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Ahhh...Littlefinger "assisted" Cersei along with that too...perhaps even instagated it.
He has been pulling the strings of everyone from before the beginning of the first book. I can't wait to see Sansa turn the tables on him. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Littlefinger would make an excellent Hand I think, or power behind the throne...but real king? No, because he cannot stand alone. He must always coopt someone else to elevate.
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The man is completely devoid of anything but a desire for personal power. In this, he's easily as evil as Cersei -- and has the added "villain" factor of being competent.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Yeah, I agree with Tom. There are more obviously evil people in the realm, but Littlefinger is pretty much a sociopath.
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Well he might not be devoid of everything except ambition. He's got some kind of weird thing going for Sansa, and we don't really know what it is-but it certainly appears to be more than friendly helpfulness. There are signs of him assigning Sansa the love he had for Catelyn. Although I think he'd side with himself and his ambition over that, we can't be sure.
I'd be interested to see if Littlefinger actually knows that it was Lysa and not Catelyn who visited him that night he was plastered, too.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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You guys are weird. All the other candidates for the Iron Throne who actually want the power have killed ten times more people than Littlefinger or have done it without regard to consequences. Consider that when Littlefinger was treasurer, the kingdom prospered. People were elevated to positions, yes, based on their loyalty to Littlefinger, but also without regard to birth and with an eye to them being able to do their job.
Contrast this to those seeking power. The best of that lot might be said to be Danaerys, but she's worse than Littlefinger. She has killed far more people than he has, and will kill far more in the future, just to sit the throne. No one calls her evil. Plus, she's a barbarian who doesn't understand how to run a kingdom.
The Song of Ice and Fire series makes it very clear that either you're a player or you get run over. It makes it pretty clear that to not play the game of thrones, fight for what you want is the worse thing you can do. In this sense, the 'good' people who aren't actually seeking the throne are totally unqualified for it. That's basically all the Starks.
If Littlefinger gets the Iron Throne, what will happen? Will he kill people in fits of rage or unnecessariy? No. Will he lead the kingdome into unnecessary wars? No. Will he keep the peace? Yes. Will the kingdom prosper? Yes.
Littlefinger for king. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Wow, I feel like I've read a totally different story!
Petyr Baelish's time as treasurer wasn't time served primarily in service to the realm, it was a sop thrown to him by Hoster Tully to please Lysa Tully, whom Petyr was bedding primarily because he wanted to get in good with Catelyn Tully.
When he was treasurer, yes, the job was done, but by all accounts he did it with a borrow-and-spend philosophy to rival anything our American politicians could dream of. The system only worked as long as he, Petry Baelish, managed the enormous corruption.
He made himself absolutely indispensible. Also, Petry Baelish has killed or been accomplice to the murders of many-even the loved ones of those he claims to love. And I think it's very strange that you have Littlefinger in one column and "those seeking power" in another column. Ambition for power is the guiding star in Littlefinger's heavens. I cannot recall him once mentioning in his dialogue ever caring about power for the good of the people.
He executes power craftily because that is the way to keep power, not because of some inherent nobility.
As for Daenaerys (I can never spell that name unless I'm looking at it), who has been killed at her command, and not Khal Drogo's? Umm...slavers. Lots and lots of slavers. She is certainly no barbarian, she is literate and well-educated. She has enormous ambition as well, but for her there are lines she won't cross. She doesn't play a crooked game like Petry Baelish. She didn't murder her spouse in cold blood for power. And while she means to have power, she's making an effort to exercise it gracefully.
The Starks-with the exception of Arya-are unqualified for the Iron Throne just because of the other players on the field, I agree.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: Petyr Baelish's time as treasurer wasn't time served primarily in service to the realm, it was a sop thrown to him by Hoster Tully to please Lysa Tully, whom Petyr was bedding primarily because he wanted to get in good with Catelyn Tully.
