posted
I looked through their website...It wasn't very specific. Mostly, they state that humans are spiritual beings. That's the completely watered down version of it. Their core beliefs probably aren't as crack-pot as most bet-induced religions, but their practices are about as off the wall wierd as they come.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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wow. Thanks for the link. It's still all so vague. It seems to be a very introspective religion. ('introspective' instead of 'self-centered' because the latter sounds inflammatory and I don't mean it that way at all.)
I'm still trying to wrap my head around what exactly they do besides talk out their problems and sins with an 'auditor.' Are there rituals? Gatherings? What other action is taken by someone who 'practices' scientology?
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As far as I know, buying stuff that was written by L. Ron Hubbard seems to be important to Scientologists (No idea why, though )
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Although the whole book is fascinating reading. It took me a week or two, a few pages at a time. But it was absolutely riveting.
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I'm just going to take a guess that none of the people who become Scientologists have read much Science Fiction before becoming such, cause what that summation says about the Thetans and, whatever, is almost sci-fi cliche (the etherial beings idea). I'm no fan of Battlefield Earth (The movie at least. Granted, who is?), but L. Ron Hubbard is wierd (Two completely unrelated statements...But they make sense ).
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:For you LDS folks, why can't a person visit inside the temple in Salt Lake? I visited there once and got to see most of Mormon Square (I think that's what its called), but there were places only Mormons could go, or so I was told. The big statue of Christ was really something.
It's Temple Square, but I like "Mormon Square" a lot. Reminds me of when Larry King spoke locally and proposed that we dub our leader 'King of the Mormons.'
Anyway, sacred covenants are made in the temple; it's considered the closest we can get to God's presence on earth. It's holy ground, kind of like when Moses was commanded to remove his sandals before the burning bush. Thus, temples are supposed to be entered with reverence and willingness to participate in the ordinances that are the reason for their construction. This is gauged by means of a interview with Mormons who want to attend the temple. They're asked first about the status of their faith and secondly if they have committed any sins that should be resolved before they enter the house of God. Answers are entirely up to the interviewee; thus, it's possible to lie, but one would hope that awareness of the solemnity of what's at stake would deter that.
This causes problems sometimes, particularly when weddings (among those ordinances) are held in temples, and some family members cannot enter. I was among that group last summer when my sister was married; I couldn't honestly bear testimony of the leadership of the church, and didn't even bother trying to gain access. A few weeks ago my parents asked me if I resented it, and I don't, really; I don't think the rules should be changed as long as the temple is professed to be what it is.
Thanks, Matt. That makes sense to me. I can understand the desire to keep the Temple sacred. I get frutrated when I visit a particular mission, church, or basilica and there are folks taking souvenir photos inside. I like to light a candle for my Grandmother and say a silent prayer, and tourists can be very distracting.
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When I went to St. Peters (I belive that's the one) in New York, we entered a roped off area in the back where we could look at the church and take pictures. The thing was though, MASS WAS IN SESSION! Here all we toursits were, snapping pictures and pointing things out, and people were engaged in worship. I told my wife, "This is disrespectful, we don't belong in here when mass is in session." She agreed and we walked out.
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It's the church's fault for making the place so pretty that tourists want to drop by, really. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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The same thing happened (Tourists barging in and snapping photographs during mass) when I went to the Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City. I was super-uncomfortable, but I was also a Jr. High student and didn't really know what to do about it.
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I never noticed any tourists inside the various duomos I visited in Milan. . . Now, OUTSIDE was a different story, especially on the roof.
If you ever visit Milan, take the stairs to the roof-- it's got some fabulous art-chitecture up there.
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I am uncomfortable reading and hearing such derogitory remarks about Scientology masked as "explanations" of the faith. As unbiased as possible, and I know there are people here who can be close to that, where can I get information about the religion from those who are believers? What are the "sacred books" and "sources of doctrines" that they use? If no one can be objective about that, then at least tell me where I can make up my own mind.
