last few weeks of its life. If you want (you're close enough geographically), I'll let you know when we're about to restock the freezer and give you the opportunity to buy a quarter of it. Or an eighth. We're probably 4 or 5 months from it, though. It's easily the cheapest way to buy beef, and we know it has no hormones or whatever in it.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Since a good third of this thread is devoted to pot roast recipes, I'll toss mine in:
I cook mine all day (appr. 8 hours) in two cans of beef broth, with Worcestershire sauce added, along with onions and potatoes (and whatever other veggies you like, e.g., carrots--neither I nor my hubby care for cooked carrots, so we skip em). It's sooooo tender by the time you take it out (assuming you've gotten a decent roast).
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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My mom was/is a "housewife." It was nice when we were little, in case either my sister or I got sick, but that was extraordinarily rare. As we got older and branching out in our lives, Mom did the same and got more involved, since we (most likely) weren't going to require as much during-the-day assistance - but she was/es always home around the time school let out in case we need/ed a ride. Although, for all I know, she was gone while we were younger and I just have no idea. Hmm.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Excellent! I'll write it on my calendar for May, as I think we'll be ready about then. We'll probably include my brother and his wife on the buy too...they live in West Seattle, so it won't be any big deal to bring your share down to you.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Personally, I believe a "normal" (middle-class, non-lottery winner, etc.) housewife (or househusband) with children outside the home should have a part-time job, or some means of economic self-support. Unless your prenuptial agreement and/or life insurance are airtight, what happens when your spouse leaves you, abuses you, or gets struck by lightning? It is no longer a reasonable expectation to have one partner be the sole economic provider.
This is not an excuse to put in a second shift, or let your spouse do it. Make your kids do whatever they are competent to, and be equitable in dividing the rest. And do not sweat the little things - there is no point in making a bed that will have the sheets mussed in less than twelve hours.
Your children do not (or should not) define your entire life away from your spouse. If my wife spends her entire time taking care of my children, what on earth did she do before we had them? Start a home business; put in office hours in mine; paint, sing, write; do strange new drugs and write trip reports on them; do something that defines you. There is more to life than perpetuating the cycle.
Hell, homeschool if you are competent. If it is so important to guide your children (and it ought to be) that you are willing to sacrifice a second income, why not go all the way? Public schools are not that great. Helping your children develop their potential is worth it, but keeping the carpet a shade whiter is not. I never asked for dinner to be waiting every day; I can cook and so can any child of eight or nine.
Of course, I want to marry a woman who is committed to remaining childfree, and am firmly convinced I would not make a good father, so my opinion is probably worth its weight in gold.
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As a kid, I always really liked finding someone at home making dinner when I got back from school. For a while it was my mum, and then for a while it was my dad. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Oh, I liked it as well, but it could have been me that prepared them. Would have been one less thing I need to learn now. Posts: 281 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Heh heh. Well, it wasn't so much the making dinner part for me as it was the finding someone at home already. For the brief period of time when both my parents worked full-time, I had to go to dad's office every day after school and then we would go home when he was ready.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Danzig, while I appreciate your opinion, I firmly believe that you're making assumptions which aren't true.
Just because a woman is a housewife does *not* mean that she defines her entire life by her children. Yes, I'm very involved in my children's lives. But, I also volunteer, do various crafts, take internet college courses, and write - just to name a few of my hobbies and activities.
Also, just because a woman is a housewife is no reason to believe that she cares more about keeping her carpet a "shade whiter" than about anything else. I don't stay home 'cause I love to clean, silly. I stay home because it makes our family life run more smoothly. It's a decision my husband and I made together. I'm not obsessed with cleanser, I swear.
To be honest, I don't worry too much about economic self-support. I was a SAHM for part of my first marriage, and I walked out on him with less education than I do now. I was able to get a job and support 2 young children on my own - being a housewife did not stop me from this. It's wrong to assume that housewives don't have marketable skills and won't be able to find work if they need to. It will be more difficult if they've been out of the job market for years, but it can be done.