Yeah, I never said he did it for the realm.
quote: When he was treasurer, yes, the job was done, but by all accounts he did it with a borrow-and-spend philosophy to rival anything our American politicians could dream of. The system only worked as long as he, Petry Baelish, managed the enormous corruption.
No, all the spending was done by Robert. He made the money, everyone else spent it.
quote: He made himself absolutely indispensible. Also, Petry Baelish has killed or been accomplice to the murders of many-even the loved ones of those he claims to love. And I think it's very strange that you have Littlefinger in one column and "those seeking power" in another column. Ambition for power is the guiding star in Littlefinger's heavens. I cannot recall him once mentioning in his dialogue ever caring about power for the good of the people.
Sorry I miscommunicated. I absolutely have him in the column of those seeking power.
quote: He executes power craftily because that is the way to keep power, not because of some inherent nobility.
Yep. Never said he was noble. That's why he's a winner in the realm. All your noble people are dead.
quote: As for Daenaerys (I can never spell that name unless I'm looking at it), who has been killed at her command, and not Khal Drogo's? Umm...slavers. Lots and lots of slavers. She is certainly no barbarian, she is literate and well-educated. She has enormous ambition as well, but for her there are lines she won't cross. She doesn't play a crooked game like Petry Baelish. She didn't murder her spouse in cold blood for power. And while she means to have power, she's making an effort to exercise it gracefully.
Everything she's doing, she does to rise in power and eventually rule the Kingdoms. She isn't doing it just to be nice. She has no qualms about killing those who stand in her way if it needs to be done...just like Peter.
I still stand by my assertion that Lyssa needed killing and that Littlefinger did a service to the realm by pushing her out the door. Yeah, he did it for himself, but who doesn't in that book?
One of the points the book makes clear is that things kind of are the way they are because that's the way they are. Slaves exist in the whole world, sometimes by necessity, sometimes not. If you remember, her beloved spouse was pretty active in making slaves.
While she didn't murder her spouse for power, I think it's worth asking whether maybe if she had the world wouldn't have been a better place. If you leave someone evil alive--which Drogo pretty much was--then what does that make you?
Let's compare the good deed of killing slavers to the 'bad' deed of killing Lysa. Peter kills Lysa who rules incompetently and gets others killed or lets them die because she's incompetent. What is going to be put in Lysa's place? Is it going to be someone better? Seeing as that is going to probably be Sansa Stark, I think so.
What would have been the fate of Sansa and Robert and the Vale if Lysa had been left alive? Nothing good.
The Vale is going to be better and more secure after Peter is done.
Now, contrast this with Dany and her killing of the slavers. The book makes it pretty clear that hardly anything was accomplished by deposing the slavers. What did she really accomplish? Not much.
Dany, while certainly not stupid, has no knowledge of how to rule efficiently and well, as Peter does.
It's easy to like characters once we see the world from their eyes. That's the genius of GRRM. The sad fact is that we haven't seen the world through Peter's eyes, yet. So, it's easy to think of him as being totally ambitious and without remorse. However, I think the book offers plenty of evidence that while he's ambitious, he's not without remorse, that he knows how to use power well, knows his limits, and thus would make a good king.
quote:
The Starks-with the exception of Arya-are unqualified for the Iron Throne just because of the other players on the field, I agree.
I think Sansa, in time, will be well qualified. She's learning from Peter, after all. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: So. The burning question that nobody has asked yet: Is a Brienne and Jaime hookup going to happen?
I sure hope so, even though Brienne's fate is in 'cliff hanger' mode.
While it could get tedious at times, I really enjoyed watching Cersei ever so smugly hang herself. It was like watching someone boast how great they are in Chess, preening while they expose their king with each pawn of the opponents they take. It was delightful.
I really missed Tyrion, too. I'm pretty sure I'm in love with him and, were I not already married, he would ruin me for every other man.
I'm getting extremely itchy for Bran chapters. This is the second book in a row where we've had no peep. But I am patient, Martin. I am patient.
I really like Petyr's character. It was a nice reprieve to see brief moments of his plotting in contrast with Cersei's.
