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Author Topic: A Feast For Crows *SPOILERS*
His Savageness
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One thing I was wondering was if we ever really knew that Storm's End had fallen, or even that Loras was wounded or at least as wounded as the Tyrell's claimed. Since we never actually saw those events happen, it almost seems like the Tyrell's could be inventing any story. What are they up to...
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beverly
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Wow, thanks, Carrie! Cliffnotes is *exactly* what I was needing. [Smile]
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Dr Strangelove
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Woohooo! To everyone who recommended this series to me ... [Group Hug]

I read the books rather fast, so they all kind of blurred together, but I'll attempt to summarize my opinions and etc.

I was really sad that Tyrion didn't get barely any mention in AFFC. I'm really interested in him, and I figured him and Varys would at least partially intertwine, and I was interested in what happened to Varys after his web (apparently) came crashing down.

I missed Jon also. Him and Tyrion, along with Arya, were/are my favorite characters. Honestly, the only reason I read AFFC so fast was because I wanted more stuff about Arya. For some reason her story really drew me. Just for clarification, is she studying to be a Faceless Man?

Sam's chapters were cool, but pretty much only because of Aemon. I reaallllyyy wanna know more about Rhaegar. The whole thing (can't remember which book it was in) about him just 'deciding' to be a knight ... and the whole vision Dany had in Quarth or whatever ... it's all somewhat blurry but I just know that's a huge part of the story.

I didn't consider the Hound not being dead, but I suppose that's a real possibility. I don't think Brienne is done. I don't quite know what's gonna happen with her, but there's no way she's finished as a character.

Cersei ... the only chapter I enjoyed of hers was the last one. It seemed like every other time GRRM introduced a new character, we saw that world through their eyes and actually started to like them. Cersei was just detestable all the way.

Littlefinger ... doesn't he remind you of Achilles (In the Shadow series)? He's no good. One death that I don't think was attributed to him in this thread was Jon Arryn's. He told Lysa to poison him. I'll be very interested to see how all that works out. I don't think he'll win this 'game of thrones', but I think he can definately throw some wrenches into it.

And Dorne ... I was somewhat bored by that storyline until the last chapter where it showed that Doran was not a wimp, simply a very patient enemy. Arianne (sp?) was betrothed to Viserys ... that was an interested revelation. I wonder if Viserys knew? And yes, the sand snake story line will be an interesting one to be sure.

Btw, I wish Sansa's chapters had remained under the name of Sansa instead of Alayne. And Arya under Arya. Etcetera. Etcetera

Ah ... it's all very blurry and very incomplete. I can't wait for the rest of the books to be out! Any clue on a release date?

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Juxtapose
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Dr Strangelove,

I'd say the differene between Littlefinger and Achilles is control. Whereas Achilles is sometimes driven to kill because of internal motivations, Petyr does it within a much broader perspective. When betrayed Ned, you knew he had weighed both options, considered consequences in the long run, and made his decision. So, despite the many their many similarities, that one difference distinguishes them very strongly in my mind.

I agree about Sam's chapters. They were interesting, though not as good as the chapters dealing with Sam's trudge back to the Wall (in SoS?). But that not might be fair, because I consider those the best chapters in the series.

Amen to wanting to know more about Rhaegar.

One of the things that interested me most about AFFC was how much I came to like Jaime. We've got a true redemption going on there. Here's to Jaime and Brienne!

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Dr Strangelove
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Thats true, about Achilles and Littlefinger.

I sort of had a feeling from the beginning that if ever we got the chance to know Jaime, we'd end up sympathizing with him.

I really don't quite understand the logic Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn of hanging Brienne. She never broke her oath, at least not that I was aware of. Yes, she hadn't fulfilled it, but she was trying. Jaime too. He was trying to fulfill his oath. Where does she get that they both broke their oaths? I understand she's dead and all, but it just seemed a bit odd to me.

Also, what was up with Thoros' little speech about how they started out honourable and now they're ...?

I'm sorry, I know most of you read this months ago and it isn't fresh in your minds. Apologies for being so late on the bandwagon.

