posted
Our government works. Qhich is why we love it. Our militaristic ways (mostly of the past) have worked for us, and we are grateful for it.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Yeah, democracy works. But it isn't the only form of government that does. Have you ever thought that maybe there's a better one?
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quote:Our militaristic ways (mostly of the past) have worked for us, and we are grateful for it.
Ummm, how can you consider our militaristic ways a thing of the past when we are still involved in a war of agression and spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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No, Fae-Ray, Democracy is the best type of government, hands down. It is a pointless argument that there is something better. Others work, but none are as good for the people.
Rabbit, that's why I said mostly of the past. Plus, considering, it really isn't a war. The major fightning only lasted three weeks.
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[quote]Plus the whole anthem, flag waving thing is a lot more of a red state thing than a blue state thing, which is an issue I don't recall you addressing yet.[quote]
I think that's a big myth. There was as much flag waving, anthem singing, nationalistic rhetoric at the democratic convention as there was at the republican convention. It really pisses me off that the right wing has tried to co-opt what have historically been national symbols and make them into republican symbols.
Even so, I do think that Nationalism has always been a right wing ideology so it's not surprising that Nationalist sentiments are more frequently expressed in red states. I've also observed that as people try to distance themselves from the Bush administration, they also stop flying the flag and singing the anthem. That behavior is part of why I say that the flag and the anthem have become expressions of loyalty to our political and military leaders) rather than expressions of love or our land, people and culture.
You may think that the words to the National Anthem don't matter, that no one listens to them, but I disagree. It's all part of the myth that our treasured American freedoms have been won by military combat. As a woman, all my rights, including my right to vote and my right to own property, were won in the voting booths and the courts not on the field of battle. The rights of blacks, hispanics, and asians were not won by soldiers. Soldiers have never fought to protect my freedom of worship, in fact both militia's and federal troops have been used against my church. The old poem about how "It's the soldier, not the politician who has given us the right to vote", may be clever but its not true.
Everytime I hear a soldier say that he fought to defend "The Flag", I see the connection to the national anthem. I mean really, wouldn't it be tragic if people were really killing and dying to defend the flag?
On a side note, How did red get to be the color of the right wing in the US, when it is the color of the left wing every where else in the world?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Rabbit, that's why I said mostly of the past. Plus, considering, it really isn't a war. The major fightning only lasted three weeks.
I hope you don't really believe that.
Applying the same standard, the last war between Germany and France lasted only 6 weeks. Well, actually its not quite the same standard because France signed an armistice with Hitler 6 weeks after the invasion started. We still don't have an armistice with Iraq.
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quote:Democracy is the best type of government, hands down. It is a pointless argument that there is something better. Others work, but none are as good for the people
Yes, but one could easily argue that there are more democratic forms of govenment than the US form. We don't, for example, directly elect our president. Our legislative bodies are elected to represent geographic regions rather than ideological groups.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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You've never lived in a country without democracy though, have you?
I will agree with you to a degree. I think it's the best form of government. But I don't know it.
It's like... I'll use martial arts as an example.
I'm in Tae Kwon Do. I love it. To me, it's the best form of martial arts there is. But I've never been in Karate or Jiu Jitsu. So how do I know?
You can say you've heard about countries with other forms of government, but I've heard of others' experiences with different martial arts. I still agree that mine is better, but I still don't know for a fact.
Yeah, I think the people should have a say in their government. But people can be stupid. There have been mistakes in goverment, even with democracy. Especially with democracy. You can't trust that what someone says in their campaigns, or how someone acts in their campaigns, is what they're going to do or how they're going to act while they're in the actual Presidential/Prime Ministerial position. Take Stephen Harper for example. He became our Prime Minister, and in the first week he screwed up major. So I can and will say that I think democracy is the best, but I won't say I know it is until I've experienced another.
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posted
"Yes, but one could easily argue that there are more democratic forms of govenment than the US form."
