posted
If this is a medical issue, I seriously suggest as well as seeing a couple's therapist, you see an individual therapist who knows about her illness. You need to know what you can actually expect and what you can't. My husband has a mental disease and while the situation is very different, it helped both of us a lot when he gave his therapist permission to discuss things with me, so I could get a good idea of what was reasonable on my part. I have my own therapist as well, but I actually had to change because she was not on the same page as the rest of us (ex- during my husband's low points, he can not help with housework- it is just too much- if I complained to a therapist, my therapist would go into how unjust this was and how I should think about divorce- when I said I didn't want to talk about divorce, she went into this whole thing about how if our marriage wasn't strong enough to consider divorce then it couldn't be that strong and therefore why worth staying- I argued dwelling on the negatives wasn't helping anyone, she said I was living in denial, I said I wasn't wasting my time with her again).
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
The whole medication thing seems very difficult. I've been very negatively influenced by medication prescribed to me once for ADD, and, well, I said and did many things that are similar to her behavior (but my level of mental health was worse than the way she is being described).
So yes, it can have a huge effect. How much it is to blame, how much she is, if it is to blame at all, and whether or not this can work for you...very hard questions. My heart goes out to you and I wish you the best of luck.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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jason, I am so sorry that you are going through this. Good luck with the therapist, and remember that you are a great deal stronger than you may think you are.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by jasonepowell: I'm not religious in any way, but I'm a very committed person. My own parents split when I was young, and my mother went through a couple of additional husbands before landing a keeper. My life's goal is to not go through that. And look where it got me.
I'm very sorry for what's happened to you, and can only imagine what it would be like to be cheated on. I do, however, know what it's like to grow up with divorced parents, and can understand where you're coming from. My parents divorced eachother when I was thirteen, and although there was never any infedelitie, my father's had several girlfriends since then, including one he started going out only shortly after he moved out. It may also be worth mentioning that they had both been married and divorced once before they met eachother.
Usually in life, we can look at another person's life and gain wisdom from the outside, learning from that person's mistakes and successes. This is incredibly difficult for a child to do while looking at their parents, however. Our parents are our models for the world, and we, regardless of how we try, have a tendency to emulate them, mistakes and all, because that's what we grew up knowing. That's why people who were abused as children are likely to be abusive parents, because they were seldom nurtured, and so don't know how to be nurturing.
My girlfriend and I both come from divorced parents, and we believe that many of our communication issues stem, in part, from this. Despite how much we care about eachother, we have little idea of how we are supposed to talk; the things we're supposed to say and leave unsaid (hurtful things that weren't meant to hurt). This not to say that all our troubles in the relationship were caused by our parents, but it's an obstacle to overcome.
I suspect that your case is somewhat similar. This is not to say that anything is your fault, but if it turns out that there was an underlying problem in the relationship that you were unaware of, this might help explain it, and/or why you didn't notice it. Again, this is not to say that your parents are the ones to blame for your troubles, but being brought up in that kind of environment probably created an obstacle in your relationship. It's possible that it was an obstacle too big to be overcome (sometimes I think the only reason my girlfriend and I are still together is because we have BOTH experienced such a childhood, and are BOTH deeply committed to not repeating our parents' mistakes. That and our love for eachother).
That being said, my heart goes out to you. I can't imagine what I would do in your situation, and I think you have been showing a great deal of strength through it all. I hope you can work something out with the therapist that will give you peace. God bless, man.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: when I said I didn't want to talk about divorce, she went into this whole thing about how if our marriage wasn't strong enough to consider divorce then it couldn't be that strong and therefore why worth staying.
Wow! "Strong enough to consider divorce" what kind of idiotic psycho babble is that.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
jasonepowell - Man. Glad to see that you're taking care of you throughout all this. I can only imagine that it's like you woke up in someone else's life or something along those lines... I hope that however things play out you find happiness and don't blame yourself. We can influence others but we certainly can't control everything they do. She made a conscious decision on her own to do what she did.
On a different note, if medicine/medical 'stuff' impeeded her judgement or altered her self in anyway, it might be really hard for her once she gets back to her baseline and realizes what she's done. I'm NOT trying to justify anything.
Very tough (for lack of a better word) situation. Keep on keeping on...