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beverly
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quote:
I really don't quite understand the logic Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn of hanging Brienne. She never broke her oath, at least not that I was aware of. Yes, she hadn't fulfilled it, but she was trying. Jaime too. He was trying to fulfill his oath. Where does she get that they both broke their oaths? I understand she's dead and all, but it just seemed a bit odd to me.
Maybe that's why they call her Stoneheart. [Wink]
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Dr Strangelove
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[Razz]

Catelyn's chapters were possibly my absolute least favorite throughout all of the books. I was quite happy when she died. And then she comes back to life. psh.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Where does she get that they both broke their oaths?
She doesn't believe them. She believes that Jaime helped plan the Red Wedding.
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Noemon
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I was pretty excited to see what undead-Catelyn's role was, but I was disappointed to discover that Beric had given up his un-life to bring her back; he was among my favorite characters.
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Kwea
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I think the Free Cities would want Danys in power because she might at least pay her debts. Robert/Cersi didn't, and now they are pissed.

Also, she will have SOME sort of popular support and backing, look at how many people fought for her line against Robert. Even if the Free Cities don't have any goodwill at all towards Danys at all the fact is she will cause a TON of problems for the Lannisters, and it was their descendant that refused to pay their debts off. [Big Grin]


I doubt Varys will make it toward Danys...he was the one who suggested killing her, and arranged for the attempt on her life to happen, resulting in both the death of Kal Drago and her baby. [Frown]


Kwea

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Juxtapose
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quote:
I really don't quite understand the logic Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn of hanging Brienne.
My understanding of this wasn't so much a logic as a lack thereof. I just kind of inferred she snapped, and wants to kill just about everybody involved in her past life. And everyone involved with them. So clearly Pod the young boy had to go too...

quote:
I doubt Varys will make it toward Danys...he was the one who suggested killing her, and arranged for the attempt on her life to happen, resulting in both the death of Kal Drago and her baby.
Ahh, but Dany doesn't know that now does she? [Wink]

About popular support for her in Westeros though, I agree with you. There was that scene where some peasant told a main character (I think it was Brienne?), "We're good Dragon men," or something along those lines. I definitely read it has hinting to a broader support, especially compared with how utterly crappy things have been for the common man lately with the Game of Thrones being played so openly and violently.

EDIT - By the way, Dr Strangelove, towerofthehand.com says Martin is aiming for a '06 release of ADwD

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Dr Strangelove
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Varys arranged for Drogo and the baby's death? I thought that was just as a result of Drogo getting wounded and then the maegi more or less killing him. I didn't think Varys had anything to do with that. [Dont Know]
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Juxtapose
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Arranged for an unsuccessful attempt with the merchant and poisoned wine. And the manticore, I believe.

But the actual deaths were the maegi

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Dr Strangelove
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Righht. He tried to kill her, but failed. That was his plan, if I remember. Hire someone incompetent so she didn't actually get killed, but did get pretty ticked off.
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Nikisknight
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Does anyone else hope that Sansa and Tyrion stay married? I think he could have liked her, if she softened up to him being a Lannister.

I also thought that the Dorne parts werre a distraction, until the last page there where the king told his daughter about his plots. Another schemer to keep an eye on.

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
Righht. He tried to kill her, but failed. That was his plan, if I remember. Hire someone incompetent so she didn't actually get killed, but did get pretty ticked off.

Exactly; that's my take on it as well.
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Juxtapose
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quote:
Does anyone else hope that Sansa and Tyrion stay married? I think he could have liked her, if she softened up to him being a Lannister.
For a while, I hoped that might turn out to be the case. It seems really unfeasible the way things are now though. Something inside Tyrion really seemed to snap the last time we saw him. I'm not sure how it'll be bourne out in ADwD, but it's hard to imagine him being the same person now.

And there's no telling what Sansa will become under Littlefinger's tutelage, especially given the things she's witnessed. She's maintained quite a bit of compassion, as shown in her dealing with Robert (the whiny kid, not the dead King). But we shouldn't forget that she is capable of sacrificing people close to her to get what she wants, as shown by her lying about Nymeria.

There was really nothing between Tyrion and Sansa besides some unidirectional lust and a bit of shared pity anyway. The situation would have had to be monumentally different for something real to have come of it.

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
Righht. He tried to kill her, but failed. That was his plan, if I remember. Hire someone incompetent so she didn't actually get killed, but did get pretty ticked off.

Exactly; that's my take on it as well.
Right...but Varys did have a contact....Mormont, who is by Danys side.

And Sir Barristen the Bold, who was a Kingsguard, and who disliked Varys.


Plus, she isn't stupid.