This was the first book I didn't roll my eyes every time I saw a Sansa chapter approach.
I'm also curious about the significance of the 'visit' from what I took to be Jaime's mother.
While it's probably my least favorite of the four books so far, it was still an extremely good book. It's hard to follow ASOS. I did throw the book across the room twice. That's a good sign.
Tom - Call me thicky, but how would Rickon be the valonquor? The valonquor just has to be SOMEBODY's little brother, not specifically Cersei's?
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quote:The valonquor just has to be SOMEBODY's little brother, not specifically Cersei's?
The text of the prophecy, as it was quoted to us, was that she would be killed by the valonquor, which translates as "little brother." Nowhere does it specify that her little brother is going to do it.
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Unless GRRM is still going ahead with a 5-year jump in the series, it seems kinda unlikely for Rickon to be able to pull off Cersei's death. (But, hey, with GRRM, you never know... and OSC had Ender killing Stilson when Ender was, what, 5? 6?)
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quote:The valonquor just has to be SOMEBODY's little brother, not specifically Cersei's?
The text of the prophecy, as it was quoted to us, was that she would be killed by the valonquor, which translates as "little brother." Nowhere does it specify that her little brother is going to do it.
That would be cool. Of course, it would mean that Martin has to start writing about Bran and Rickon again, which I'm increasingly dubious he will do.
(When I say I'm 'patient' I actually mean I'm seething with angst. And anger. And this guy: )
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Wow, the grammar in my last post is really bad, even for me. I apologize for that and the mispelling of names.
Rickon and Shaggy wolf are another one of those huge, dangling plot threads that it will be interesting to see how Martin resolves.
As far as the whole Tyrion is the true son bit, I honestly didn't read that literally when Aunt Whatsername said it. I took it to mean that Tyrion is the smart and clever one, in the vein of Tywin, while Jaime was the guy who isn't. Also, if Jaime isn't Tywin's son, then Cersei isn't Tywin's daughter. *Tywin* raising two bastards in his own household? I just can't see it.
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Yeah, I agree. It never even occur to me that that might have been meant literally. I'm questioning my assumption now, but I'd still put money on the lot of them being Tywin's biological children.
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Re: volanquar. "Little brother" is just another word for "younger brother". Jaime is her younger brother, isn't he? That's how I read the prophecy.
Cersei is so stupid that she fixates only on the most obvious of threats. The queen that will take things from her simply must be Margary, even though there are like half a dozen other women who could eventually be a queen. Tyrion must be the "little brother", even though she's got another little brother who she's infuriated and repeatedly betrayed.
I read the wording the same way as you did, Storm. Of the three of them, Tyrion is far and away the only one who has a mindset like Tywin.
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Petry Baelish didn't do it for the realm, which is why he would be a poor king. He doesn't even care about ruling well for its own sake. He cares about ruling well enough to maintain power. That's why he would be a bad king, even at the same time he was effective.
quote:[No, all the spending was done by Robert. He made the money, everyone else spent it.
But it was Petry who came up with the "borrow" part. Rather than saying, "Look, Rob, we ain't got the money," he never said anything, and helped spend the realm into bankruptcy. And now they're in trouble with the Iron Bank as well as a host of other people, who will be putting the squeeze on them bigtime. It was the fault of Robert AND Petyr.
quote:Yep. Never said he was noble. That's why he's a winner in the realm. All your noble people are dead.
Not all of them:)
quote:Everything she's doing, she does to rise in power and eventually rule the Kingdoms. She isn't doing it just to be nice. She has no qualms about killing those who stand in her way if it needs to be done...just like Peter.
On the contrary. Yes, her first motivation is power, that motive is due to her upbringing. But she doesn't kill who gets in her way. Quite the contrary, she goes out of her way to be merciful to the defenseless when doing so costs her something.