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Please don't. There is no need whatsoever for you to waste even a moment of your time "researching" the "truth" -- if any -- in Scientology. Trust me.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Heh, in a situation similar to though more extreme than your own, Occasional, all but the most basic teachings of Scientology (which are just some modest slightly offbeat psychology, really) are considered sacred by the church. What's more, they use copyright to attempt to prevent anyone from spreading them around.
If you hold with keeping sacred what others want kept sacred, though, you won't read what you're looking for.
If you're willing to violate that sacrity, of course, there's lots out there (many of the teachings of scientology have been read into court records, for instance, which are then reproduced in a manner protected from copyright lawsuits).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Please don't. There is no need whatsoever for you to waste even a moment of your time "researching" the "truth" -- if any -- in Scientology. Trust me.
That's the impression I'm getting so far in researching it. That's why I said my brain hurts. Posts: 339 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Heh, in a situation similar to though more extreme than your own, Occasional, all but the most basic teachings of Scientology (which are just some modest slightly offbeat psychology, really) are considered sacred by the church.
Sacred? Or dangerous/useless if they haven't 'progressed' to the point where the knowledge would be useful to them, even if they spent the required $19,000 to receive the knowledge?
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Both, Dave. Scientologists have been quite clear that they consider those teachings secrets of their religion which should only be shown to prepared believers. I don't know what other definition of sacred you prefer to operate under.
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And last I heard, hearing all the secrets required much more than $19,000, at least theoretically (the church would, of course, loan you the money at extremely high interest rates), more like an order of magnitude and a good deal of change more.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: I am uncomfortable reading and hearing such derogitory remarks about Scientology masked as "explanations" of the faith. As unbiased as possible, and I know there are people here who can be close to that, where can I get information about the religion from those who are believers? What are the "sacred books" and "sources of doctrines" that they use? If no one can be objective about that, then at least tell me where I can make up my own mind.
Occasional,
I think it all begins with the book Dianetics. This was explained to me as the gateway book for their religion/belief system. I've not read it, but I am curious about what's inside. However, after tring to read Battlefield Earth I couldn't get myself to read another word written by Hubbard.
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Quick summation: all bad thoughts are remembered traumas from our past lives as enslaved, ultimately blown-up super-advanced aliens. You can track down and root out your bad thoughts by having someone ask you leading questions about your biases and traumas with a lie detector after putting you into a suggestible state; if all these bad thoughts are rooted out, you will become a perfect, flawless person.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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If we were super-advanced, then why were we enslaved?
I distinctly remeber being one of the leaders of the rebellion. We attacked this big sphere that was gonna blow up our base. Thank god for that new guy! Who would'ah thought the rookie could have saved the day?!
The more I read about this "religion" the less I can take it seriously. I can't believe anyone would subscribe to it.
They were just talking about it with Cruise’s new girl on one of the entertainment news shows. She says she likes it because it makes her a better person. Good luck to her then.
I for one say set phasers on kill.
Posts: 339 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:And last I heard, hearing all the secrets required much more than $19,000
That's not all that much for somebody to donate/pay to their religion. Tithing (10%), which many people in other religions give, can easily be more than that over a few years.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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In my experience with the Christian faith, very few people dropped the 10% in the plate they were supposed to. If they had, we could'ah blinged out our whole church!
Could have put spinners on the bus, Pastors could have got gold capped teeth, Choir could have all had gold chains.
I went to a large Christian church with a lot of wealthy people.
Posts: 339 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Yes, but aside from Scientology, have you ever heard of a religion that requires money for you to ascend to higher levels, or get saved, or have your sins taken away, of get a slot in heaven?
When someone tells me I have to pay for my spirituality, that's when I walk away.
"There's a sucker born every minute." -P.T. Barnum
And I repeat:
"The God I belive in isn't short of cash, mister." -Bono of U2
Posts: 339 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:side from Scientology, have you ever heard of a religion that requires money for you to ascend to higher levels
While I would never put it that way, that could be said of my faith, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saits, or Mormons).