[Big Grin]

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plaid
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A bit of an update by GRRM, dated March 28th:

quote:
With no more travel on my immediate horizons (there's Marcon in Ohio over Memorial Day, and then nothing until the summer), I have finally been able to settle down and get back into A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. That's where most of my time and energy has gone of late. For the last week or so I have been back at the Wall with Jon Snow and the men of the Night's Watch. Jon, I think, will be one of the main beneficiaries of my splitting A FEAST FOR CROWS in two. I will have more room to deal with Jon and Stannis and the wildlings and the rest, which will allow me to flesh out their storylines more and bring them to a better resolution... but it's more than that. Although I had "completed" something on the order of five Jon chapters before deciding to divide the book, I was never really happy with them, and rereading them now has reinforced my feelings. They need to be much stronger, and I believe I see how to do that now. Sometimes putting things on the back burner can work wonders. That where the muse lives (or the moose, as Parris sometimes calls her).

Oh, and I've also come up with a new title for the seventh (and final, I hope, I hope, I hope) volume of the series -- A DREAM OF SPRING. I like the sound of that a lot better than A TIME FOR WOLVES, which has been my working title for book seven up to now, and I also think it gives a better sense of the book that I want to write. So -- A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, then THE WINDS OF WINTER, then A DREAM OF SPRING. Shouldn't take me long (hah).


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prolixshore
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I just hope we get A Dance With Dragons by 2007. That would seem an excellent timetable to me. Thanks for the update.

--ApostleRadio

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Carrie
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Jon! Woo! *bounces*
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TomDavidson
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Hm. Assuming he had written, as he claimed, around 11 chapters of Dance with Dragons already (before splitting the book), the fact that he's going to rewrite five of them is probably not going to do the timeframe any favors.
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Noemon
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Probably so, but I'd much rather have a better book than an earlier one. As long as he finishes the series before dying, I'm willing to wait.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
As long as he finishes the series before dying, I'm willing to wait.

Shh! Don't give him any ideas! [Wink]
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Noemon
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Is there an estimted date for the release of the audio book of A Feast for Crows? I just did a little poking around and didn't see one, but I could easily have missed it.
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plaid
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I'm pretty sure that AFFC is already out on audio -- I remember reading some kvetching by audiophiles that the narrator for it isn't as good as Roy Dotrice, who did the first 3 books.
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Noemon
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Looks like you're right. Thanks plaid!
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plaid
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New sample chapter up at GRRM's website! and... it's a Tyrion chapter!! [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

linkity link

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Carrie
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That certainly made me go back and read the chapter in AFFC again.
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Lalo
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I'm halfway through right now, and very carefully not reading any posts in this thread. I think I have most of the secrets in the first three books riddled out, so I wasn't expecting to be surprised by any plot twists in AFfC -- but in terms of simple quality, this book is not living up to its predecessors. So far, anyway.

I'm bumping this so I can come back to it later and read other people's opinions. I wonder if anyone else thinks Martin's underperforming, at least relative to his past three marvels?

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Zalmoxis
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I had the same reaction half-way through, Lalo. But after I finished and esp. several weeks afterwards as I let the book seep in and meld with the other books, it became a lot more satisfying.
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Kwea
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I loved that new Tyrion chapter, btw. [Big Grin]
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Noemon
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Lalo, I definitely find it to be the weakest of the series so far. It's a pretty common opinion of it, I believe.
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Rakeesh
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While I still feel I like it least of the four so far, I generally attribute that to the fact that it doesn't deal with my favorite characters very much at all-Tyrion, Arya, Jon Snow.
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Kwea
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I still liked it a lot, and thought it was great, but the other books were even better.
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plaid
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The main weakness of the book is that GRRM originally meant for there to be a 5-year jump in the story, and the material in AFFC was meant to be backstory that would be worked into the next book. He says that approach just didn't work for him... so AFFC as he wrote it ended up writing being (mostly) a tidying up of the loose ends after A Storm of Swords, and a setup for the rest of the series. There's just not as much going on in this book as in the first three.

(Hopefully once the series is done, AFFC will have a better "feel" to it, for being the book that gives one a chance to catch one's breath before the next series of catastrophes...)

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His Savageness
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Yeah, I agree with the consensus that AFFC wasn't as good as the rest of the series. Of course, ASOS was probably my favorite book so far, and the battle at the Wall at the end of ASOS is one of my favorite battles in all of bookdom, so AFFC had a lot to live up to.
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Lalo
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Initial reaction: What?!

After consideration: What?!?!

One of my biggest peeves was how casually he killed off Sandor Clegane. I thought he might be the monk who claimed to have buried the Hound, but Clegane isn't that well-spoken -- if he's changed that radically, he's ruined. The man was the best character Martin had, he deserved a better death than a second-hand account of his burial.

Argh. I know I'm missing a ton, but at least I finally got this monkey off my back. I'm going back through it soon.