She exhibits mercy and restraint and nobility even when it costs her something. She is willing to make sacrifices for her people. She starves with them and suffers with them and goes into exile with them, and frees slaves and gives orders to protect the helpless. Petyr on the other hand sacrifices his people for his own ambition, and would not think of sacrificing anything of his own for their sake, unless it furthered his own ambition.
quote:One of the points the book makes clear is that things kind of are the way they are because that's the way they are. Slaves exist in the whole world, sometimes by necessity, sometimes not. If you remember, her beloved spouse was pretty active in making slaves.
Yes, and Dany frees slaves where all other people say it's "necessity". Yes, her beloved spouse made many slaves, as well as widows and orphans. But she didn't really have any control over that at all. The tiny bit she did have, she used for mercy and restraint. Despite alienating her from the people and partially from her husband.
quote:While she didn't murder her spouse for power, I think it's worth asking whether maybe if she had the world wouldn't have been a better place. If you leave someone evil alive--which Drogo pretty much was--then what does that make you?
If you're going to tout Littlefinger's virtues in spite of his obvious evil-he murders people, breaks oaths, betrays people he professes to love, for ambition-then you can hardly label Khal Drogo evil as cut-and-dried as that. He was what he was raised to be, a conqueror, and under his leadership, his people thrived.
quote:Now, contrast this with Dany and her killing of the slavers. The book makes it pretty clear that hardly anything was accomplished by deposing the slavers. What did she really accomplish? Not much.
On the contrary, it accomplishes enormous things. Instantly, she makes vastly loyal followers, who would die, kill, live, and suffer for her. Who owes Petry that level of devotion? Not a soul, not even Sansa Stark.
quote:Dany, while certainly not stupid, has no knowledge of how to rule efficiently and well, as Peter does.
Well like I said, Dany is just getting started. And she even recognized her own inadequacy, and instead of marching on, she has stopped moving to govern and learn how to rule, because she knows that she cannot simply be a conqueror. And what motivated that decision? Ambition partially-she is clever enough to realize that conquerors alone do not stay in power, and she wants to stay-but also mercy. She does not want to spread suffering and misery, she wants to minimize it.
Petry doesn't seem to care. Thus far there has been no sacred thing Petry would not violate for the sake of his ambition. Granted, we haven't seen the world through his eyes yet, so the final word isn't said...but I challenge you to find one place where he exhibits anything other than naked utilitarianism. Dany would make a better ruler, because she has all of the attributes you show Petry having, as well as loyalty to those who are loyal to her. It appears to me that she is struggling to become Sacrifice to her people (a la the Assassin's Apprenctice books and its sequels, if you've read them. Or Mikal in Songbird).
I like Petry, I like reading about him, and no one can doubt that he would make an effective king. But ASoI&F isn't just a world of Machiavellian politics. It's also a world of deities and magic. In that world, eventually the kingdom will need more than pure utilitarianism. Can you see Petry sacrificing himself to save the realm from the Others, for example? I certainly cannot.
Howdy Ralphie! Totally agree about Sansa. My eyes spent most of their time rolled up when Sansa was "onscreen" before.
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Totally agree with everything you said, Rakeesh. I also didn't think of Khal Drogo as evil. Yes, a conqueror, yes a brutal leader, but that was the culture and it was the only way to survive in his world. Notice that when Dany took control she changed things. No longer did she simply take on more slaves everywhere she went. she tried to leave the conquered cities behind with a council to govern them, remember?
Dany for queen. She's not perfect, but she has wisdom and compassion, yet the ability to be ruthless when she has to. The most revealing chapter about her as a queen is the extra one, the one where she is holding court and addressing grievances - she shows her wisdom, restraint, and her sense of honor.
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quote: ...he exhibits anything other than naked utilitarianism.
I have to go to work, and enjoyed reading your response, Rakeesh, but I just wanted to point out that this probably doesn't mean what you think it means. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I don't know, Storm. It's possible I'm misunderstanding you, but your idea looks to me that: the realm would prosper under Littlefinger, thus Littlefinger would be a good king. Isn't that determining a person's worthiness or an action's morality based on its effectiveness? (If you're using the second definition as your guiding light, then I probably would agree with you.)
