posted
Hello everyone. Im new to the board and wanted to ask a question. I find this topic very interesting becuase I am huge fan of Harry Potter. However, my dad has constantly told me that Harry Potter is evil because it promotes witchcraft (as echoed by some of the people many have mentioned here). Obviously, this implies that witchcraft itself is evil, so here is my question: why is witchcraft evil? What part of witchcraft is evil and therefore should not be taught? I was just wondering. Any thoughts?
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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all references to 'witchcraft' in the Bible condemn it as an evil to be avoided (Galations 5:20, Nahum 3:4, Micah 5:12, 2 Chron 33:6, 2 King 9:22, and Deut 18:10, for examples). It is considered a form of idolatry.
quote: all references to 'witchcraft' in the Bible condemn it as an evil to be avoided (Galations 5:20, Nahum 3:4, Micah 5:12, 2 Chron 33:6, 2 King 9:22, and Deut 18:10, for examples). It is considered a form of idolatry.
Farmgirl, is there any reason given as to its evil? Is there some practice that makes it evil in the Bible? Oh and good to meet you!
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posted
The obvious (and by obvious, I mean the one that somebody who hasn't studied this can pull out of his ear) is that what Farmgirl said -- it is considered a form of idolatry.
In the Bible, worshiping anything other than the One True God is counted as evil. So were many things that were associated with the worship of other gods.
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quote: In the Bible, worshiping anything other than the One True God is counted as evil. So were many things that were associated with the worship of other gods.
So, why arent such people as actors, musicians, artists, or politicians and things such as music, movies, and television considered evil? I can imagine that these people and things are worshipped and take away worship from God.
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posted
Actually Humean316, some people consider those things to be evil. I don't really consider them to be evil in and of themselves, but putting those things before God in your life is a sin a.k.a. evil.
Posts: 36 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: Short answer Humean --
all references to 'witchcraft' in the Bible condemn it as an evil to be avoided (Galations 5:20, Nahum 3:4, Micah 5:12, 2 Chron 33:6, 2 King 9:22, and Deut 18:10, for examples). It is considered a form of idolatry.
FG
Wow, I can never pull out reference like that.
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quote:I think the silliest are the people who let their kids read LotR and not HP.
I don't find this any sillier. LotR takes place in a very purposely "Christian" (pre-Christ Christian, to be specific) world. I can think of several reasons for not wanting kids to read HP that wouldn't apply to LotR. I disagree with those reasons, but they are logically consistent given the premises of the person making them.
What are those reasons? I can't think of any that would make it consistent that it's okay for Gandalf to be a wizard in LOTR but not for Harry Potter to be one. Maybe I'm missing something, though.
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posted
One obvious reason is that in HP, it goes into a great deal of detail about studying magic, increasing magic abilities, etc..
In LotR, the magic is always being done by larger-than-life characters that the viewpoint character can never really understand (Gandal, Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc.).
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posted
Technically, Gandalf is an angelic-like being, rather than a human who attained greater than normal power. But then, Harry Potter was born the way he was, so I don't see how either character would inspire children to try witchcraft.
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posted
Also, he is not only not human, he is way before Christ, or even before Abraham, even if it is assumed to be any sort of "history" of our world, even an imaginary.
If you can see that some people consider witchcraft against their religion, why can't you understand why they don't want any books, particularly ones directed at children, to condone anything that resembles it. Some of them consider the books to be condoning and praising a practice that goes completely against some of their religions cherished ideals; some are worried about kids becoming "desensitized" to the very idea of it.
I don't happen to agree with any of those views, and I hate it when people make such a stink over these things, but I do understand where they are coming from, and try to avoid insulting them about it.
Usually they manage to be insulted anyway though, if I show them my library.
If Harry Potter is evil, then my library must belong to the Anti-Christ. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:What are those reasons? I can't think of any that would make it consistent that it's okay for Gandalf to be a wizard in LOTR but not for Harry Potter to be one. Maybe I'm missing something, though.
Both MPH and Shigosei touch on the major reasons. Gandalf is an immortal spirit charged by God's appointed ruler on Earth to use magic in the defense of Middle Earth. That's quite a dispensation.