I'm interested though - why do you have these assumptions? The one that bothered me the most was you telling housewives (me?) that they need to do something that defines them. Why do you assume that housewife = no life?
posted
If you do something that defines you, great. Most or all of the housewives on Hatrack seem to have something or several somethings. In real life, most notably the church I attended in high school, I can think of several cases where this is not so, and it does not seem healthy. There is nothing inherent in the job description of housewife (or househusband) that I feel defines anyone, except as someone who manages to fulfill basic parental obligations. Congratulations, but what happens when the last one moves out?
I suppose part of this is because I do not intend to have children, but plan to do my best if it happens anyway. I have no problem with supporting a woman who did something at home, but it has to be something of value to her and myself. I realize that many (most?) couples want children... but I view raising children as an additional obligation to both parties, and not part of housework. <edit> It seems others view childrearing as part of housework, a notion I reject. </edit> If you do want kids, what does stay-at-home spouse do before they are born?
I guess in order to answer your question I would need to know more of what you consider to be "housework". Sure, the bill-paying and some chores need to be done, but the essential ones were (presumably) done by both parties before they were married. Cleaning dishes is essential, but making the bed is not. Do you really do all the outside, non-childrearing tasks in your household?
quote:I was a SAHM for part of my first marriage, and I walked out on him with less education than I do now.
You have my respect for that. If you are have a reasonable expectation of your ability to provide for yourself and any dependents, that is fine. If you do not, that is a problem. I suppose if you are childfree/childless you can make your own bed, but if you do have dependents you have a responsibility to be able to support them without aid. If you are independently wealthy and will remain so, that is great, but most people are not.
Outside interests are wonderful. Personally, I would love to be free to spend all day in a library. I would love to make enough in a nine to five to support my wife in doing the same. But it is the spending the day in the library that is worthwhile, not spending it at home doing nothing <edit the second> besides her share of the housework, which I ought to be sharing equally </edit>.
posted
I haven't read the whole thread yet, and already, I'm going to pipe in with comments. If I'm repeating someone else, um, sorry. But not sorry enough to not do it anyway.
First, I hate that term housewife. You're not married to the house. Why not use "homemaker" instead?
Second, why is it any of their business? It's between you and your husband. And your children. It doesn't involve anyone else.
Third. Um, I'll think of a third sometime, I promise.
I'm a stay-at-home person, but we don't have kidlets, so it's not that. I just don't want to work, and hubby doesn't want me to, either. I've spent too many years stressed over supporting myself, and I don't feel like doing that anymore. Plus I want to pursue my writing. Since hubby makes enough, it isn't necessary for me to work, and he's totally supportive of me writing.
And I get the looks, too. I also get the comments. The judgements. But whatever. It's their problem. This is what's best for me and hubby, and that's all that matters.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Danzig, the way things are set up now I pretty much do all the cleaning and laundry, as well as run the errands and grocery shopping, making any appropriate appts. for the children and taking them, co-ordinating everyone's schedules, cooking, helping kids w/ homework, taking care of our animals and getting them to the vet, working with the kids on special activities (like 4-H), etc.
Now, Mr. Opera does his fair share. He will happily cook dinner if I don't feel like it and is quick to help out in the evenings if I happen to be folding laundry or something like that - but I usually don't do that stuff at night because we're busy with dinner, dessert, baths for kids, stories, etc. He's definately an involved parent as well. Don't get me wrong - he loves me being at home but has always made it clear that since we don't have to have a second income whatever I do is my choice and supported by him.
Quid, I do like your attitude about this - and I didn't know you stayed at home. I agree that it's people's problem if they take issue with it, but I have to wonder why this can be a hot issue. Tom noted earlier that it isn't hard work, but why does that matter? I've done data entry before, and that's not hard, but people don't take issue with that job. It just seems to strike a chord with a lot of people.
space opera
edit: Danzig, I forgot to add that I totally agree with housewives needing a life outside of their children - everybody does.
