quote:Tres, you're just being contrary again, for the fun of it.
Being contrary is not often all that fun. I'm being contrary on this issue because I dislike it when new and/or young people with perfectly valid things to say are driven away from the forum because they are attacked over their grammar. And because I dislike it, in general, when people capable of great substance are rejected over issues of detail.
quote:Your assertion is that it ALWAYS worth the effort, and that I am wrong to quit reading a post I don't understand. That I should struggle with until I master each person's idiosyncratic form of communication. And that the burden is all on me to make their meaning shine through.
No, my assertion is that it is often worth the effort, that I don't think it is that much effort, and that the burden is partly on the reader and partly on the author to make communication work (rather than all on the author). Even so, if you don't want to make that effort, I don't have a problem if you skip over that post or that thread. That's your call. I don't even have a problem if you politely mention the error. I just have a problem if you decide attack the author for their bad grammar, and distract the thread from whatever the author intended it to be about. That frustrates the author (who could very well leave over that if they are new) as well as those of us who do think it is worth the effort and are trying to take part in the thread.
It has the original codification of Davidson's Law:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Anyone who posts to correct the grammar of someone else is required to have at least error in the body of his or her own post.
posted
Might I suggest the Google Toolbar, at least for spelling? It's quite easy to use and often clears up some..embarrassing spelling mistakes. Posts: 1215 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
We are guests in Mr. Card's living room. Mr. Card hates when his guests mess up the room with commas strewn about willy-nilly and odd spellings and grammatical constructions splattered all over the walls.
I'm guessing that he saves that sort of mayhem for the bedroom, and only when he is feeling particularly naughty.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I'd like to say something here, and because this is the Internet I'm sure it will be taken wrong. Why not? Every other post I make is, I'm sure this won't be the exception. Anyway.
On the OSC side of the forum, someone posted a quite lovely anecdote of how he's bought and given away literally dozens of copies of Ender's Game. Then one day he sees a stranger reading one and notices it is a copy he bought.
Now, that's a cool story. But his original post was incoherent, with almost all punctuation missing, whole words missing, incomplete thoughts, and a plethora of other errors.
The first sentence in his post was that he felt OSC had changed him to an 'A' student.
I felt almost nauseated trying to read through the mess to get to the meat of what he said. So I posted, gently I thought, that he might want to proofread his post because it didn't look like the work of an 'A' student. I also said I thought what he had to say was great.
I was jumped on, big time. One person said he'd spill coffee on my shoes and pee on my car if he knew where I lived. Lots of people said they agreed with him and I was a horribly stuck up, arrogant person, with no respect for the feelings of others.
What?
I later noticed the original poster said his right arm was injured and he was on medication at the time of his post. So I replied that I was sorry about his arm and hoped it got better. (In future, the poster said, he wouldn't post while on drugs. Sounds like a good idea to me.)
I was still jumped on.
Episodes like that make me question the wisdom of belonging to Hatrack, which is sad because I really respect OSC, and I wanted to stay.
My grammar isn't perfect either. I've never said it was. But I hope that my sentences are usually readable, and I had no idea that suggesting to someone else that they take the time to make sure their posts make sense, at least, was inappropriate.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Yes, with a very different population. I'll see regulars on this side over there sometimes, but they feel more like parents stopping by a children's party occassionally to keep order or to answer a few questions.
Not that they're all kids over there...
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: I am so sick, of seeing people complaining and whining about spelling errors and mistakes, and wasting perfectly good posts.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
oh, wait.
d00d, ur post was teh 733t. u r0x0r !!111111oneoneone111!!!
Posts: 80 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
In R. Ann's initial post, I probably would have taken out the first sentence. Otherwise it was fine. What was not necessary was the other people agreeing with how bad his grammar was. It only takes one person to point out the mistake. Anything beyond that (like two additional posts made immediately afterward saying the same thing) is quite unnecessary. Criticism isn't always easy to take. Beating it to death with a condescending tone doesn't make it easier.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
See that's just it. There was no condescending tone. I was really trying to be polite. I was quite shocked to see the reactions the next time I signed on.
In person I have a lot of friends and no enemies. I'm good at communicating. Online, no matter how clearly I try to convey something, people read into it various emotions that never even occurred to me.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:It only takes one person to point out the mistake. Anything beyond that (like two additional posts made immediately afterward saying the same thing) is quite unnecessary. Criticism isn't always easy to take. Beating it to death with a condescending tone doesn't make it easier.