In every reference to humans doing magic (and there's not many) it is clear that something wrong is being done.
Any use of power beyond ones station is fraught with peril in Tolkien's world.
Above all there's no sense that going to school to learn magic is an acceptable thing to do.
As I said, I don't buy the HP attacks, either. But there is a significant difference.
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posted
One thing to understand about the concern about witchcraft: most people that believe it is evil believe it is real, and that its power is an unholy one.
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posted
I remember getting into this discussion with a lady at the gym, when I saw an add on one of theTVs for the last HP movie, and said I'd like to see it. Her response was, "You're into that trash?"
Heh. Not a good way to start in with me, lady.
Anyway, HER kids were too old for Harry Potter, but she though LotR was okay, and when I asked why, she said it was because Tolkien was a Christian.
"And Rowling is what? A single mother?"
"You never know what people are really doing in their lives."
O_O
I amused myself by pointing at her with my pen and saying "Crucio!"
I thought that fact that it didn't work sort of proved my point... but some people cannot be convinced that their pastor is wrong. They have to have some absolute to hold on to, and sometimes that absolute is whatever someone they choose to trust tells them to believe.
Funny thing, though - one of her teenaged sons was in jail for a drug offense. O_O
But at least he's not a wizard.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Dag, I disagree...I see a lot of magic, and a lot of the magical, in all of Tolkiens world, not all done by Wixards. Power came in many forms, and all of it fraught with peril, but Aragorn has strength beyond that of a mortal man, and magical items are all over his world, in use by mortals.
Not the same as a wizards school, to be sure, but not an absolute ban on mortals using magic either.
posted
Aragorn doesn't use magic - he has a strain of Elvish that gives him strength and long life. His sword was forged by a dwarf ages ago. The Palantir aren't magic - which is another distinction Toliien makes. The hobbits call things "magic" that the elves just consider normal.
I'm not saying there's not magic everywhere, but no mortal uses it with impunity.
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posted
Of course ... it takes such a level of analysis to understand this distinction that 99% of LOTR readers/viewers see no difference whatsoever between Gandalf and your average D&D wizard Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Wow, I can never pull out reference like that.
johnsonweed -- you give me too much credit. I keep my handy BibleGateway.com site up on another tab to look up references....
I think the "evilness" of witchcraft (in a general sense in real life, not in fiction, I'm talking about) is due to the fact that it is a person trying to gain power for himself/herself. Whereas Christians believe any supernatural power should come from God, or as a gift from God, not something a person is seeking to try to acquire as a power on their own. That would be the idolatry tie-in -- in witchcraft that power because their God instead of God being their God. At least that's how I've understood it -- but I really haven't done any kinda of in-depth research on this topic, in a religious sense.
posted
There is an old saying, "Magic is what someone does who is not of my faith, Miracles are what someone does who is of my faith."
An example of this is Joan of Arc, the Maiden of Orleans. For the French nationalists (though not all of them) she was inspired by God and blessed with miracles. For the English and Burgundians, she was a Witch who perfomred spells and talked with devils, if she wasn't outright a liar.
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posted
FG, actually, the "evilness" of witchcraft, as I understand it, is that you're asking for power from sources other than God -- power which many people believe exists. "Demons, powers and authorities", y'know. The Bible is pretty clear throughout that there are other spiritual powers than God, but that they are not benevolent and *that's* why we shouldn't worship them. Though your definition certainly holds true too.