Exactly. In Canada, we elect our Prime Minister. But we still have the Queen as the head of our country. She's really more of a figurehead here, however. But in Britain they have a Prime Minister too. Canada's still a democracy, but a very different one.
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posted
What does that matter? But to answer, none whatsoever. How much American hisstory do you learn?
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quote:Originally posted by The Fae-Ray: "Yes, but one could easily argue that there are more democratic forms of govenment than the US form."
Sure, I suppose you could. But then one could bring up that none have ever been as successful as the United States, in terms of economic prosperity, military, power on a global scale, influence, and other such things.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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It matters because it shows the arrogance in the American school system.
We don't learn a huge amount of American history, definately less than the amount of Canadian we learn. But we learn some. Currently we are learning about the Revolutionary war. Yeah, it ties in to the rest of the Canadian history we're learning, but we still learn about it. Because it's important.
The Revolutionary War has a lot to do with Canada, if you think about it. All of those who wanted to remain loyal to the British came here. Battles were fought here. Americans died here. But you don't learn about it because it's in Canada. America used to be Canada. There didn't used to be an America. They were all one big place shared by the British and the French. But the reason the Americans don't learn about our history is because they don't think it's as important. And that, my friend, is arrogance at it's finest.
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"Sure, I suppose you could. But then one could bring up that none have ever been as successful as the United States, in terms of economic prosperity, military, power on a global scale, influence, and other such things. "
And you could say it's also globally feared and hated. You go on holiday in another country with a Canadian flag sewn onto your backpack, totally random people come and say hi. They talk to you about Canada, how they love it, how wonderful the country is. And yes, this is true. How often does that happen with an American flag sewn onto your bag?
Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I really can't say, I don't know. You definitely have a point, but any nation that is big and powerful is bound to have those who are jelous of it, and those who don't like it. Where do you get the idea that people will automaticly say hi, just because you are from Canada? THAT is arrogance, if I have ever seen it. I'm sure there are areas of the world, that do this, but I am also sure that there areas of the world that won't.
Point: America is a big country and gets a lot of spotlight in the international world. Everything America does is put forth to all of the world. A lot of the bad things mostly. Any nation that gets this much exposure, is almost definitely going to have a bad rep, or at least, a lot who do not like it.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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"Where do you get the idea that people will automaticly say hi, just because you are from Canada?"
I never said everyone does. They don't. But it's common. Since Canada is overshadowed by America, the things that are put forth from it are generally good. Other countries don't see all the bad things we do. You have a rep for arrogance and power, and we have a rep for being a great country. These aren't the only ones, but they are some. There will be people who don't like Canada, for sure.
And yeah, it's arrogance. The stuff I just said is arrogant. You'll get some forms of arrogance from every country. The question, however, is how much and what kind of arrogance you get from that country.
Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Actually, I really wouldn't say you have a rep for being a great country. Not where I live, anyway. From what I see (where I live), most people jokingly refer to Canada as the 51st state, which is actually quite humorous. You kind of have a rep for saying eh, and replacing out with oot. Not for being a great country. This is all from what I see and hear, in my neck of the woods.
So, if someone in Canada were to say, "Get out of my house", they would say "Get oot of my hoose."
posted
Hey, I don't know for a fact that we have a rep for being a great country. But we're generous. We help out other countries when they need it (I'm not saying America doesn't) and we rarely fight in wars. But pretty much every person I talk to about holidays has a story about how people came over and talked to them about the flag on their backpacks.
Yeah, but you hear the made up version of Canada. Have you ever heard about how we drive around town in dogsleds and live in igloos? Snow year round? If you listen to television, they say "eh" there more than we do here. And I've never head someone say "aboot" instead of "about." What you hear from TV isn't neccesarily true.
Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Well, at least you can joke about this stuff. Last time I spoke to an American about this, and told them that we didn't say "eh," and actually rode cars, they proceeded to argue about how wrong I was. And when I told them that they're views were silly, they began to harass me and trash Canada.