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I know that medication has been mentioned several times, but I don't see any mention of what it is/what it is for. Maybe I'm just missing it; I'm a little spacey today. But I might be able to give you some more specific advice, if you've mentioned it already, if someone could point it out to me.
Anyways, when it comes to emotional issues, I think a big problem is that...you kind of have to be able to separate the whole emotional issue/unhappiness with life thing from the relationship. Y'know? It's like...I have a boyfriend, but I'm still lonely, since I've had to ditch a whole bunch of friends recently. Does that make any sense?
posted
I don't know what to say, nor do I really feel qualified to offer advice in the situation. I just hate that you're going through it, jason. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, everyone. We'll get through it one way or the other, but it certainly isn't easy.
pH - her doctor increased her anti-depression medication by a good amount and gave her a daily dose of a panic attack reliever. She seemed to respond very well to it initially, but apparently it somehow caused her to decide to ruin her life as well. I've read a bunch of stuff, and everything I can find says that what she's on decreases sex drive, not increases to an extreme, but I suppose everyone's brain is different.
Posts: 1281 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Storm, you are right. A therapist once told me: "sometimes a kid acts up because they are... a kid." I guess I would just want to make so sure that it wasn't a physical cause. Not because it would change what had happened, but because it gives me a smidge more empathy or something and would allow me to give it a little bit of distance so that I could work through my reactions.
Whatever the cause, this is an enormously complicated mess, you know?
And yes, good luck today.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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I don't want any stress to your already very unhappy situation. I know it can be very cathartic and helpful to talk about the situation here.
I think, though, it would be better not to do it under your real name (if that is your real name). This is a public place, and I think it would be prudent to protect your and your spouse's privacy a little bit. I think posting is fine; advice and especially support can be invaluable, but I think there is reason to suppose you might regret having everything tracable back to you. Just thinking. Maybe register a pen name for this occasion?
I hope things are going well today. I wish the best for you.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
noemon - I left last night - I knew that if I stayed it would be very bad, and if I left, at least there wasn't any danger of getting hurt or things being broken.
katharina - You are probably right. It's a bit late now though, unfortunately. :-(
Posts: 1281 | Registered: Feb 2001
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I have been going through some tough times with my wife (no infidelity, though--though I was the risk there, not her).
There are a number of support groups on-line, such as www.divorcesupport.com. You might want to take a look there.
All the responses here have been compassionate and reasonable, so I'm not saying try the other site because of "quality" issues! But the people there are there for pretty much one reason only--divorce. Some are divorced, some have done the divorcing, and some are or have been considering divorce.
You need to get a lawyer, right now. You need to establish your rights, including assets. I will brutally predict that you cannot recover anything of value from your marriage, and the "medical" issue is not in any way a valid excuse for her behavior. I assume you have no children, and the marriage is (itself) in its infancy. Get a lawyer to protect yourself and to initiate divorce proceedings. You cannot fix this.
Hugs, dude. She's made your life suck. It's up to you to save yourself.
quote:Originally posted by jasonepowell: Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, everyone. We'll get through it one way or the other, but it certainly isn't easy.
pH - her doctor increased her anti-depression medication by a good amount and gave her a daily dose of a panic attack reliever. She seemed to respond very well to it initially, but apparently it somehow caused her to decide to ruin her life as well. I've read a bunch of stuff, and everything I can find says that what she's on decreases sex drive, not increases to an extreme, but I suppose everyone's brain is different.
It does depend on the person. Some kinds of depressants can also give a numb kind of mental and emotional feeling, so it's possible that she's not doing it out of a sex drive so much as an effort to make herself feel something. Others make orgasm well nigh impossible, but leave the sex drive intact.
But thank goodness (I continue to assume) there are no children.
For her to cheat, right at the moment when Jason says, "Please--don't cheat"...well, she certainly wants the divorce. There ain't a mental disease out there--certainly not one worth staying married to--that would lead a person to such an act.
Or, Jason, you could just throw away your life and stay in the relationship.
Posts: 1862 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Boothby171: There ain't a mental disease out there--certainly not one worth staying married to--that would lead a person to such an act.
As an aside: you might find Oliver Sacks' The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and An Anthropologist on Mars to be fascinating reading. The amazing strangeness and improbability of neurological disorders is really quite astounding. There are similar stories of bizarre (and doubtlessly unintentioned in the traditional sense) actions of people with all sorts of other mental illnesses.