It is critical (IMO) to understand that HP isn't engaging in spiritual magic (also called invocational magic, where a spirit is invoked to be commanded to do something), but rather incantational magic, which draws on no spiritual power. In other words, he's just saying some words that since he has the innate gift, actually accomplish something. Sort of like being psychic. It's an innate talent he was born with. He's *not* making a deal with the devil to accomplish his means. This is important because Harry is constantly and consistantly using that incantational magic (an inborn talent, honed with discipline) to acheive good. If we were reading that Harry was invoking a familiar spirit to acheive good, that would glorify witchcraft in a way that would be anti-Biblical, largely because such spirits are believed to actually exist but not with the benevolence such a portrayal would imply.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yes, everything you said I absolutely agree with, jeniwren. And since I don't believe that anyone in reality is born with a "gift" such as Harry's -- that is why reading it as fiction doesn't bother me in the slightest. (That is not saying that I don't believe there is such a real thing as black magic, drawn from powers other than God's.)
posted
Well, of course, he's fictional. But to the next door neighbor kid, who has always loved witches and wizards since he was 2, HP and Gandalf are his heroes. They are more real to him that President Bush.
Now I'm a sad that *I* don't have such a talent. We're gutting our house to make it easier to show (it went on the market yesterday), and it would be nice to sit on Hatrack and just let my talent take care of the packing.
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posted
I've been adamantly opposed to Harry Potter ever since my nephew turned his little sister into a frog. I really don't see how anybody can support this sort of thing.
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If you can see that some people consider witchcraft against their religion, why can't you understand why they don't want any books, particularly ones directed at children, to condone anything that resembles it. Some of them consider the books to be condoning and praising a practice that goes completely against some of their religions cherished ideals; some are worried about kids becoming "desensitized" to the very idea of it.
That's not the part I didn't understand. Like you, I don't agree with that reasoning, but I could understand it. What I didn't get was why one brand of wizardry was good and another was bad, but Dag, Shigosei, and mph explained that as well, so it makes more sense now.
quote:Of course ... it takes such a level of analysis to understand this distinction that 99% of LOTR readers/viewers see no difference whatsoever between Gandalf and your average D&D wizard.
Yep, and that's where my problem was coming from! Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Did is the sort of religious stuff that always pisses me off declaring such and such evil decadent and immoral. Bah I say! I love HP, and LOTR and DragonLance and Forgottem Realms just as much of the next person, but its utterly rediculas! All these books almost ALWAYS have a good vs evil thing blah!
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I do read tarot, but I haven't in a while; I do find that most of my readings do turn out (which is why i haven't read in a while). I find it to be more of a personal supplement than a religious or spritual one, because, esentially, one looks at the images and picks things out that relates to their situation, and the is able to organize it in a way to analyze it.
I'm becoming more atheist because I've started looking at things from a rationalist/scientific point of view.
Posts: 463 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'm still learning with the cards. My wife is very good with them.
I can see your point of view when you say you are looking at things from a rational perspective. But let me just say that it is my experience that when you completely shut our your own spirituality you will suffer on a psychological and emotional level. At least, that's what happened to me. It’s my belief that human beings have a connection to things outside of the physical world whether you believe in God of not. Make sure you don't close that door.
Blessings my friend and good luck with your journey. Posts: 339 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
thank you--but, I don't think I'm quite there, but I am awfully close. There's still a small part of me that's left that has a slight mistrust of that rationality, sometimes. Because sometimes, there is not a rational reason.
Posts: 463 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
My best friend growing up was Born Again Christian. Her mom was a wee bit insane, I decided one day when I went over to play. She found out that I was Mormon, pointed a finger at me and declared, "You belong to the church of the DEVIL!"
I went to some of their church activities because there was a cute boy there that my friend and I fawned over. I remember them showing a movie about "The Occult". I got a strong sense of very emotional propaganda against anything that might border on occultish. I adored unicorns at that age, and I remember this friend telling me that her mom said unicorns were of the Occult. Which, of course, meant that they were Evil. I just couldn't understand that. Unicorns represented all that was good, holy, sacred, whole, etc. How could they possibly be Evil?
But at the same time, I think I understand why they feel this way, and several people here have already done a beautiful job of describing that.
So when people go crazy about the HP books, I am not surprised. I have seen first hand how frightened some Christians are of anything that smells like witchcraft. Anything "fantasy" at all falls into that category.
I grew up loving fantasy far more than boring "realistic" stuff, and my world would have seemed bleak without it. I guess in the minds of those who hate/ fear HP that meant I was on the pathway to hell.