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I have to say that I am quite pleased with the state of my thread now .
Awesome discussion guys.
I, of course, totally agree with Rakeesh. But I love, love, love the fact that every major character in ASOIAF has his or her supporters and detractors.
I don't think anyone writes gray characters as well as Martin. In most books, Littlefinger would be undeniably "evil" and Dany undeniably "good", and so none of these debates could ever take place. But there isn't a character in the series that has been put in a box like that .
I will say that the Starks would be great kings. But NOT of the south. The Iron Throne was really never their goal. I think Robb's biggest mistake was in having Riverrun and the Tullys join his new kingdom.
If he had just kept his claim to that of the North, then he could have set up shop at Moat Cailin and declared independence (by messenger raven) to every lord in the Seven Kingdoms. That way, none of the kings in the south could have possibly contested the claim. Not until they claimed the Iron Throne anyway.
So say Robb is waiting at the biggest death-trap in the seven kingdoms. That leaves Lannister and Baratheon fighting it out down south. If Greyjoy had attacked the north, they would have easily been defeated, since Robb could just have left a portion of his army at the Moat, and dealt with the Ironborn at Seaguard with the Mallisters. The North was already marshaled for war, and the Ironborn wouldn't have had any chance with them all above the neck. I don't think the Greyjoys would have even tried, they are ambitious, not stupid.
Robb could have waited to see who won the south, and then dealt with whoever came to invade the north at the neck, where no army had ever successfully invaded from the south in 8000 years. But what of the Tullys at Riverrun? I think they could have told Stannis "If you accept the Wolf Kings claim, we will help you win the Iron Throne." If Stannis refused, they could say the exact same thing to the Lannisters.
They'd keep their hold on the river lands, and whoever won the Iron Throne would be in their debt. Why do they want to be part of the Northern Kingdom anyway?
Then if the winner of the south decided to go after the Starks anyway, the Tullys could wait in their castle for the army to march by (we've seen how difficult a castle it is to besiege) and then maybe even attack them in the rear when they get to Moat Cailin.
But alas, Robb had to accept the River-lands as part of his kingdom, out of political and familial obligations. He got trapped south of the neck, and lost everything.
Poor, poor Robb...
Anyway, if they did this plan, I believe Robb would still be King of the North. And I think he would have been a fine king. I think Ned would have been an excellent king as well.
But only of the North. They know the lands, the people, the politics, the values. And the lords of the north see the Starks as being the rightful rulers of those lands, far more than any southern king whose never even been to their lands. Except for the Boltons of course, but they would have been kept in line by a powerful king at Winterfell.
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As you said, Robb Stark had to go south out of various obligations, political and familial...but also because his people lusted for revenge. Eddard Stark was a respected and loved Lord of Winterfell, and his people were pissed. Not to mention that had he cut Riverrun off, eventually it would be Winterfell against basically the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, and the Greyjoys. He could not have won against such odds...but who's to say he would've faced such odds, with Cersei at the helm?
Then again, had Robb not ruined his chances by marrying Jeyne, perhaps Tywin would not have felt so free to humiliate and infuriate Tyrion so frequently. There would've been work for Tyrion to do aside from get crapped on by everybody whose butts he'd saved.
That's the trouble with honorable kings: sometimes they lose everything by honor. I imagine that if Rob Roy were ever based on a true story, the fop would've ambushed Rob Roy and murdered him before their duel ever happened.
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I disagree with Stormy about Petyr, but I do agree about Lysa. I definitely cheered out loud when she went flying. Good riddance.
I want to see Jon Snow be king. Yes, yes, he's bastard born. I don't care. Of all the players, I think he's got the best and most noble leadership potential. If he hooks up with Dany, I'll be ok with that (though Dany is not my favorite character--not because I disagree with what she's doing, but because I don't like reading her thought processes. They always seem very stilted and...what...uninformed, even when it's obvious from the content that they're not.).