Take, for example, this excerpt from the online text, Conversations With Neil's Brain, written by two neurophysiologists from the University of Washington:
quote: And, of course, injuries to the temporal lobe can cause someone’s personality to change.
“In what way?”
On Saturday morning neurosurgery rounds, I once saw a man with a head injury. The nurses had posted a handwritten sign on the door to his room: “Do not give this patient matches!” He had been mischievously lighting matches and throwing them around the room. Nothing lethargic about this guy. He didn’t want to be in the hospital. He was bright-eyed, aggressive with the docs, teasing the nurses, and generally acting like a sailor in port, looking for a good time. If he could have walked, it would have been with a swagger — however, his leg was injured also.
The next Saturday, there was another temporal lobe contusion patient. This man was meek, most hesitant in his dealings with the staff, usually averting his gaze when talking with someone — totally different from last week’s patient. I didn’t realize, until we were talking about him afterward in the hallway, that this was the very same patient I’d seen the previous week.
“But which was his real personality?”
The second one. His family had been rather perplexed at the fun-loving sailor. Which warned the neurosurgeons that the temporal lobe’s limbic circuits were probably getting injured by brain swelling. And that they needed to do something quickly to shrink the brain a little. That usually means giving diuretics and the like, to reduce the amount of water in the uninjured regions of the brain. You can sometimes “buy time” that way.
“Good thing he didn’t walk out of the hospital. God knows what he would have gotten into.”
Into a coma, most likely.
It is really amazing that so often the mind can function positively in interactions throughout the day. So many things can go so unpredictably off course. We all seem to be in a rather intricate and delicate dance of homeostasis, and the speed and vigor of that constant unseen footwork is too challenging (or frightening) for most of us to ponder at any great length.
As another aside, I imagine that one would "stay married" to the person, not the mental disease. However, this may or may not be relevant to jep's case.
Regardless, I wish him and you well. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I would agree that it is harsh, but I would also agree that if she is unwilling to change her behavior, and she sees nothing wrong with cheating on her husband, then it would be a waste to stay in such a relationship and call it marriage.
Boothby171 has obviously been through some similar situations, as have I. I can tell you honestly that once I found out that my now-ex had no desire to remain married, and in fact didn't really care about me any more, it was a horrible emotional blow.
At the same time, I soon realized that there was no point in continuing to go through the motions. She had already decided, long before in fact, that she didn't want to be married any more. She just didn't bother to tell me. Why would she? She was being supported emotionally and financially, she got to have Internet romances, and I was none the wiser. I was the only one who stood to gain anything by moving on with my life, instead of suffering through it.
Maybe Jason is lucky, and he's caught things in time. Maybe his wife is responding poorly to her medication, and made a single mistake. Maybe she loves him with all her heart, and is willing to seek help, change her medication, and do what it takes go make things right.
Maybe Jason can forgive her and work on trusting her again, and they can get their previous, loving, honest marriage back. I really hope so, because the alternative is one of the most painful things you can go through.
If not though, Jason needs, NEEDS to take care of himself, because his wife has already shown a serious disregard for his feelings. If she has, in fact, given up on the marriage, she may very well be planning to move in with some other man and take who knows what with her.
It's a really bad situation, and it can get better, or it can get much worse. I hope that Jason comes out of it in the best way possible. If the best way possible is patching things up, that's truly awesome. If his wife isn't interested in that way, then the best way possible for him is to get a lawyer, make sure he doesn't get taken for a ride, and get as much support as possible for the tough road ahead.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I keep thinking of the "till death to us part," vow and wondering how some people can advise him to break that oath permanently when we do not know her mental state and personal demons. I'm so glad they are seeing a therapist.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Ok, so two things happened yesterday - she went to her physician to find out how much the medication was affecting her, and we went to the therapist.
The physician says that there's no way the medication could be the cause of any of this, as it will only now be taking affect. I guess that gets rid of the last excuse I was making for her actions.
At the therapist, she was actually honest, but entirely uninterested in committing to anything. She wanted a "trial separation" while she "finds herself"... I am supposed to go find a place to live for now. She would not commit to not having sex with anyone, she would not commit to being safe, she wouldn't commit to anything.