One thing I love about being Canadian is the stereotypes from other countries. XD
Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Lucky. You guys get funny ones, whilst we get ones about murderers, and gun toters, who annex land from the poor, and invade to get rich. Wait... Do people in Canada really say "eh" all of the time?
Fat, lazy, arrogant, dumb, and others. Geeze, we get crappy ones. Well, at least we can invade them, and take over tomarrow, and then enslave them and reap the profits. Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
And while you do that, we'll drive around on our sleds led by huskies and chop wood with our lumberjack axes, then realize we forgot to turn off the oven back at the igloo. We'd be in a bit of a pickle then, eh?
Anyways, I'm off for the night. Fare thee well!
Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: [quote]Plus the whole anthem, flag waving thing is a lot more of a red state thing than a blue state thing, which is an issue I don't recall you addressing yet.[quote]
I think that's a big myth. There was as much flag waving, anthem singing, nationalistic rhetoric at the democratic convention as there was at the republican convention. It really pisses me off that the right wing has tried to co-opt what have historically been national symbols and make them into republican symbols.
Even so, I do think that Nationalism has always been a right wing ideology so it's not surprising that Nationalist sentiments are more frequently expressed in red states. I've also observed that as people try to distance themselves from the Bush administration, they also stop flying the flag and singing the anthem. That behavior is part of why I say that the flag and the anthem have become expressions of loyalty to our political and military leaders) rather than expressions of love or our land, people and culture.
You may think that the words to the National Anthem don't matter, that no one listens to them, but I disagree. It's all part of the myth that our treasured American freedoms have been won by military combat. As a woman, all my rights, including my right to vote and my right to own property, were won in the voting booths and the courts not on the field of battle. The rights of blacks, hispanics, and asians were not won by soldiers. Soldiers have never fought to protect my freedom of worship, in fact both militia's and federal troops have been used against my church. The old poem about how "It's the soldier, not the politician who has given us the right to vote", may be clever but its not true.
Everytime I hear a soldier say that he fought to defend "The Flag", I see the connection to the national anthem. I mean really, wouldn't it be tragic if people were really killing and dying to defend the flag?
On a side note, How did red get to be the color of the right wing in the US, when it is the color of the left wing every where else in the world?
And yet, the original American freedoms WERE won with military combat, over and over again. 1776, 1812, 1861...all dates that created and shaped America, all fought with soldiers in wars, and without which there would be no America as it stands today. The first century of our existance secured with war. Everything that came after was only made possible because of the original soldiers who died to secure it.
However, I do agree with what you said in regards to the current soldiers who say they fought to protect my freedoms.
But the red/blue thing isn't a myth. Bible thumpers in the south have different values than midwest suburbanites. Which isn't to say it's a different morality, it's a different view of America and the American role in the world, and that has only become more polarized in the last 6 years. Ridiculously polarized. Yes, I realize that the democratic national convention is full of flags and red white and blue balloons, but the people that throw that event aren't indicative of the average American. Almost no politician is. You can hardly use such a outrageously out there event like that as some sort of representation of the American people. I don't use the riots in France as a representation of all of Europe, or even France.
Were I to treat that the same way as apparently the Europeans view Americans, via television, I'd have a rather low opinion of their forms of crazed protest. It pisses me off too that Republicans have cloaked themselves in everything American, and have tried to inject their personal value system into the greater American way of life, as if theirs was the only way.
And I'm not entirely sure what you are saying with the distinction between political forces and love of land/culture/people. Americans have many beloved figures who are also political figures, how does that play into the theory? The right to vote for blacks, women and others was won largely through our governmental and political process. So what exactly are you celebrating?
quote:Originally posted by The Fae-Ray: It matters because it shows the arrogance in the American school system.
We don't learn a huge amount of American history, definately less than the amount of Canadian we learn. But we learn some. Currently we are learning about the Revolutionary war. Yeah, it ties in to the rest of the Canadian history we're learning, but we still learn about it. Because it's important.