But I grew up Mormon. I don't know why witchcraft wasn't that big a deal, it just wasn't. Maybe it had to do with the fact that we have living prophets who "trump" anything found in older scripture. We grow up accustomed to the idea that there are certain things that are important to the people of God at certain times. Because our modern-day prophets hardly blinked an eye at witchcraft, the silent message was sent that that just isn't a big deal now like it was years and years ago. We don't know why. We can speculate, but it isn't important.
Granted, growing up *I* was taught that ouiji boards, tarot cards, rock music, hypnosis, D&D, and similar things were Evil. I was taught this by my mother specifically. It is possible that these things were echos of her own Protestant upbringing.
Certainly the church to which I belong doesn't encourage these things, but they aren't focused on either. They are far more concerned about teaching us not to drink alchohol or have pre-marital sex. But while my mom didn't particularly like sci-fi and fantasy herself, she didn't discourage me and my siblings from being so deeply drawn to speculative fiction. She was more concerned with whether things were "uplifting" or "dark".
It seems to me that our Christian communities have a long history of persecuting witches because of what was said in the Bible, and often (I believe) using it as an excuse to kill people who were considered troublemakers. I believe that they were misguided and did terrible harm and damage. I don't believe they were doing God's will at all.
But I do believe it is these echos of that deep, irrational fear against witches that continues with us today and causes people to fear/hate HP.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
And yet so many Mormons like Star Wars. Well, maybe that was just my mom. It was one of the things she would let us watch on Sunday. Also Ripley's believe it or Not, because she thought it was quite often informative.
I was shocked when my husband told me that some of the stuff on Ripley's isn't real. Now I'm not so sure. Is there really a gold bathtub shaped like a quail that you can rent the use of?
My husband also thinks Feng Shui borders on the occult. There are a lot of Feng Shui sites that also talk about casting spells on the internet. It kind of makes me mad as someone with a cultural interest in it that they try to use it that way, generally for a small fee.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:one looks at the images and picks things out that relates to their situation, and the is able to organize it in a way to analyze it.
There's a series of books by John Sandford that features a painter/hacker/industrial spy named Kidd. He uses the tarot this way, calling it a gaming aid. It forces you to look at aspects of the situation you might not be paying attention to.
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: Of course ... it takes such a level of analysis to understand this distinction that 99% of LOTR readers/viewers see no difference whatsoever between Gandalf and your average D&D wizard
Bah. Gandalf is NOTHING like the average D&D wizard. He engages in melee combat far too much, and the vast majority of wizards are not proficient with any type of swords. He's maybe a fighter/wizard multiclass.
Posts: 1466 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Disclaimer: I've read all the Harry Potter books, and think that they're great books. That said, I have heard one argument against reading the Harry Potter books that's very different than most, and even though I don't think it's a strong enough argument to consider the books off-limits, I do think that there is something to it.
So what's the argument?
In the second book, we are introduced to the Mandrakes. Plants that look like babies, like children - and are mashed up as part of various potions.
Of course, in the real world, if plants existed that looked like people, but didn't actually have any minds/souls, then of course the lives of people would take precedence over their "lives" - even if the process involved mashing them up. The argument was that JKR creates, introduces and uses them casually, without even seeming to realize the implication of using a plant that looks like a child as part of a potion. This offense was enough, so the argument went, that the books should be kept away from children.
(The person in question wasn't against any and all violence in books; she was against violence that wasn't portrayed as bad, or at least only the last-ditch option.)
Anyway, I've always thought that argument was interesting, and I've always wanted to ask JKR what on earth she was thinking when she created those Mandrakes. Maybe when they reach the age at which they become ripe, they suddenly stop looking human.... Perhaps JKR has always had that in mind, but it never ended up in the books. I hope so, because I really do enjoy the HP books, and I don't like to think that JKR would create something with such grotesque implications, even if it was through oversight.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I think it all goes back to Simon Magus, The Church just cannot have the miraculous occuring outside the perview of the clergy. Even if a person is doing all the same things Jesus did, that just makes it worse, though I cannot imagine what could be more Christian then that.