The therapist seems to be taking the pragmatic view, encouraging me to "find myself" as well and figure out how to be a stronger person. Presumably because he recognizes the futility of any thought of reconciliation when she fully intends to keep doing what she's doing.
I was so mad when I left, because it's just so unfair to me - I have to leave, find a place to live, keep waiting in limbo while she engages in dangerous and risky behavior (not to mention extremely hurtful), and figure out a way to both get "stronger" without her as well as not close the door on our marriage. She has to do.... nothing. At all. I figured the therapist would want some kind of committment from both of us, and I don't understand why that didn't happen.
Posts: 1281 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I think the therapist can't get a committment from someone who clearly doesn't want to make one.
Aw jason, this blows. I'm so sorry. Call a lawyer today, get a financial advisor, protect your assets, and take your stuff and move out. There are no kids and you're both adults, so she should be able to take care of herself.
quote:I have to leave, find a place to live, keep waiting in limbo while she engages in dangerous and risky behavior (not to mention extremely hurtful), and figure out a way to both get "stronger" without her as well as not close the door on our marriage.
I assume you do realise you don't HAVE to do anything on this list. If your wife refuses to make any sort of committment to you she can't reasonably demand any specifics from you. And neither can the therapist, of course. It becomes a question of what you want to do. So what DO you want to do?
Btw, I realise there might be all sorts of reason for why it would be charitable (and easier) for you to move out of the house and she to remain. But if you wish her to come back to you eventually, it might be an idea to ask her to move in with her new friend and stay in the house yourself. Manipulative as that might be.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Why not have her move out? I'm just sayin'. (And, apparently, too slowly, having failed to refresh before getting around to typing.)
Seriously, there's absolutely no reason for you to inconvenience yourself, here. And I think forcing her to take actual steps -- even if they're actual steps away from you -- might help her realize that she IS in fact making choices instead of blowing in the wind.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Echoing the sentiments of everyone else: this really sucks and I'm sorry you have to go through it. Good luck, and remember -- you've done nothing wrong here.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this, Jason. I, too, would advise getting a lawyer of your own on retainer.
I would also advise speaking to a therapist on your own, if you can afford it and there is one available to you. Otherwise, you might try sitting down somewhere quiet and thinking about the very best outcome left open to you, and working toward that. It might mean staying there and making her leave (certainly sensible, in my book), but it might mean getting as far away from her as possible (another sensible option, as duking it out over the digs may not be helpful to your state of mind -- I don't know, as I don't know you or enough about the situation).
A lawyer can help make sure that your decisions on whether or not to move out do not affect your legal standing with regards to property and marital assests.
posted
Well, the problem here is that she has no place to stay here - her family lives a few hours away and I don't think she has friends that she would be able to move in with. We're both on the lease agreement for the condo we live in, so I can't force her to leave.
The thing that's difficult is that she's basically recieved absolution from the therapist that she's ok to do what she wants. And she wants me to continue to support her lifestyle because she doesn't want to have to change. She wants everything the same; cushy life, nice place, nice things... and oh yeah, random men from the internet coming over without the inconvenience of me being there.
The therapist didn't do a thing to show her that her actions have consequences at all. I understand that in the inital visit he's not going to be passing judgement or anything, but I wish he had actually held her to some kind of committment - no matter how small.
Posts: 1281 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
She has a place to stay as much as you have a place to stay. This is her decision, so yes, I think she should be the one to move out. The therapist is not the end-all be-all of this.
You NEED to get a lawyer TODAY for all of the reasons everyone else has said. Getting a lawyer doesn't mean you have to get a divorce, but you should certainly have one to arrange a legal separation. You have to protect yourself. I'm no lawyer, but I've always thought that if someone cheats they are not legally entitled to alimony and support. Your lawyer could tell you whether that is true and what your rights are. You can find out whether you are legally obligated to pay for her residence plus your own.
Please get a lawyer. Right now.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I really don't understand this - she's the one who's leaving the marriage, but you're the one who has to leave home?
If she wants things to stay the same, if she wants to act married by living in your home and having you pay for things, then she needs to behave like she's married. If she wants to leave the marriage, then she needs to leave. If she wants to act not-married, then she ought to find out what it would be like to not be married. On her own.