[ January 20, 2005, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
Posts: 2578 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Kayla, it's none of my business, but your comments struck me as rather harsh.
I'll butt the hell out, now.
-o-
There are a number of Hatrackers who have been quite vocal in their opposition to the concept of someone whose sole "job" is as a homemaker. I'll let them speak for themselves if they choose to enter this thread, but I wanted to point out that they do exist.
-o-
Having one of us (me, probably) be a homemaker (permanently--I did SAHD thing for a few months when we got the girls) is a luxury we did not choose to be able to afford. I wouldn't change any of the choices we have made, because they were the right ones for us, I think. But I wish our finances had been such that we could have afforded it without having to give up any of the other things we feel are important.
-o-
I know there are exceptions, including notable ones here at Hatrack, but most homeschooling parents are not equipped to do a good job of it, in my observation. I understand having objections to the public school system, and I understand believing that a quality, well-rounded education is not your highest priority for a child. But the line that people should homeschool because our schools don't do a good job is, in large part, a myth, because most people do a worse job, not a better one. Unfortunately, most people are both underqualified and oversubjective to adequately evaluate the quality of an instructional job that they do.
I sure know that Cor has had to teach a slew of kids who enter the system having never written anything longer than a sentence or two in their lives. And I've had to teach a lot of kids who swear to me that they learned calculus at home, and they sort of did, except that they can't solve a linear equation to save their lives.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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This may not be true for all housewives, but what really gets to me is the lack of structure. At most jobs I have had, there is a certain level of courtesy and respect coming from boss, coworkers or customers. Sure it's not always great, but there is a system in place.
I guess if I wanted it to be that way at home I would just have to create it. But no one wants to view their spouse and kids as customers. At least I don't.
Actually I run a sort of business here. I do all the office stuff for my husband's business.
I think its easier knowing you are getting paid for what you do. I shouldn't be more willing to do something in that respect, but the fact is I am. So I guess I'm not a really good person to judge by. I don't feel like the work I do actually makes me any money, it just enables my husband to make money.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Before I married Fahim and still lived in Canada, I worked as a self-employed accountant. I was good at it, and it paid the bills, but I was so burnt out. I hated doing it. Hated hated hated hated. If I absolutely had to have an income, I could do it again, but I'd rather poke a mechanical pencil in my eye.
I'd wanted to become a writer for a few years before we got married, but what with supporting myself, it didn't happen.
But when Fahim and I started discussing marriage, I told him how much I didnt' want to work anymore, and he told me how much he'd rather marry someone who didn't want to work outside the home, so it was all good. He's also a writer - has hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles published, plus he also writes science fiction - so he completely understood. But then, that was a major part of the attraction, that we understood each other so well.
So, yes, I am not employed. But I do now write for two magazines and am working on novels. But I also admit that we spend a fair bit of time playing. We love watching movies, and with DVDs being so cheap here, we tend to go through a lot. I think we have over 500 in our collection now - Fahim's working on updating the database. I don't have a hard life by any stretch. Now. I used to have a very hard life. I like the way things are now, very much. It all evens out.
I could even point out further just how good of a life I have now. We have someone come in every other week or so to clean. Because we can afford to, it helps the local economy, this woman is otherwise unemployed, and I have a bad back and can't do a lot of things. Plus we both hate cleaning. So why not?
But if people take issue with this, it's their issue, not mine, and not Fahim's. Fahim is happy with the way our household is set up, and so am I. We can afford to do things this way. And if something happened to him, I could support myself if I had to. What else matters?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sounds cool to me. How did you become a writer? I want to be a writer so badly I'd sell an eye. I totally would too. Heck, I'd even hang off a tree for 9 days and nights like Odin...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Syn, do you mean how do you become published? Because to become a writer, you just write. All the time. Although, by that definition, I'm not a writer either cuz I don't write all the time. But anyway . . .