And yet, it was okay for twenty people to harangue me for my error? Smacks of a double standard to me.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
The whole point is that a few errors are ok; even lots of errors are ok. But when it becomes so difficult to read that the meaning is lost, there is a problem. Why shouldn't that problem be addressed in a respectful manner without someone being called arrogant?
R.Ann, I don't think you were out of line at all.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:See that's just it. There was no condescending tone. I was really trying to be polite. I was quite shocked to see the reactions the next time I signed on.
I didn't mean to imply that you had the condescending tone. Rather, I was referring to some of the other statements made by others. I think the only reason it turned into a big argument is because other people felt they needed to add more to what you had already said.
quote:And yet, it was okay for twenty people to harangue me for my error?
No, that is not okay, just as it was not okay for several people to emphasize his poor grammar before he even had a chance to correct or defend himself after your post.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:quote: Being contrary is not often all that fun. I'm being contrary on this issue because I dislike it when new and/or young people with perfectly valid things to say are driven away from the forum because they are attacked over their grammar. And because I dislike it, in general, when people capable of great substance are rejected over issues of detail.
Reticulum is not being driven away. Also, since I responded in a thread ABOUT grammar, I think the point is that this IS the substance of the discussion...here.
quote: No, my assertion is that it is often worth the effort, that I don't think it is that much effort, and that the burden is partly on the reader and partly on the author to make communication work (rather than all on the author). Even so, if you don't want to make that effort, I don't have a problem if you skip over that post or that thread. That's your call. I don't even have a problem if you politely mention the error. I just have a problem if you decide attack the author for their bad grammar, and distract the thread from whatever the author intended it to be about. That frustrates the author (who could very well leave over that if they are new) as well as those of us who do think it is worth the effort and are trying to take part in the thread.
Please show me where I have attacked the author, distracted this (or any) thread from what the author intended it to be about, or how talking about grammar in a thread specifically about grammar has detracted from your enjoyment of it.
Since you posted this on page 2:
quote:Rejecting an otherwise excellent post because of grammar errors is a ridiculously shallow way to judge someone's writing. It falls right along with judging people by their choice of shoes or hairstyle, not hiring someone because you don't like their handshake, or refusing to read a book just because it has a spaceship on the cover. Would you spit on a Picasso because you don't like the frame around it? I hope not, but why is making fun of a post that includes grammatical errors any better?
It is good to use good grammar because you can't escape having to deal with people who judge by trivial things like grammar, hairstyle, and handshaking ability, but that's absolutely no excuse to fall to their level, and use the same poor judgement yourself. You hurt yourself if you do so, because it makes it quite difficult to see why unpolished diamonds are better than error-free junk.
And it seemed to directly address my central point so soon after I made it, I've been laboring under the assumption that you felt I was doing the things you say are wrong-headed.
Something tells me now that you may have been speaking in a more generalized fashion, and perhaps had incidents from other threads in mind when you adopted the tone that you did.
Is that the case? Maybe you'd care to present a few specific examples of where you felt a person was deliberately dismissed over grammar in an "otherwise excellent" post.
I'd like to understand what your operating definition of "ridiculously shallow" behavior is in this regard.
Personally, I think you're being vague, over-generalizing, and taking the aggressively contrary position for no good reason. Perhaps to see just how far you can carry the argument on nothing but rhetorical skill...
I don't know what to make of you, sometimes, but you sure adopted a rather accusatory tactic here and I, for one, want to see you back it up with specifics.
Especially if you are aiming even a piece of that off-hand criticism at me.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Tresopax, no one here is asking for people to write each post like a formal essay. I think the problem is that people are using the term "grammar" rather imprecisely. You seem to be thinking of a set of fussy little rules that you have to observe in order to impress someone, while others seem to be talking about things more fundamental to interpreting meaning, like spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure.
And even on those subjects, I think the overwhelming majority of Hatrackers cut people a lot of slack. The problem I see pointed out the most is the lack of paragraph breaks, which can greatly impair readability. No one is asking anyone else to bust out The Chicago Manual of Style and copy edit everything they right; they're just asking for basic readability.