And, I miss Tyrion. To me, he's absolutely the most interesting character (though Arya is a close, close second).
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quote:I want to see Jon Snow be king. Yes, yes, he's bastard born. I don't care.
We don't know that for sure. Lyanna and Rhaegar could have gotten married. The Targaryens did practice polygamy.
And even if R+L=J isn't true, Robb gave indication that he would legitimize Jon and make him the heir to the North before he died. Whether he did or not is another matter.
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ASoI&F is the sort of world where it doesn't really matter that he's base-born...if he wins.
Really, Martin does an exceptional job of that. All of these "royal rights" descend from the right of conquest, and you cannot ever really forget it. The Children of the Forest had rights at first, until they were conquered. Then the First Men had rights until they were conquered (by the Andals? I forget.) Then they had the right until they were conquered by Dragon-kings. Then they had the right until conquered by Barratheons. And so on and so on.
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I don't think Jon will be king at all. I think he will be the LC resposible for restoring th Night's Watch to some of it's former glory. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:A DANCE WITH DRAGONS will feature all the characters that you (and I) missed in A FEAST FOR CROWS. Jon, Tyrion, Davos, Dany, and Bran will all be present with major storylines, and toward the end of the novel Arya will appear as well, as will Asha Greyjoy. There will also be one new viewpoint character debuting and one old returning, giving me a total of nine POVs, plus the usual prologue.
The greater part of DANCE will take place at the same time as the events chronicled in FEAST... but though the two novels will run in parallel, there's nothing to prevent one parallel line from extending beyond its fellow, and the DANCE should indeed take the action beyond the end of FEAST. Just how far beyond remains to be seen, and will depend in large part on the page count when the new volume reaches the point where the last one ended. IF (and only if) I have the room, it is possible that I may drop in on a few more of the protagonists of FEAST towards the end of DANCE.
As of this writing, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS consists of some twenty-two finished chapters totalling 542 manuscript pages, plus another 100 to 150 pages of partial chapters, early drafts, scenes, and fragments. Some of that material will need to be revised, and of course much more remains to be written. My hope is to bring the book in at around 1200 to 1300 pages.
And before anyone writes me asking, yes, there is a third Dunk and Egg novella in the works as well. It's maybe three-quarters done, and sometime soon I want to find the time to finish that one too.
Anyway, that's how things stand at the end of January. I will try and update again around the beginning of April.
—George R.R. Martin, January 24, 2006
Yay for news! ... though it sounds like it's gonna be bigger than AFFC, so maybe we'll have to wait until 2007 for ADWD...
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Oh, and Littlefinger is a stinker. I suspect we will find by the end that he has had far more power over events than any of us has suspected. I imagine him being like a giant, shadowy puppetmaster hiding behind the scenes and disguised in a short, slight, wry-expressioned body.
I *hated* being in Cersei's head. Ugh. What an ugly, ugly woman. I wanted to take a shower after each of her chapters. Brienne, on the other hand, is such a beautiful woman. I would love to be in her head any day. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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The only really slow parts to me were the Dorne chapters, which I thought were nearly pointless. As far as I'm concerned, we didn't need the new viewpoint characters there, and we could just as well have learned about those events through dialogue between other, more important (and more interesting) characters in other locations.
I thought the Iron Islanders' chapters were pretty good, as were the Sansa parts (I think the Eyrie is a really cool place). The Lannister twins were both really good, even though Cersei is both vile and stupid. My favorites were Sam and (especially) Brienne. They also happen to be two of my favorite characters, but that really doesn't have that much to do with how well their chapters are written. It's just a fortunate coincidence.
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Since ADWD runs about parallel with AFFC, I would guess that not that much earth-shattering happens, as if it did, the characters in AFFC would have heard about it. I note the singular lack of any mention of anything really happening in the North after the introductory chapter of sending Aemon off, and nothing about Daenarys beyond vague rumors of dragons flying around. Certainly nothing like she was getting close to Westeros.
