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Author Topic: Joss Whedon ( Firefly creator )
ailurophobic
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I've seen a lot of hype about Firefly (and more importantly, Serenity), but little about any of Joss Whedon's earlier stuff. You know, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel.

I regard Joss Whedon as highly as I do OSC (a mighty thing for me). He's a genius, an amazing writer, an amazing person. I love the dialogue, the subtlety, the humor, the characters. He has no website that I stalk like Hatrack (not sure he has a website at all), but that doesn't mean I don't love him.

So, whaddya say? Any other BtVS fans out there?

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Earendil18
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Not yeeet. [Big Grin]

I WILL thump you with my Firefly DVD's though.

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Kwea
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quote:
but little about any of Joss Whedon's earlier stuff. You know, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel.
You have GOT to be kidding... [Big Grin]


Try using teh search engine, there are TONS of threads about those shows.


Too many, really, for such fluffy shows, entertaining as they were in the first few seasons... [Wink]

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Tarrsk
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I'm one of the few people who watched Firefly first, then went back and watched Buffy and Angel on DVD. I'm about halfway through Buffy right now, and just finished the first season of Angel, and am enjoying them greatly. The witty wordplay and lively characters that I love in Firefly are very much in abundance in Joss' other two series as well (although as someone who doesn't instinctively enjoy horror, I do still prefer the sci-fi setting and adult situations presented in Firefly). [Smile]
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Princess Leah
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I looooooove Buffy! I only started watching this year. I was skeptical. "A superheor named Buffy ?" I thought. "This cannot be good." But then my Buffy-obsessed friends more or less tied me down and made me watch the first episode, and I loved it! Now I've converted my brother. My 13 year old brother. Buffy is awesome.

[Evil Laugh] <--- demon.

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ailurophobic
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Sorry, Kwea, but obviously I'm a hideous N00b who has no right to start topics on her own. XD I'm making fun of myself, because I really am a n00b. I don't frequent message boards much, and I guess it was my fault for just surfing through the first few pages of theads

But yeah, Leah-- I read, and I'm quoting someone else, that Buffy would either be stupid or the anti-stupid. I'm glad it's the anti.

I tend to get a little sleep-drunk at three AIM. Pardon inane babble, and thank you for being patient with me and my redundant board. ;D

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ailurophobic
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Oh! Earendil.. please do!

The only Firefly I've seen was on Fox, and disjointed bits of random episodes at that.

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Bean Counter
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I am pretty much a devoted fan, I loved the recycling from Buffy and Angel to Firefly, lots of return faces.

BC

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ailurophobic
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I loved the transition of Spike from Buffy to Angel. He's always been a favorite of mine, but no surprises there: I am a teenage girl, afterall.
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Alcon
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*chuckle*

Hey, Spike's a favoriate character of mine and I'm a straight male, so has little to do with that [Razz]

I love Firefly and I started watching Buffy. I love the characters and the dialogue and the humor but... Buffy's not really what I was looking for right now. Its too dark and too serious, and too horrory. I liked the first season well enough and some of the second season, but I really just don't enjoy the atmosphere. Nor the fact that some of the characters get seriously hurt or killed off. One of the things I liked about Firefly was that no matter what all the characters were ok at the end of the episode. Perhaps that would have changed had the show gone on, but for the first season anyway it held true. Also Buffy lacked the interest of backstory for all of the characters. We know Buffy's backstory as well as Willows and Xanders and all of them. One of the awesome things about Firefly was that all of the characters had very mysterious pasts that was slowly being revealed as the show progressed. I missed that aspect of Buffy.

So end verdict: Buffy's cool and maybe I'll get back into it at a later date when I'm more in the mood for it, but Firefly is a lot better than Buffy.

I still haven't seen Angel. But then I don't really like the character of Angel that much from Buffy. He's too... boring? Of course I haven't gotten to his transformation into Angelus in the second season yet. *shrug* Probably won't for a while yet.

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Chris Bridges
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Alcon - don't give up on Angel.

My wife and I started watching Buffy late. I had seen it off and on but never got interested until I taped the musical for a friend who wasn't near a TV that night. After that I started watching and we went in half with my brother-in-law to buy all the DVD sets as they came out. Loved the show, we've watched the whole thing three or four times now.