Man. I'm going to re-read this, but, man. Other books left me stunned, this one left me angry. I hope to god this epic won't become another disappointment.

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Rakeesh
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Who says Sandor Clegane is dead?
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Lalo
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quote:
Originally posted by plaid:
Cersei pregnant? Hmm, hadn't thought about that, I'd ntocied maybe one reference to Cersei complaining about tight dresses and taken it as more of her worrying about getting old and losing her beauty.

Cersei's got to survive (at least for now) -- doesn't the prophesy say that she'll see all of her children die?

Did anyone notice any possible references to Rickon? I don't have any of the GRRM books handy right now, but where was it that Rickon and Osha were headed off to -- was it the Menderly family?

Also: did any of the scenes in AFFC match the visions that Dany had in the weird house in, um, Qorth (hope I'm getting that right) back in the second book?

Cersei'll have only three children, according to the maegi. It could be stillborn, I guess, but that'd be stretching the rules.

I'm having fun counting down Robert's bastards. Sixteen, right? And they're everywhere, you'd think he populated half of Westeros himself.

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Lalo
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Huh. Does nobody but me care about the onion knight? I almost believe Manderly killed him, since he wasn't important enough to lie about in the first place -- and I kinda liked Davos Seaworth. Not as much as the Hound, but still.

It doesn't seem like Martin to kill off a character without even introducing him in the book, so I'm suspicious -- but it's hard to see him weaseling out of this report. Unless Cersei was lied to; Rickon and Osha are at White Harbor, aren't they? And if Stannis has made common cause with Jon Snow, and if Manderly's still loyal to the Starks, maybe Rickon was able to win him back to the North and inspire him to play games with Cersei. I've met Martin, and I can see why he'd want to make a fat man more than the usual quivering caricature.

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Rakeesh
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I view it as very unlikely Davos is dead, when viewed against the possibility Cersei-an utterly inept and stupid ruler if there ever was one-was lied to be any advisor or 'ally'.
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Lalo
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:
I want to see Jon Snow be king. Yes, yes, he's bastard born. I don't care.
We don't know that for sure. Lyanna and Rhaegar could have gotten married. The Targaryens did practice polygamy.

And even if R+L=J isn't true, Robb gave indication that he would legitimize Jon and make him the heir to the North before he died. Whether he did or not is another matter.

No, Robb did make Jon his heir. Go back through ASOS, it's a Catelyn chapter -- she was upset about Jon being legitimized, and worrying how Jon's children might contend with Robb's own for future inheritance. Robb dismissed her, and had his lords bear witness to his will to leave the North to Jon.

It's part of what makes Jon's sacrifice of Stannis' offer of Winterfell so ironic. He gave up one castle to be Lord Commander, and soon he may need to decide to give up the kingdom.

Which he won't, because he ends up with Dany -- it's in the title. Ice and fire: Snow and Targaryen.

I keep wondering how Stannis will die... He's a good guy, in truth -- the more I read of him, the more I pity him. He doesn't even seem aware that he's killed his brother. Martin had better give him a hero's death.

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Rakeesh
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What he seems really unaware of is how much a pawn he is to someone other than the Lord of the Light. That's hoow I read his almost-hero's sword.
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plaid
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A tidbit from GRRM's website =

quote:
yes, I am still working on A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, and yes, I still hope to deliver it this fall, or by the end of the year at the latest.
Exxxxcellent.
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Dan_Frank
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This is such a good thread. Wow. Bumping based on an exchange in "In Awe of a Storm of Swords"

Xavier, I really don't have a whole lot of argument. I agree that this book was more... setup, than the other three. Less was resolved. But I also feel that there was a lot more setup than the other books. And, I don't think this is a bad thing. It didn't bother me. Important things were still happening, they just weren't important resolutions.

Yes, there was no Tyrion/Jon/Dany etc. But there was Jaime, who is fast approaching Tyrion as an intelligent, funny character. There was Brienne, who is just as honorable and decent as a Stark. There was Victarion and Aeron and Arys and Arianne and Hotah and all of their machinations, which were very exciting (I think you agree with me on that one). And yes, Cersei, who is totally repugnant. But some of the most exciting things were happening in her chapters! The Faith re-arming, a renegade fleet, Zombor; not to mention the setup for the potential dethroning of both the Lannister and Tyrell kings.