So, I'm thinking that the resolution to the series is not yet in sight. At the rate Martin is going, I'll be an old man before the freaking thing is done.
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quote:Since ADWD runs about parallel with AFFC, I would guess that not that much earth-shattering happens, as if it did, the characters in AFFC would have heard about it.
On the other hand, I have been fascinated at the ideas presented in this thread of the possible conniving and plotting going on amongst the Tyrells. Who knows what sorts of things might be revealed in ADWD that would shed stunning light on the events of AFFC? What if Tyrion were in the background somewhere pulling the strings! Oh my, but that would be fun. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Didn't they mention he had been executed in AFFC?
Yes they did, but I doubt it actually happened. The Manderly family at White Harbor were the ones who supposedly executed him (if I remember correctly), but I don't believe it for a second.
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I expect that Varys has made his way to Dany's camp, wouldn't you expect?
quote:Since ADWD runs about parallel with AFFC, I would guess that not that much earth-shattering happens, as if it did, the characters in AFFC would have heard about it.
Not necessarily. The wall is a long way away from most of the action in AFFC, and it's possible that all sorts of stuff is happening with the wights and the others that people in the south aren't aware of.
Also, incredibly important stuff could be going on with Bran without it reaching the ears of any of the characters in AFFC.
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That's true. It's still not entirely clear to me approximately how much time passed in AFFC, anyways. Surely no more than a few months, at most.
Varys to Dany's camp, eh? It's possible, but I'm not sure. I kind of have Varys pegged as either a Faceless Man, or someone actively in the employ of some other faction in the Free Cities. That is, I think it was Varys and that Free Cities merchant whose name escapes me that Arya saw in the tunnels conversing when she was running from the palace guard.
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Oh, that was definitely Varys, I agree. But I think he was engineering things to get the Targaryens back on the throne. Now that Tyrion has made it impossible for him to stay in King's Landing in a position from which he can pull strings, I expect he's going to Dany's side. If not that I expect he'll be working from elsewhere to advance her cause.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: ... and that Free Cities merchant whose name escapes me that Arya saw in the tunnels conversing when she was running from the palace guard.
Magister Illyrio, just to clear that up.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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On the other hand, Storm, what does happen with Dany takes a long time to make it to Westeros, and Cersei is inclined to ignore all of it anyway. It's only in this book that we start hearing rumors of dragons in Westeros, after all, and that's just sailor-talk, despite being true.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I am curious why someone like Illyrio(thanks, Carrie) and Varys want the Targaryens back on the throne. I'm not saying that it can't be, I'm just curious why anyone in the Free Cities would really care or favor the Targaryens over anyone else.
Also, Noemon, what evidence do you have for this? The conversation I recall in the tunnels between Illyrio and Varys went something to the effect that one party needed more time for his plans to come to fruition, but I don't recall anything in particular about the Targaryens. I guess I find it hard to believe that the plan was to marry Dany off to Kal Drogo, and then Viserys was to come back and reclaim the Targaryen bloodline.... Again, not to say this isn't possible, but just that it doesn't really have the ring of truth to it.
Rakeesh, possibly. Time is kind of muddied in the books, as I mentioned. I don't think more than...a year, year and a half has really passed since Robert and Cersei first came up to Winterfell....
Kind of mind boggline, isn't it? It is to me. Looking at the publication dates of the books, it's almost ten years now since AGoT was published in this world. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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You know, I honestly can't tell you now how I arrived at that hypothesis (and I recognize that I could easily be wrong). Next time I reread the series I'll tell you though.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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No worries. Like I said, it's something that I could see happening. I'm just not clear on why it would.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I'm just scratching my head trying to remember what all you are talking about. I have trouble remembering the details from the book I am currently reading, much less the details from past books. : /
I will definitely be reading the series all again when the books are finished. Anyone know a good place to get caught up on all the little facts that I ought to remember?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Parts are currently under construction, but is the pre-eminent online resource for Fire and Ice lore - has a concordance, history, timelines, and the like.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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