Should we start a new thread or further derail this one? Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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SO, responding to your original post, it seemed to me that that woman was more resentful of non-homeschoolers than housewives.
This thread strikes a cord for me. I am now a housewife and I have gotten so much criticism and animosity for it. My own mother told me that I was wasting my education. I started working when I was 8 (no, not a lemonade stand or selling candy - physically demanding farm chores for our neighbors) and worked until about 2.5 years ago. I was working 16-hour-days 6 days a week and 10 hours on Sundays. I barely saw my husband and, even though I liked my job, I was miserable. I had to take a family leave when my mother got sick and when I got back, I decided not to go back to work.
Does this mean that I spend my time on the sofa eating bon bons all day? No, but it's no one's business if I did.
First of all, certain types of households do require a lot of cleaning. I typically spend about 4 hours per day cleaning, not counting cleaning up dishes after supper, etc. I have a lot of silver that has to be polished once a week, which is very time-consuming when done properly. We're all allergic to dust, so I dust and vacuum every day. I polish once a week, which takes forever (we have a piano and tons of tables). I clean and disinfect the bathroom every day. I have linens that need to be hand-washed. I make sure that Andrew has clean, ironed clothing for work. Then there are the things like having the car washed, rotating the closets seasonally, and scrubbing out the fridge.
For me, taking care of my husband is time consuming. I fix all of his meals from scratch every day. I tend to his clothes. I run all of his errands (he's never been to our bank or post office) and organize his schedule. I pack his suitcase when he goes out of town. I send cards and gifts to his co-workers and bosses when appropriate and I throw and attend holiday parties. I have frequent supper parties, which take a lot of planning when you do everything yourself (which I do). My job is to be an asset to Andrew and help his career.
I take care of our dogs, which is a big job when one of them has health problems. I take classes here at the college and teach Hebrew school at my synagogue. I go the the range several times a week.
Do I get my nails done every week? Yep. And my hair done every 3 weeks? Sure do. Shopping? All the time. There's nothing wrong with that.
I am the CEO of my family and it's much better for it. I've never been happier and the only thing that's missing is children (which will hopefully no longer be the case very soon).
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Let's start a new topic... I write... in my head pretty much all the time and in blogs several times a day.
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All that being said, I am planning on pursuing a graduate degree when all of my future children are in school all day. Very slowly, because I want to be very involved in their school, activities, etc.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Okay, I confess I didn't read through every single post in this thread. I skimmed most of the ones I didn't read, though I didn't stick around long for pot roast. But I'm surprised that--as far as I saw, anyway--no one has yet mentioned the "F" word.
"Feminism". I think that's the real villain in this little drama.
Now, before everyone jumps on me and crucifies me for being a horrible sexist pig, let me just say first of all that I myself am a feminist. That is, if we define feminism as the belief that women are equal to men and should have the same rights and privileges that men have, then I am a feminist.
But we must admit that the feminist movement takes things too far. I am glad to live in a society where women are allowed to go to work if they want to, and where they can make money equal to their male counterparts, and attain high positions above men if they are qualified. Unfortunately, the feminist dogma has taken the idea so far that now, any woman who stays home because she wants to, and is happy to let her husband be the breadwinner, is reviled and disdained.
I think women should be allowed to do any job men do. I do not think they should feel obligated to in situations in which alternatives exist. If the husband makes enough money to support the family, why should the wife feel obligated to work? I think the feministas have missed the point of their own agenda. The purpose of the feminist movement was not to force women into all the miserable little niches men occupied just so we'd all be the same. The purpose was to let women have the choice to do what they wanted with their lives instead of having some man tell them what to do.
If the woman wants to stay at home, and nobody is hurt by the lack of a second income, then isn't it a triumph for feminism when she gets to stay home instead of being forced by society to go work?