The Revolutionary War has a lot to do with Canada, if you think about it. All of those who wanted to remain loyal to the British came here. Battles were fought here. Americans died here. But you don't learn about it because it's in Canada. America used to be Canada. There didn't used to be an America. They were all one big place shared by the British and the French. But the reason the Americans don't learn about our history is because they don't think it's as important. And that, my friend, is arrogance at it's finest.
I learned quite a bit about Canadian history in the early stages, as it pertained to American history. It drops off a bit after 1814, but Canada's governmental reforms and issues with Britain really don't matter much outside of Britain after 1814, at least not to American history.
I'm convinced that you don't really know all that much about American schools. I know about American forrays into Canada, and it was never called Canada, it was British North America, but even then, before the Rev War, it wasn't Canada either, you were only under British control for a decade or so before the Rev. War, and before that you were all Frenchman (my ancestors ). A better way to put it was there never used to be a Canada or an America, there was a British Empire. Then we created America. A long time after that, you guys created Canada.
You want to talk about arrogance? Arrogance is assuming all Americans are stupid just because they were educated in America, and that you know more than us just because you were educated outside of America. That's arrogance. American schools teach tirelessly about World War II, World War I, Korea, Vietnam and tons of other places where Americans fought and died. You're welcome by the way.
And no, I don't think that I personally am deserved a thank you, but jeez, of all the arrogance, assuming that Americans don't learn about other countries just because they are geographically removed from us, even when our own men have died there. You're beyond arrogant, you're downright insulting, and ignorant.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Where did that come from? Well, whenever I read yours, I think of some snooty waiter serving squids on platter at a fancy party.
Hmmmm, this might make a good thread. What think?
It was just a random observation. No more than that.
I also sometimes think of diverticulum when I see your name. So I'm kinda split.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Our militaristic ways (mostly of the past) have worked for us, and we are grateful for it.
Ummm, how can you consider our militaristic ways a thing of the past when we are still involved in a war of agression and spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined.
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Reticulum, whenever I see your name, I think Rectum. This is really unfortunate. I'm sorry.
This might have something to do with the fact that he appears to talk out of that end more than half the time in this particular thread ... or then again, maybe not Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
And so Fahim, tell me what gives you the right to just come in and say that? Not a very kind thing. I'd appreciate it that if you aren't going to even to contribute to this thread, but insult the people in it, you never post in it again.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Well, LeoJ, saying that education sucks in America is kind of an unfair statement. Have you ever been to an American school and been educated there? What are you comparing it too? All these scores you see Americans getting on tests are all averages. Does it mean every person in America is as intelligent as this test? No. There are a lot of intelligent people in America. There are also a lot of dumb people. In those kinds of tests, they put a person who gets strait A's, in the same group as a person who gets strait F's. Is this an accurate way to judge the intelligence of a nation? No, it is not.
ok...?
Buddy if you havnt read my last replies, I DID HS in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Compared to free or as someone said “publically-funded” education in most european countries is way better than the public education from the US.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: A majority of the top 50 universities in the world are in the United States. Thousands come from all over the world to study in America. If you want to make such a RIDICULOUSLY blanket statement like that, at least try and back it up.
I think you are trying to refer to everything except for higher education. And while I'll admit that our education system, below the college level, could use some work, it is far from sucking.
If you know that i dont mean higher education, why you show off with "A majority of the top 50 universities in the world are in the United States." see...
---Arrogant---
Lyr dont take it to the heart, i like you budd.
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Reticulum, whenever I see your name, I think Rectum.
HAHAHAHA i agree but didnt want to say anything about it...
posted
oh, wait i forgot Lyr, community college does suck, well the ones from hudson and bergen county in NJ, i dont know the rest. Compared to public universities here in spain where they are far from sucking and you only pay for credits and books Posts: 56 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Reticulum, whenever I see your name, I think Rectum. This is really unfortunate. I'm sorry.