Edit: Oops. There was another page I hadn't read yet.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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In my opinion, R. Ann, you probably should have been.
Wow, Tom. I have seen insulting condescension from you before, but this may be a new low.
I think R. Ann's post in that thread was completely reasonable and polite. (And I apologize for not having posted to say so.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Sorry, Bob... I didn't have anything you did specificially in mind. I was referring to:
"people complaining and whining about spelling errors and mistakes, and wasting perfectly good posts. People will deviate from perfectly great topics, and take down perfectly good points, by simply saying: 'You have bad grammar', or 'Learn punctuation.'"
That's the general case the Reticulum laid out in his first post, and I've seen many situations like that on Hatrack. I was refering to those cases in general, and not to whatever specifically Reticulum did to make people complain about him.
This thread, being discussed above, is one instance. In it a student who has only posted 65 times offers a error-filled opening post in which he describes how he loved EG and a story about how he gave away copies of the book to people. Here are two comments from that thread:
quote:Your spelling, grammar and typing skills don't match those of an A student.
quote:
Sorry, Locke, I got about a third of the way through your post and gave up.
I think both of these are fairly insulting - especially the laughing smiley. In fact, three out of the first four responses are about his grammar, rather than the substance of his post. This transforms the thread into an argument about grammar rather than about the story the author intended to convey. If I were a relatively new Hatracker, getting a response like that to what was intended as a very friendly thread, I would think twice about coming back.
He posts again in this thread, in which he mentioned editing a chapter of a book, to which he gets one congrats and one response like this:
quote:Gyah. I do hope you weren't editing it for actual grammar and spelling.
This is basically just a one-liner attack. Not surprisingly, he responds:
quote:this board used to be fun to come to lol...
There's also this thread where you attempted to make a joke about a new poster's grammar, but ended up offending cheiros do ender when more people piled on his friend to complain about grammar, rather than answer the question he gave. Once again, I think getting three or four responses like that after your very first post would give a very bad impression of the forum.
One more instance... In this thread Geekazoid tries to honestly sum up his thoughts on religion, and instead is met only with this response:
quote:Gyah. If you're going to be on the right side of the argument, would you please clean up your spelling? You're making atheists look bad.
I've seen this sort of thing numerous times. Occassionally it will be a polite comment. Often, however, it is a joke at the author's expense - sometimes repeated by two, three, four, or more other Hatrackers. Often it distracts the whole thread from the original intent of the post, even if that post is intending to say something important. And often the "offender" is a newcomer who may or may not come back after being treated in that fashion.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Well, R. Ann, I didn't say anything at the time but I was a little rubbed the wrong way by your post in the other thread. I normally like your posts very much, so I was a bit surprised. Since you honestly seem confused about what felt bad about it, I'll tell you.
quote:Your spelling, grammar and typing skills don't match those of an A student.
Great information, that's wonderful about the books, but on this forum communication skills count. You may want to proofread your post.
What bothered me was that your first sentence did not address the topic of the post at all; instead it sounded like a teacher grading an essay. Granted, you are a teacher, but you're not his teacher. Without commenting on his topic, you first jumped on his grammar and gave him a failing grade. To me, it didn't feel like a "polite" response to sandwich one positive comment on the thread topic in between two criticisms - not of the topic, but of the grammar.
If it were me, and it was my intention to respond politely, I would have responded to the topic first. Then, if I felt it bad enough to warrant it, I might say something like your second sentence.
Many of the later posts did take it farther and make it worse, though.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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For what it's worth, I did cringe when I saw that one of mine that you linked. That was not nice at all. And certainly not constructive.
I should've chosen a different tactic in particular post (as, in all honesty, I believe it needed to be). But in reality, I probably thought I was cutting the person some slack versus what I might've said.
And that's not nice of me, at all.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I tend to give the "other side" of this forum a pass on most things, because they tend to be younger, enthusiastic, and unfamiliar with the "culture" of the site. For many of those users, this is the first time they've EVER posted a Card-related note of any kind, and they've come here expressly to gush about how much they love his work, to share their enthusiasm about his oeuvre and try to meet up with other fans who're discovering the same joys.
I don't usually try to rain on their parades. I don't post, for example, that I found Homecoming kind of dull in a thread called "OMG Just read HC!" posted by somebody named OSCRawks. And I won't correct OSCRawks' grammar or spelling in any post I make in that thread, if I post in it at all. I will, in short, permit him the time and space he needs to get used to the site.