But hated Angel. Too broody, too mopey (although he's a lot of fun when he's evil). For that matter, after the first two seasons we didn't really like Buffy that much. All of her scenes became "woe is me" scenes. Nothing against the actress, we loved it when she got to play against type and become drunk or a cavewoman or whatever. But if she and Angel were on screen together we just sat back and waited patiently for Willow or Spike to show up again [Smile]

Then we watched the first season of Angel --
mainly because we had run out of Buffys and were jonesing -- and we were surprised how much we liked it. He's not nearly as angsty when Buffy isn't around, and the supporting cast makes it all worthwhile.

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breyerchic04
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alcon, shut up, you're addicted, and just need to come to terms with this. (I mean this in the nicest friendliest way I could, but it will probably be edited at sometime after 9 am)
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Katarain
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It took me a long time of being here to realize there were other Buffy fans, too. And I actually did a search. I remember finding 2 or 3 references to the show, but they were never positive. People just didn't "get" it, so I thought that I simply wouldn't find other Buffy fans here. Boy was I wrong. I don't know if they just started watching Buffy AFTER Firefly or what...but the fans crawled out of the woodwork and here they are... [Smile]

Anyway... I'm a huge fan of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. In that order. Although I don't really think that Firefly should have to compete with Buffy and Angel. It's a completely different show, and I only put it third out of loyalty to Buffy and Angel. If I could put it in another track, it would be first right next to Buffy... [Smile]

Anyway... Joss Whedon is pretty exceptional.

Oh... what REALLY shocked me is when I saw OSC praise Buffy at the end of an article dissing Star Trek. I had never heard him mention it before. I didn't think it was really his thing.

-Katarain

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jebus202
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quote:
People just didn't "get" it
::grinds teeth::
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beverly
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I loved BtVS! I can't remember the last time I enjoyed storytelling so much. Well, probably reading Octavia Butler or OSC. I don't own the DVDs yet, but I would like to.

We just finished Buffy a few nights ago. We were trying to keep our watching of Angel and Buffy in sync, but there came a point where I found myself just not caring what happened in Angel anymore.

Luv the theme song, though. ^_^

I think I lost some respect for the show Angel during the episodes that took place in Lorn's dimension. They were so incredibly stupid, and they weren't even funny to make up for it. And the whole thing with the vampire pregnancy and birth did little for me.

Yeah, I imagine Angel gets a lot better when Spike joins on. Spike was the best part of BtVS, and is just the "oomph" that Angel needs to really get off the ground.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I was pretty much out of the pop culture scene from 1992 to 2000. When I started watching TV again, I had heard of Buffy, but it's fans were so rabid that it turned me off from being interested at all.

But when it came out on TV, I watched every episode of Firefly. I loved it. I watched the DVDs as soon as I could. I loved it.

So when Buffy started getting shown on FX about a year ago, I kinda started watching it. I was surprised to learn that I liked it.

Bev and I started netflixing Buffy. The day before yesterday we finished the final disc of Buffy. Now we need to go back and finishe angel -- we're in the middle of the third episode right where Connor gets stolen.

It doesn't surprise me at all to find OSC praising Buffy.

I was listening to the commentary for the pilot Serenity yesterday, and Joss said something almost identical to something that I've read Card write -- that every villan is the hero of the story he tells himself.

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The Pixiest
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I watched Firefly because I was already a big Buffy and Angel fan.

I sorta refused to watch Buffy at first because I hated the movie, but after I heard enough positive things about it I gave in and got hooked. It's probably my favorite show. I have all the DVDs and have watched it several times.

Angel was good, but it had a serious Willow deficiency that no amount of guest appearances could overcome. Still, it's a good show and worth watching. I highly recommend the puppet episode in the last season and the Pylia trilogy at the end of the 2nd season. Avoid any episode with Conner.

Firefly never had a chance to develop like the Buffyverse shows did (7 Buffy + 5 Angel). If it had had a 12 year run, we would have seen entire seasons we didn't like. We would have gotten to know everything about every main character. People would have died and new people would have joined. And I thoroughly believe we would have had one of the best shows ever made.

Instead, we get to savour 12 episodes of greatness (plus "The Message"), One movie and hope for more.