It goes the other way, too, of course. Equal means equal. If the woman enjoys working, and makes enough to support the family, and the man would rather stay home . . . well, society has, if anything, an even harder time with that, but what business is it of theirs? It's his choice.
quote:First, I hate that term housewife. You're not married to the house. Why not use "homemaker" instead?
A fishwife isn't married to a fish, either. What's your point? A housewife is a married woman (in modern English, a "wife", though a thousand years ago or so the word simply meant "woman") who spends most of her time at the house. It's a perfectly descriptive term.
Besides, no one who uses the coarse, childish term "hubby" is allowed to say what words are good and what words are bad. I have decreed it. Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Whatever. In response to your housewife comment. I also hate the term fishwife. What the heck is it supposed to mean? Married to the fish? Why not just say fishmonger? It makes more sense.
The rest of what you said I happen to agree with. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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D'oh! A fishwife is a lady fishmonger. It was the only example I could think of on such short notice. There aren't many words formed on that model. The only other one I could think of was "midwife", which just means "with the wife" and doesn't necessarily refer to a woman at all.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nice. I'd applaud that as clever, but anyone sappy enough to say "hubby" would probably just answer that the term is descriptive because she is married to someone good. At which I would just roll my eyes and move on.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I have three kids in school and I have plenty to do each day. But each day is different so if someone asks, "So what do you do all day?" (I usually draw a blank, but) the best answer is, "Whatever needs to get done."
Just tonight some one asked if I was in school or employed somewhere. The short answer was I just started taking a watercolor class. The long answer (that I didn't share) is my family needs me free to take care of "whatever." I also need time for me (reading, exercising, visiting Hatrack.)
I had planned to start working on going back to school when my youngest started school but then the unexpected happened. I was summoned to 4 months of Grand Jury duty, 2 days a week. I was being a productive citizen, I had no homework, and it was usually pretty interesting but it was a real sacrifice for my family.
I can go to school later. I can be come a contributing science professional later. Kids grow up and I don't want to miss being a part of the process everyday.
What I do with my day may not be important or impressive to people outside my family but it's important to my sweetheart and kids.
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quote: I can cook and so can any child of eight or nine.
When you say cook, do you mean make a sandwich, or actually cook - deal with hot pans, boiling water etc?
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I don't care for the phrase housewife myself, by the way, because it assumes a particular gender, which I think subtly assigns a value to it. As a man who has played that role, at least for a time, I rememer people's surprised and not-always-positive comments when they found out I was staying home. (I'm making somebody a great wife, and that sort of thing. )
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Icky, really? Even as I read it now, it doesn't seem that way to me. Probably PMS, or something.
As a stay-at-home-mom with a 14-year old in school all day, I'm very busy all the time. Of course, being crazy takes up most of the time, but then there's Hatrack and it's various off-shoots, computer games, boring things like laundry, grocery shopping, bill paying, cooking, cleaning, making lunches and breakfasts, taking care of the dog all day, vacuuming, dusting, doctor appointments, vet appointments, remodeling nightmares, reading, you know, general stuff.
But like I said, being crazy takes up way more time than most people think.
And I do try to avoid threads where Kat is active, I don't know why I responded here.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Icky - it is awfully young. I would never wish that on any child, and at the time, I knew it should never have worked out that way, but I had no choice. My mother was sick, and I was in kindergarten in the mornings, so I was the only one home to do any cooking, and my father, being the jerk that he was, couldn't be bothered to actually do anything to help anyone but himself. Ah, well, it's actually more complicated than that, but . . .
Edit to add: I was actually cooking, on the stove, full meals by myself and unsupervised at five. Granted, a chair was a necessary cooking tool, but still.
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Whatever. In response to your housewife comment. I also hate the term fishwife. What the heck is it supposed to mean? Married to the fish? Why not just say fishmonger? It makes more sense.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