This might have something to do with the fact that he appears to talk out of that end more than half the time in this particular thread ... or then again, maybe not
Oh boy i missed this one and it made me laugh more than the other one
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quote:The communist thing was a joke. And no, communism works for no one. It never has, and never will. Democracy works. It is the reason America has the longest lasting government currently in order.
We know now it was a joke and it didn't work. I know, I grew up in communist country.
You can't say Democracy works, it works the best out of all the other systems. If you are looking at it from the Western world point of view. Democracy doesn't work in other parts of the world.
And America does have the longest lasting government in order. Really? So how do you deal with the question of slavery (which in Europe was abolished way before US) and segregation? That simply does not go together with the Democracy, or does it?
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And America does have the longest lasting government in order. Really? So how do you deal with the question of slavery (which in Europe was abolished way before US) and segregation? That simply does not go together with the Democracy, or does it?
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: One of my Canadian friends once complained to me that "Americans tend to forget that their are 2 countries in North America".
quote:Sure, I suppose you could. But then one could bring up that none have ever been as successful as the United States, in terms of economic prosperity, military, power on a global scale, influence, and other such things
While none are currently as successful in those terms, others have been in the past (take England for example. Even right now many European countries have a higher standard of living than the US.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote: And America does have the longest lasting government in order. Really? So how do you deal with the question of slavery (which in Europe was abolished way before US) and segregation? That simply does not go together with the Democracy, or does it?
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Well, LeoJ, saying that education sucks in America is kind of an unfair statement. Have you ever been to an American school and been educated there? What are you comparing it too? All these scores you see Americans getting on tests are all averages. Does it mean every person in America is as intelligent as this test? No. There are a lot of intelligent people in America. There are also a lot of dumb people. In those kinds of tests, they put a person who gets strait A's, in the same group as a person who gets strait F's. Is this an accurate way to judge the intelligence of a nation? No, it is not.
ok...?
Buddy if you havnt read my last replies, I DID HS in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Compared to free or as someone said “publically-funded” education in most european countries is way better than the public education from the US.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: A majority of the top 50 universities in the world are in the United States. Thousands come from all over the world to study in America. If you want to make such a RIDICULOUSLY blanket statement like that, at least try and back it up.
I think you are trying to refer to everything except for higher education. And while I'll admit that our education system, below the college level, could use some work, it is far from sucking.
If you know that i dont mean higher education, why you show off with "A majority of the top 50 universities in the world are in the United States." see...
---Arrogant---
Lyr dont take it to the heart, i like you budd.
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Reticulum, whenever I see your name, I think Rectum.
HAHAHAHA i agree but didnt want to say anything about it...
I don't know, I think you are probably the most arrogant jerk here. Sure I am arrogant, but you don't see me making stupid jokes intended to hurt others.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Oh, yes, and don't forget T, that the Soviet Union had labour camps up untill 1960, and Nazi Germany had them too. But I suppose those don't count, do they? And as for slavery being abolished in U.S. way after. The North states got rid of it soon, many right after the Revolution. It was the south who did not. Infact, all the way up to the civil war, there was great conflict between the states over slavery.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
So for this country that you love, you are content that we are better than the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany? When I love something, I want it to be the best it can possibly be. I don't settle for "not the absolute worst".
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: So for this country that you love, you are content that we are better than the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany? When I love something, I want it to be the best it can possibly be. I don't settle for "not the absolute worst".
Well, I was giving those just as examples, and that T claimed Europe got rid of slavery "way before" the U.S. did, and I thought those would be two very good answers.
Plus, what's with the Rectum thing? Does it make any difference in anyones life? Does it contibute at all to any of your points? I would appreciate it if you guys stopped, please.
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). A better way to put it was there never used to be a Canada or an America, there was a British Empire. Then we created America. A long time after that, you guys created Canada. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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