Pix

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Chris Bridges
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I wasn't terribly happy with the Lorne dimension episodes -- certainly didn't need more than one of them -- but as I understand it they were setting up some plot points for later and offering light-hearted shows to offset the really gloomy ones Buffy was showing.

Spike really does spice up Angel and has some great lines all through it, but I still think that bringing him aboard devalued his sacrifice in BtVS. Didn't ruin him in Angle for me, but I can't watch that epiosde of Buffy and care as much anymore.

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The Pixiest
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I'm shocked to see you guys hate the pylia stories. I thought they were hysterical! Especially any scene with Lorne's mom.

"Numfar! Do the Dance of Shame!" (Numfar was played by Joss Whedon, so that's the creator jumping around in the background)

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beverly
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They were sooooo *NOT* funny.

OK, I have to admit that knowing that it was Joss doing the Dance of Shame makes me chuckle. [Smile]

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Chris Bridges
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I did like Angel seeing himself in the mirror ("Was this thing with my hair always here? Was it?") and his general giddiness, and a dancing Joss is always good, but it seemed a bit forced to me. It also may have made a difference that I first saw them all back to back, instead of once a week.
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Kwea
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No problem, that is why I used smileys.. [Wink]
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FlyingCow
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Linky.
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Amanecer
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I love Buffy! For years, the images of ridiculous looking monsters turned me off from it completely. Then I heard about the musical, and watched it. I was intrigued and then I noticed my library had the first season of Buffy. I checked it out and soon I was hooked. [Smile] Now I've been through the whole series twice. It's incredible! One of my favorite things about it is the beautiful consistancy. Apart from one horrid sixth season episode (where she claims she was in a mental hospital before she came to Sunnydale), the show remains true to all that has happened before.

I'm currently watching Angel via Blockbuster Online rentals. I'm in the middle of the third season. Previously, I caught two episodes of Angel on TNT and was appaled by it. But about a month ago I decided to give it a try and I am impressed by how good it is. The two episodes I caught happen to be the two worst episodes I've seen of it yet. (Angel decides to destroy the ring that made him invincible because it would be a reward that he doesn't deserve. And then Angel gets turned into a human and is happy with Buffy. But he decides he can't stay a human because he wants to be able to fight. That episode especially irked me since in the second season he gets all excited about the prospect of being human someday.) It's no Buffy, but I'm enjoying the show.

Firefly's good. Wish they're were more.

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Lupus
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I've seen every episode of Buffy and Angel...and have the DVDs of all the Buffy seasons. I loved both shows, but thought Buffy was better than Angel.

Here is a great Buffy/Angel site I found:
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/

she reviews and summarizes (and gives trivia) almost all of the episodes of Buffy and Angel. She is now working through the ones that she missed early in the series.

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Katarain
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Aah... if we're sharing buffy/angel sites, Hellmouth Central is one of the best out there. They take themselves a little less seriously now that the shows are over, but they're a great place for Buffy/Angel information and actor/writer news and more.

-Katarain

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Apart from one horrid sixth season episode (where she claims she was in a mental hospital before she came to Sunnydale), the show remains true to all that has happened before.
Not really. Some things that didn't jive for me:

There was one episode in the 3rd or 2nd season where all the parents go all crazy zealot and try to burn Willow as a witch. This episode totally doesn't fit in with the rest of the show.

Near the beginning of Angel, he becomes a human again for a day. He decides to go back to being a vampire, because he is needed in the fight against evil. But a couple of seasons later, he gets all excited when he learns that he might be able to become a real boy again.

When convenient, Sunnydale is a podunk little town. When it is convenient, it is a thriving metropolis with an army base.

I never once believed that Willow would waste her time with Kennedy.

Early in Buffy, it is stated that demons are completely evil. Later, they are just different kinds of people, like aliens in Star Trek.

In the Buffy finalle, the ubervamps that it took Buffy forever to kill are killed easily by everybody, not just the slayers.

I realize that these are minor quips. All in all, it was a marvelously done show, and has much better continuity than most shows. For example, when Xander says to Willow "Let's see how *you* hanlde it when you have an evil twin!", Willow says "I handled it just fine.", referencing back several seasons ago when she did have one. On most shows like Star Trek, the fact that this happened to Willow would be completely forgotten.