He may discover that people do not post in response to his enthusiastic, self-indulgent threads as much as he'd like. He may find that the people who've been on the forum longer may not be as interested in discussing the political elements of the Shadow series as he might have expected. And at that point, he may ask about it (even obliquely), and I'll tell him why. Sometimes he'll post something completely unrelated to being a Card fanboy, like "OMG George Bush sucks," and I'll post in THOSE threads (when I feel like it) because he's now attempting to engage the community as a community and not just a place to share OSC info.
And it's around that time that I'll start feeling comfortable enough with his presence -- that I think he's become emotionally invested enough in this place to care -- to begin dropping little hints about how to better fit in (which, after all, are what these grammar threads ultimately are, except for the ones that're blatantly patronizing.)
Telling a raw newbie who's gushing about how much he likes Card and how eagerly he's been promoting Card's books to others that his grammar is terrible is, IMO, a pretty harsh way to welcome him to Hatrack. OSC and I have had our differences -- and some words -- but I can't imagine being confrontational to newbies, particularly fanboys, until they've had some time to decide whether or not they want to belong in the first place.
Note that I don't apply this logic to people whose first posts are, say, "Here are twenty of my poems! What do you think?" These people are clearly inviting commentary and seeking entry into the larger, non-OSC-related community. But gushing fanboys get a free pass, early on.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I learn grammar rules and spelling, just to ignore them at my convienence. Makes me feel like a big man.
Posts: 530 | Registered: Jan 2003
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People often make a judgement as to a person's intelligence based on how clearly they communicate the ideas inside their head. Unfortunately, there are many bright and insightful people out there, who for whatever reason (ignorant, lazy, or apathetic), who do not use correct grammar. There also happen to be a lot of really stupid people out there who also communicate their (stupid) ideas with poor grammar and spelling. However, there aren't very many people that use correct grammar and spelling who are mentally dim.
Thus, if you use poor grammar/spelling, you might be smart, but you might be dumb.
Conversely, if you have an extended vocabulary, accurate spelling, and good knowledge of the construction of phrases, then the chances are very high that you are a smart person.
If you want to look smart, write well. If you want others to have to guess, then do whatever you want.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
R. Ann, I agree with JennaDean concerning your post on the other side. I thought it was out of character for you, and whether or not you thought you were being condescending that's how it came off.
The responses to you were way over the top, though. And I agree with you (obviously) about the importance of clear writing. But I thought your execution and timing could have been much better.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Thing is, I never did get why Ms. Dryden was made the central target (bud?) of that assault.
This is her apparently obscene comment:
quote:Your spelling, grammar and typing skills don't match those of an A student.
And this is SteveRogers comment immediately following:
quote:I'm glad you said it, rather than I. Because I feel that I've become quite a bother, constantly bugging people about that. Mine isn't that great either, but his is worse. And so are a lot of other people's posts. And it bothers me.
In short, thank you for saving me the trouble of having to correct someone again.
And that is the one that was originally quoted by Pee-master Jiminy and used to justify his attack. So how did it all turn against Ms. Dryden like it did? Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I thought I would point out that you have only one subject in that sentence, therefore you needn't use the comma.
So there ARE rules?
I wonder about that everytime I write in English. Somehow, nobody really bothers to teach that.
I can only name some major rules: - when you have a relative clause that is actually not necessary for the understanding. For example: "My husband, who is the funniest person I've ever met, lives next door." (In contrast to: "The man who happens to be my husband lives next door.") Or vice versa?
- when there is a subject in both of the clauses (as mentioned above)
- when you list something
- after expressions you use to connect sentences or clauses logically, for example "in addition to XY", "however" etc.
- between "if"-clauses...
Is there anything else important to know? If so, please tell me!
However, most of the time, I'm just guessing or put the commas in the way I'd do it in German. But I never know whether I'm right or not. I mean, aren't there any corrections by the people who correct my essays and stuff, because there is nothing wrong (with the commas), or because they just don't care?
Then again, tenses are a much bigger problem... ( )
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: I'm so confused, I need a scorecard to keep up with the multiple screen names.
I thought BandoCommando WAS Reticulum. Or is it Advent who is Reticulum?