I loved Brienne's chapters. I loved getting a view of the smaller side of things, seeing some of the firsthand effects of the War of Five Kings. However inconsequential it may be in the long run, I loved seeing a few more of the worst soldiers in the war getting their comeuppance. I loved seeing that Sandor is still alive, and possibly even beginning to gain a measure of peace. As much as I love him as the tortured irreverent bastard he was in the first three books, I don't begrudge him some measure of contentment or a possible change of heart.

But not much of this really disputes what you said. I agree withy our main premise of "Not enough was resolved", but I disagree that it's a big enough flaw to diminish the book.

If a book's most serious flaws basically revolve around it only being ridiculously long, and not really really ridiculously long (which it would need to be to have proper climaxes and/or show more characters), it doesn't seem like much of a flaw.

But, again, that's because I loved reading all the random things we DID see. I wouldn't trade them, even for climactic events. ASOIAF is totally unlike WOT in that regard, for me anyway. No matter how long it may drag on, it all feels so much more authentic and meaningful.

You know, I felt incredible sadness when Nimble Dick was killed. What other author could make a character so loveable in such a short span of time?

Edit: That last bit was just me marveling to myself, not really meant as an argument of anything.

[ September 06, 2007, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Dan_Frank ]

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Xavier
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quote:
This is such a good thread. Wow. Bumping based on an exchange in "In Awe of a Storm of Swords"
You should also see this one. For more theories, discussion, and ramblings.

[Edit: Nevermind, I see you've already posted on that thread!]

quote:
not to mention the setup for the potential dethroning of both the Lannister and Tyrell kings.

Yeah, the whole crux of my disappointment is that every plot in the book was mere setup. I know some really cool and important things are going to happen, but I knew that before AFFC came out, and here we are again waiting multiple years to see it still.

quote:
If a book's most serious flaws basically revolve around it only being ridiculously long, and not really really ridiculously long (which it would need to be to have proper climaxes and/or show more characters), it doesn't seem like much of a flaw.
The first novel is the shortest in the series so far, and accomplishes exponentially more plot development. The key difference is that every single sentence of every single page in AGOT is valuable to the story. The story is incredibly tight. For AFFC, entire chapters can be discarded with very little lost. I'm of the opinion that Brienne's entire plotline can be discarded without much loss. I think Martin has become rather indulgent of his characters and his story, which weakens the narrative overall. The fact that the book is so ungodly long, with so very little resolved, is why people like Porter fear he's going to pull a Robert Jordan.

(Of course, in my estimation of the two writers, I don't think Jordan is worthy of writing the blurb on the back of a Martin book.)

The fact that he is struggling so mightily with a book that was supposed to be half done before we ever even got our hands on AFFC makes me rather worried. I went into AFFC expecting a masterpiece, and am trying to manage my expectations better this time around.

I think the first three books of the series are some of the finest pieces of literature ever published (I really do), so I say that with a big frown.

Edit:

Now that some time has passed, and ADWD still has no light at the end of the tunnel, I sort of wish Martin had waited.

I think the books would have been far better sent off to the editor as one humongous manuscript, and then edited with a hacksaw. I think if you put ADWD and AFFC together, and then edit it down by half, you'd probably get another masterpiece.

[ September 06, 2007, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]

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Dan_Frank
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I hate to admit it, but you're probably right.

I just... I honestly am not sure if I care whether or not it's a masterpiece. I just love everything in the story too much. I LIKE reading about the supposed noble ancestry of the Crabbs. I LIKE reading about the Knight of the Blood-Red Chicken whose blade dripped in gore. I LIKE reading about Shagwell and Rorge getting their just desserts. It doesn't bother me that these things have no bearing on the plot. I could probably read a novella entitled "A Day In The Life of Potbellied Pate, a farmer from the Reach" and be absolutely enthralled.

But I acknowledge that this is just because he's completely and utterly hooked me. From a more objective standpoint, the book probably would have benefited from some trimming.

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Xavier
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Hey man, don't let me bring down your enjoyment of the book!

I wish I felt the same way you do. While I do enjoy those things, I'd probably enjoy them far more if they weren't slowing down a great epic story.

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Nathan2006
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I never saw this thread when it first came out, for it was before my time... I just have to say this.

Why do all these lucky people get to live in New Mexico?

There's like, a whole slew of fantasy writers there, and some of them, even as accomplished as GRRM, workshop their stuff!!! I'm so jealous. I would never actually write anything, but I'd sit in the group like an eager puppy, waiting for new sample chapter from one of them, should I live there (Or just visit)... Although, Jane Lindskold says she doesn't workshop her stuff... That's kind of a bummer.

Wow. I'm getting bummed out over an imaginary visit to New Mexico. That's sad.

[/rambling]

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