And in my totally biased opinion, I'd find another therapist. One whose values about marriage and fidelity are compatible with yours.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Jason, you don't have to move out. I think you should stop talking to us and start talking to a lawyer. Not that we don't want you to continue to seek support here - I hope you do but because right now an attorney is in the best position to help you.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by jasonepowell: And she wants me to continue to support her lifestyle because she doesn't want to have to change. She wants everything the same; cushy life, nice place, nice things... and oh yeah, random men from the internet coming over without the inconvenience of me being there.
You don't have to help her keep those things for herself, though. I agree with everyone who's saying she should be the one moving out. If SHE wants a trial separation, SHE needs to separate.
posted
I realize this is kind of third hand therapist advice, so please take it as such and not as any type of qualified advice, but: when my mother trying to decide whether or not to leave a 24 year relationship with my father she struggled over the same type thing jason seems to - where would he go? How would he support himself? etc. My mom had been the primary source of support for the marriage and was the primary breadwinner. She probably stayed two years longer than she wanted to because she felt a sense of obligation to continue supporting him.
Well, finally a therapist told her that he was an adult and perfectly capable of taking care of himself and she needed to realize that. She did, she left, and two weeks later the house they had been living in was destroyed by a tornado - and my stepfather had not paid the insurance so it was uninsured. Now he had no place to live at all.
But, with my mother gone he had to take responsibility for himself and he has. He has a job that he's kept for several years (almost a record for him, he used to bounce from job to job all the time) and an apartment and vehicle that he maintains and pays the bills for himself. I think that he was unable to support himself only because my mother allowed him to be unable to support himself.
Your wife wants to have all the benefits of being married to you and none of the responsibility. You do NOT have to agree to that. She is the one asking for a separation, so tell her she must be the one to leave. it doesn't matter how many family she has nearby or what - that just doesn't matter. She wants the change in her life, let her take responsiblity for the change and do it herself. Her lack of family support in the area is not your problem. If she has no place to stay and needs to stay with family, then she can move away to where her family is.
Jason, I'm just terribly sorry. I hope you get some good sound legal advice and I echo CT's advice - I hope you find a therapist for yourself that is more in line with your own values.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I agree with everything in Belle's post. It's not her medication, and she's a grown up. If she wants to separate from you, she needs to do that herself. You don't have to accomodate her.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I'll just briefly log in with a fervent desire that Jason take good care of himself, whatever that may be.
I'm a little worried about a possible Pyrrhic victory over who stays and who goes. On the one hand, it might make the best sense to stay. On the other hand, if it were me in the situation as described, I'd be setting myself up for a major depression: unable to sleep well, toxic environment, always second-guessing myself and the other, absolutely miserable. I (and this is me, not Jason) would need to get somewhere warm and safe and loving, and I'd need to focus on long-term damage control for myself and my finances more than I'd need to prove a point.
But that's in part because I have a big fragile spot of vulnerability when it comes to sleep deprivation and extended non-resolved conflict. (I can work through a heckuva lot with a partner who is at least minimally trying to work with me, but the opposite I find appalling to deal with in my living space long term.)
Regardless, I can understand that staying and fighting for what one feels is right can be important, too. [Edited to add: and even possibly critical to one's sense of well-being] I'd just like to encourage Jason to make it as well-considered and thoughtful a decision as possible, and to gather all his resources and support around him first, as Belle has noted above. (Own lawyer, own therapist, own decisions. Important stuff.)
*butting back out now Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
This is a question for jason's lawyer, but I'm just wondering what happens when he moves out to the lease and his responsibility to pay for the apartment. If there's a legal order of separation, can he have his name removed from the lease so she has to pay for the apartment herself?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: I can't post on Hatrack from work and can't see profiles without logging in. I saw jasonepowell's thread and would really like someone to suggest two things to him, as soon as possible:
1.) See a lawyer before moving out or asking her to leave. There are simple things that must be done in some states to avoid charges of abandonment.
2.) Posting in public about marital problems might cause trouble in the proceedings - it can look vindictive, and it creates a record. He should ask his lawyer if he should erase the thread. Not to deny it was posted if asked, but to avoid handing her ammunition. Once lawyers come into the picture, it can be important to preserve privilege. Public posting can destroy privilege.
Would you feel comfortable fowarding this message - either in the thread (you can publicly state this is from Dagonee)...
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