Harry Potter is a fantasticly constructed story, for that reason alone it deserves to be read. But the fact that it opens children up to wonderful possibilities makes it a God send. If Madam Pomfrey healing the sick with magic bothers anyone, well that is sad for them.
I've always wanted to ask JKR what on earth she was thinking when she created those Mandrakes.
Keep in mind, that like most of JKR's "creations," mandrakes (and their human-like appearance) are not original to her. One of the wonderful things about her writing is the way she takes long-standing mythology and tweaks it.
posted
There are more things to beware in HP than just witchcraft.
The children constantly disobey authority figures, which is a bad precedent, and they're often right and triumph by doing so, which is an even worse one.
They skip classes, act up, and actively work against their teachers. And they become heroes.
Not a problem for me or my kids, we love the books. But it's a concern for some people, that truants and vandals and kids who talk back are shown to be the good guys.
There have also been several excellent Christian articles on how to use Harry Potter to teach your kids the values displayed: loyalty, responsibility, education, friendship, etc.
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posted
My major moral problem with the books would be the whole underlying structure of wizarding society. They constantly manipulate the memories of muggles with no regard for the propriety of doing so. There is no moral disapproval of this at all - even the best characters seem to take it for granted that this is acceptable behavior.
Again, though, that's a topic for discussion, not a reason to reject the books out of hand.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
On the subject of children not respecting the authority of those with wisdom, I actually really appreciate the HP books for showing teens and pre-teens just how hard it is to be an adult.
Particularly as the books have progressed, we see Dumbledore walking an increasingly fine line with all the politics and conniving he has to deal with. Where a teenager like Harry Potter (or any other teen character in the book) would jump in and start whining and thus get him/herself in trouble, Dumbledore choses his words and actions *very* carefully. Where an idealistic teen leaps in with guns blazing, getting themselves into trouble, Dumbledore often withholds the frustration he must feel in favor of being subtle, yet effective. He has to deal with the sort of politics and nonesense that adults have to put up with every day in "the real world". He is deft and admirably wise in doing so, and sets an excellent example (I think) for the kids reading the book.
It's not just Dumbledore, but the other "good" teachers on the staff. I really treasure this about these books, particularly considering the audience.
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posted
*nods at bev* I like how the books illustrate that snap judgements about people are often wrong and that prejudice can blind. Snape is a really good example.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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lol, ya I remember when I was reading HP for the first time I'm like "Snape is the one! He's the evil person!" Then I find out its mister quirel and I'm stunned.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Yup. In those books, only wizards and witches are real people.
True, but in the later books it becomes clear that the way the witches and wizards do things is not necessarily the best, either. In Book 5, especially, she makes a point of showing how wizard-centric their world has become, and how that can be a bad thing. Mostly at this point that's in relation to the other magical sentient species, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the future books that starts to extend to their attitudes about muggles as well.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:I remember when I was reading HP for the first time I'm like "Snape is the one! He's the evil person!" Then I find out its mister quirel and I'm stunned.
If it had been Snape, I would never have read another HP book again.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I've always wanted to ask JKR what on earth she was thinking when she created those Mandrakes.
Keep in mind, that like most of JKR's "creations," mandrakes (and their human-like appearance) are not original to her. One of the wonderful things about her writing is the way she takes long-standing mythology and tweaks it.
Yes, I do know that JKR didn't come up with mandrakes; I suppose "created" was the wrong word to use. What I meant by that was "creating" Mandrakes that didn't just vaguely resemble humans, but actually look very, very much like babies, actually cry, and so forth. What JKR did with the mandrakes was very clever, yes - but the concept is still grotesque. I imagine that this factor never occured to her, but I still really wish it hadn't been included - or at least that some mention had been made of the roots losing their human resemblance once fully mature and ready for use.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
The thing is about Harry Potter is that the powers that the people have don't come from the devil. That is why the Bible condemns withcraft - it comes from the devil.
However, in Harry Potter, the witchcraft and such are merely treated like the knacks in Alvin Maker. There are good people who use them and bad people who use them, and the power doesn't come from an evil source.
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