We believe that certain saving ordinances, including the sealing (temple marriage), can only be received in one of the temples of our church. In order to enter the temple, you have to be a member in good standing. Part of being in good standing is paying a full tithe.
So if you don't give tithing, you are not allowed full participation in the rites and ceremonies (we call them ordinances) of our religion.
Of course, tithing is nothing new. It's as old as the Old Testament.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I feel what you are saying is different though. A Mormon does not have to tithe to be a member of the church do they?
If not, then what you are saying is that LDS’ that do tithe are allowed special privileges under the church’s doctrine. That’s not the same a telling someone they have to pay to be a member.
People who have to pay for a relationship with God (or the aliens, or whatever) are being taken for a ride.
I'll be right back. I have a lot of pancakes and grilled-cheese-sandwitches with religious figures on them that I need to post on eBay. Posts: 339 | Registered: Mar 2005
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We believe that tithing is a commandment, and not an optional one. When I was a missionary, the policy was to not baptize anybody into our church unless they were willing to pay tithing.
But then, nobody forces or coerces anybody to pay. There are many members of our church who do not pay a full tithe.
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See, to me it feels like Scientology is doing just that. They are forcing people to pay.
I understand the importance of paying for the church's operational costs, but how much cash does any faith need? Enough to pay the bills and have some occasional special functions/missions/events IMHO.
I guess I'm just highly skeptical of anyone that asks me for cash for something, especially for my relationship with the divine.
I feel Scientology is exploiting it's members for it's own benefits.
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I can understand your skepticism. I think it makes a big difference what the money is used for.
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Tom: except that, even when you've become a "clear" getting rid of all the bad aliens, you then need to get rid of all the bad memories of your good aliens.
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So, does Scientology have a missionary program? Considering what has been said so far it would seem advantageous for them to recruit new members.
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Oh yes, they have an extensive missionary program, mainly utilizing recent converts as proselytizers near their centers.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:I am uncomfortable reading and hearing such derogitory remarks about Scientology masked as "explanations" of the faith. As unbiased as possible, and I know there are people here who can be close to that, where can I get information about the religion from those who are believers? What are the "sacred books" and "sources of doctrines" that they use? If no one can be objective about that, then at least tell me where I can make up my own mind.
The Wikipedia Article link that was provided before has sites at the bottom of the article where you can find links to pro-Scientology sites, as well as critical and neutral sites.
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
We Catholics are guilty of the pay for privilages doctrine as well. Lee Iacoca was able to get an anullment of his marriage (by the Pope if I remember correctly) after a substantial donation to the church.
Posts: 514 | Registered: May 2005
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I think there's a vast difference between tithing and the money the Scientologists require to achieve spiritual salvation.
To my understanding, the money from tithing is used to support the church and its programs and for charitable purposes. I remember reading an article about an LDS Bishop (I think it was a Bishop - sorry if it wasn't) who would use a certain amount of his funding to help members of his congregation (ward?) in very specific ways - he bought a used car for one woman so that she could get to work, he provided the deposit money so that a family could move to a better neighborhood, and things like that. I remember thinking that it was a great way to help people.
Also, in almost every Christian church and Jewish synagogue, you have to pay membership dues. Temples and churches don't build and maintain themselves and clergypeople have to eat. However, I've never been to a shul that required people to join in order to attend services and I imagine it's the same in churches. I've also never heard of a shul that wouldn't work something out if a family couldn't afford the membership dues (b/c contrary to popular belief, not all Jews are rich) and I imagine that's the same for churches, too.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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The LDS church (as an added, possibly irrelevant comment) doesn't have paid clergy. Our clergy have their own regular jobs, whether that be school teacher, business person, fireman, doctor, or janitor, and they fulfill their callings of bishop, branch president, or whatever in their spare time. In other words, it's a church of volunteers. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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johnsonweed, the Kennedy annulment was also a shameful moment for American Catholics. I was *so* angry when I heard about that.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Fishtail: johnsonweed, the Kennedy annulment was also a shameful moment for American Catholics. I was *so* angry when I heard about that.
I suppose that old habits are hard to break in the C-church.
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