One thing that I've really loved about Buffy is that they take scifi show cliches (somebody takes over the body of a main character, a character has an evil twin, etc.), embraces it, and does it spectacularly. Whedon doesn't breathe new life into the cliches by putting a new spin on them, but by doing them superbly.

[ July 10, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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ailurophobic
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It was the musical that did it for me, too. I no idea that Anthony Stewart Head had such an AMAZING voice, so of course I had to run out and buy his CD (Music for Elevators) after that. I didn't care much for the music at first, because I'm a country girl at home and at heart, but it grew on me.

I loved Lypea. "Numfar, do the dance of shame!" had me rolling on the ground and clutching my sides.

I've only seen episodes 1, 2, and 5 of Angel, so the whole Connor thing eludes me. Does it amaze anyone else how far Wesley and Cordy came? They really changed, and, I've been told it's believable. xD

(Holy crap, Doyle's death broke my fangirling heart.)

"It's.. it's MOUNTAIN DEW!"

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Amanecer
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mph- I certainly missed some. Especially "When convenient, Sunnydale is a podunk little town. When it is convenient, it is a thriving metropolis with an army base." Sorry for over simplifying.

However, a few comments:

quote:
There was one episode in the 3rd or 2nd season where all the parents go all crazy zealot and try to burn Willow as a witch. This episode totally doesn't fit in with the rest of the show.
This episode was as believable as the ongoing excuse that everyone in Sunnydale simply repressed their memories of vampires. Neither was too believable, but I don't think either was inconsistant with the setup of the show.

quote:
Near the beginning of Angel, he becomes a human again for a day. He decides to go back to being a vampire, because he is needed in the fight against evil. But a couple of seasons later, he gets all excited when he learns that he might be able to become a real boy again.
I completely agree and in fact listed this as something that annoyed me about Angel. Angel does not keep the consistancy of Buffy.

I also think that the demons just being another kind of people was far more rampant in Angel than Buffy and only spread to Buffy because of the way Angel evolved. Other than the Anya/Zander wedding episode and that Clem guy, demons were typically bad in Buffy. But yeah, that bothers me too.

quote:
I never once believed that Willow would waste her time with Kennedy.
I agree. I have lots of problems with the seventh season in general. And I HATED Kennedy.
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ailurophobic
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Yeah, Kennedy.. I think alot of that was just the show's writers trying to quiet the people who freaked out at them for killing Tara, making Willow the "token lonely gay person" or something.

But I agree. She could have been less bratty, and it could have been less sudden.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Does it amaze anyone else how far Wesley and Cordy came? They really changed, and, I've been told it's believable.
Again, I disagree.

Wesley goes from being an incompetent dork to almost immediately being a bad-ass fighter. How? We never know. Because the dork schtick wasn't funny anymore, I guess.

Cordelia is slightly more believable, but to me it's might be even more annoying. So many shows take it as a given that if you experience a lot of pain, it makes you deep. Cordy had a lot of pain, so OF COURSE she stops being the shallow pain that she was before. Nope -- people in pain are still people, and pain is not a panecea for spiritual enlightenment.

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beverly
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Well, give some credit. She is experiencing the pain of others. Even if it was completely "selfish", I can see the result being her wanting to stop that pain.
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Amanecer
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I agree with Beverly. I think the depth came from her increased desire to help others, not specifically from the pain.

As for Wesley, I think it was reasonably believable. He found a place that he fit in and was loved and gradually became more confident in himself. References to his father and his stay on Buffy, make it appear this might be the first time in his life that this happened. It's not unreasonable that he would change.

[Edited to add: I didn't, however, believe that Wesley would randomally sleep with that blond he met a bar. I think that was done just to make him "cooler".]

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ailurophobic
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Wesley also got away from the Watcher's Council. He wasn't too old to do a little bit of growing up.

Yeah, Cordy's growth came from the whole 'pain of others' thing, but I think getting pushed into the real world had a whole lot to do with it, too. She goes from Queen of Sunnydale to low-class actress pretty quickly. Could be a pretty harsh slap in the face. Highschool teenager to adult in the real world's a pretty big transition, too.

The shows were flavored a little differently; I can understand the character change. Look how far Willow and Xander came.