Reticulum, who ARE you?
Oy! No, no, no!
Bando Commando is NOT in any way, shape, or form Reticulum. Reticulum and Bando Commando happen to know each other in real life. Bando Commando happened to, in the course of his job, introduce Reticulum to the Hatrack forums, unwittingly unleashing a devastating torrent of non-sensical posts onto the world. Bando Commando will cease referring to himself in the third person as of this moment.
And I have no clue who the heck Advent is - some friend of Reticulum's, I assume.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Man, after reading that thread, I'm glad I don't post on that side of the river. The anger that erupted, and the uncontained vitriol of a few of the posters, was reminiscent of some of the folks who ended up being banned on this side of the river.
That said, I agree with Tom that newbies get a bit of a pass. Granted, if a new poster is posting all over the place, taking up half the main page with new threads, and can't string a sentence together, I'm going to try to catch their ear and comment (as happened a few years back, which I alluded to in this thread that I linked earlier.
Overall, though, I don't take issue with people whose grammar is poor. Mostly, I just ignore them altogether, as I find it's not worth my time to fight through their words. Exceptions are obviously made for those who are not native speakers.
I am very much of the mind that if you don't care to make your words presentable, then I don't care to read them. Just like on a job interview - if you don't care to look presentable, the employer likely won't care to hire you. A resume written in crayon on a greasy napkin doesn't really fly, no matter how good it may be.
So, rather than pointing out mistakes, I ignore them. The small mistakes I just glance over, and the posts with major syntax/structure problems I just skip.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Tom, this time the thanks is not being fascetious (sp? See, I'm not perfect either). I appreciate your explanation and in hindsight, that's probably the safest course of action.
I can see now how my post was mis-interpreted. I'd like to apologise again. I hate rubbing people the wrong way and I'm not a big fan of confrontation. Sometimes that makes me a sheep instead of a shepherd, but it's part of who I am. So that's why I was so shoked. Anyway, I honestly didn't mean anything negative, and I still think Locke had a good story to tell.
So, I'm sorry to everyone I offended. I'll try to be more careful in future.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Locke2525: i edited it,.
I don't know how many of you noticed that comment. When R Ann made her first post on that thread, the first post still had not yet been edited and was an even worse mess than it is now. It was near incomprehensible.
Now that it's been edited, it's at least mostly readable and much easier to understand, even without standard capilization, punctuation, spelling, and the like.
Does that change anyone's opinions on R Ann's post?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
And, R. Ann, I want to clarify too that I don't think you deserved the actual reception you received in that thread. A LOT of n00bs went overboard -- on both sides -- and your moderate tone was clearly misinterpreted and ignored.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I will continue to post how I want to post. If I wish to correct grammar, I will. I wouldn't try to tell people what to do; when you haven't been here long enough to have a say in what people do.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:I wouldn't try to tell people what to do; when you haven't been here long enough to have a say in what people do.
So who has been here long enough to have a say in what people do? Anyone?
I think a little bit of courtesy to the other readers of the forum is not such a bad thing. It takes me twice as long now to type posts, because of the neuropathy in my fingertips. I also try to edit carefully, because with the numbness in my fingers my typing easily gets off track.
I don't catch every mistake, I'm sure I still send out posts with misspellings and bad grammar. But I do my best to make sure it's readable and clear to my fellow jatraqueros. Why? Because it's polite. And because I actually want to be understood.
I don't expect perfection, but I do appreciate people taking at least a little bit of time to read over their posts and make sure they are clear. If we all did at least that much - read it over one time before posting - then I think 90% of errors would be caught and corrected. Seems like there is a rush sometimes, to get your comments out there first. It would be better, I think, to take an extra moment and make sure your comment is understood as well.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle: How about those you know on the forum. Especially, when they ask you for help.
I tried something like this several years ago with a "Fix Hatrack" thread. I learned that the only people that really listen to you or converse with you about it are the ones you have come to know from posting or chatting with them.
I'm basically saying don't use blanket statements for everyone, and only try to influence those that you know, or those that you converse with, rather than trying to mold everyone to what you want them to be.
Honestly, I used to be quite the arrogant fresh meat around here 3-4 years ago. Maybe what I'm really trying to say is newer people should lurk a bit more.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jun 2005
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