Also: When James Marsters landed Spike, I heard he was told he could do a Southern accent instead of his Mockney one. *bwah*

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mr_porteiro_head
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The part that I'm objecting to is him instantly going from physical incompetence to being a deadly killer.
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ailurophobic
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Can't defend that, because I haven't seen the 'in the middle' part. In seasons one and two, he was still a bumbling idiot pretty much most of the time.

Wesley with a pickaxe = love.

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Chris Bridges
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I remember Wesley growing into it. I think he was a bit more physically fit when he arrived on the scene, although he was still a dweeb. But he didn't get good overnight, it took a couple of seasons.
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mr_porteiro_head
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It could be a trick of perspective, but I recall watching him be an awesome fighter and saying "wasn't he all pathetic just a few episodes ago?"
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babager
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HUGE Buffy and Angel fan here.. Have never seen Firefly but would love to buy the season before the movie comes out.

Oh.. and I am sure many of you know this..but Joss Whedon is writing the screen play for the Wonder Woman movie. [Smile]

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beverly
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Joss has shown that he can do the woman as the hero (and not "just the heroine" as he himself said). Sounds like it will be great. [Smile]
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mr_porteiro_head
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That's right. When I heard they were doing a WW movie, I groaned inside. But when I saw that it was Whedon doing it, I said "If anybody can make that work, it's him."
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ailurophobic
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Well, Joss is responsible for the Buffy movie, too. Even if he did disown it.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I actually enjoyed that movie.

Granted, I was 15 at the time, so my standards were pretty low.

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ailurophobic
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Hah hah. Crap, man, you people make me feel young. .__.;

Wasn't able to watch it 'till I was 14 (two years ago!) because I thought it'd be gory and skeery. *big baby*

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The Pixiest
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Joss has kinda a poor record for movies. He thrives with his charactrs and likes to take a long time to develope them. There's just not enough time in a movie to do it properly.

I'm kinda worried about Serenity but I take solice in the fact he already has his characters established.

Pix

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mr_porteiro_head
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I understand what you say, Pix. I'm not expecting Serenity to be more than really fun for those who have already watched the show. I want to support it, though, on the off chance that the show might get picked up again.
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Chris Bridges
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Joss is responsible for the ideas behind the Buffy movie, but he walked away after the director kept going different directions with it.

I've seen Serenity. The characters and their relationships are established quickly and pretty well, I think. A few lines are kind of heavy handed for those of us who already know this stuff, but overall the necessary exposition flows pretty well. And soon enough you don't care, you're having too much fun watching.

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Lupus
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quote:
Originally posted by ailurophobic:
Well, Joss is responsible for the Buffy movie, too. Even if he did disown it.

not really, much of that was taken out of his hands...and a lot of dialogue was rewritten (Sutherland did a lot of his character's dialogue).

The problem with movies, is that unless you are a big name writer/director, everything is done by committee...and even then you can have problems. I think Serenity has a good shot, because the studio didn't want to mess with what sold a bunch of TV series DVDs. I think WW could be tougher, since it is the type of thing that a bunch of studio people will want to have input on.

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blacwolve
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My friends and I have been watching Buffy together this summer. We started with Season 5 in the beginning of June, and finished Season 7 this week. When it started we just wanted to watch something, and I picked up Season 5 because fugu had said it was the best season. We finished the first disc, and immediantly determined when we could watch the next one. I'm afraid those of our friends who don't like Buffy have been left alone all summer, we've been obsessed.

I do think, though, that the 7th season should have been about half a season longer. I think that almost everything that happened in that season could have benefited with a couple more episodes to ferment. Also, there were some things, like Amy's spell, that were just dropped and never fully explained.

What I've noticed from watching the Firefly commentary is that although I love Joss Whedon and think he's a great storyteller, I wouldn't have enjoyed Firefly half so much if Fox hadn't intervened and toned him down. He complains that he was forced to make Mal more lighthearted than he wanted, but I wouldn't have enjoyed Firefly with a different Mal. I think he's a great guy, with a great mind who just needs to be tempered a bit.

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Alcon
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I don't think it was just fox that intervened and toned him down... I think it was Nathan Fillion too. In fact all the actors kinda took Whedon's characters and made em a little more lighthearted and Whedon kinda eventually just went with the flow. Least that was the impression I got from listening to the commentary.
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