quote:I do call comparing giving oxygen to premature babies to eating a diet that has proven itself over tens of thousands of years to be cheating.
That's one way to avoid actually addressing the issue.
I note that you still have not grasped what the purpose of that comparison was, nor bothered to address why the example is relevant.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I didn't start the whole "ohh, he's being a meany" thing. I don't actually give a flaming rip what I get called by most of you here or on Sake. IIRC, Primal started it. Call me what you want. I understand how hard it is to have you dietary ignorance shoved in your face. It took me years to accept these conclusions. I grew up on probably the same diet the rest of you did. Changing your assumptions can be hard.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I didn't start the whole "ohh, he's being a meany" thing. I don't actually give a flaming rip what I get called by most of you here or on Sake. IIRC, Primal started it. Call me what you want. I understand how hard it is to have you dietary ignorance shoved in your face. It took me years to accept these conclusions. I grew up on probably the same diet the rest of you did. Changing your assumptions can be hard.
Translated: Moooooooom! Primal started it! He and his friends won't take my assertions at face value! They keeps wanting to question the underlying assumptions of my arguments! It's not fair!
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
OK, here's more support. Bob sent me an article on folic acid deficiency and neural tube defects. The article clearly showed a link between that particular vitamin deficiency and neural tube defects in human infants. Dr. Price quotes at least a dozen or more studies that show clear links between single-vitamin-deficient-diets in animals and specific, predictable birth defects.
Price readly admitted that certain deficiencies produce different results between species, but always the same result within a given species.
native americans knew how to prevent scurvy by eating certain adrenal glands and the inner walls of animals' stomachs. Dr. Price tested the vitamin C content of these foods and found it to be extremely high.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I totally read "Mooooooom" as onomatopoetic. Then I just guessed it was the sound a flaming rip might make.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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If we really take seriously the subject of our consideration, then we will care more about the information itself being right than ourselves being right. Unfortunately, often when people get backed into a corner in a public discussion, saving face becomes much more important than being accurate.
---
Edited to add: This happens all the time. I think everyone feels that pull. I respect (and trust) most those who resist it.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Somebody left some weird newspaper on my windshield last night. I read one sentence of it about how we're hurting our bodies with "our Western diets" and burst out laughing. I will have to go get it from my car and quote some of it here.
posted
So steven. In order to get my folic acid, is it ok for me to take a vitamin supplement that contains folic acid, and eat grean leafy veggies, rather than eating adreanal glands and stomach linings? (which I have to admit sounds distasteful)
How do you implement this information in your own diet on a day-to-day basis?
posted
Scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency, not folate.
Both vitamin B-12 and vitamin C do share one thing, though. They are destroyed by cooking.
Raw liver has a fair amount of vitamin C and B-12. I know I don't have to tell you that citrus fruits and strawberries have lots of vitamin C.
Raw animal products of most any kind have sufficient b-12 in them. Raw dairy, raw fish, raw liver especially. If you are worried about parasites, supplement with coconut or coconut oil, hydrogen peroxide, crushed papaya seeds, crushed squash or pumpkin seeds, or other anti-parasitics.
I myself use a lot of hydrogen peroxide internally, as well as coconut oil.
I enjoy a lot of raw shrimp with the heads on, raw liver, raw fish eggs, raw dairy in season, raw oysters, clams, coconut oil, dulse, as well as plenty of raw fruits.
Some of the weston price crowd thinks I'm unusually hardcore.
If you're going to eat raw oysters, fine, but I don't recommend it unless you have some way to deal with the food poisoning. I've gotten pretty sick twice from raw oysters.
I drink 1-3 quarts of water a day. That's been true for years now. I try not to eat within 3 hours of bedtime. I also drink most of my water early in the day, before I eat.
Truly unrefined sea salt is very useful for the digestion. I recommend it highly for all chronic digestion problems.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I completely understand that very dilute H2O2 is very useful for medical purposes (though this is the first I've heard of it ingested) I have to always laugh because my first thought of the stuff is always as rocket fuel but that's just the Rocket Scientist in me
[edit] that being said, German and Russian soldiers were known to drink real rocket fuel undiluted, so I shouldn't be that suprised/amused
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I'm curious, how does sea salt aid in digestion, and how does H2O2, when taken internally, detox the body of heavy metals?
I'm not asking to pick a fight, which I feel is a necessary point to make in this thread, but simply because it's been years since my biology classes, and I'm unsure what specific effects these might have.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by steven: OK, here's more support. Bob sent me an article on folic acid deficiency and neural tube defects. The article clearly showed a link between that particular vitamin deficiency and neural tube defects in human infants. Dr. Price quotes at least a dozen or more studies that show clear links between single-vitamin-deficient-diets in animals and specific, predictable birth defects.
Price readly admitted that certain deficiencies produce different results between species, but always the same result within a given species.
native americans knew how to prevent scurvy by eating certain adrenal glands and the inner walls of animals' stomachs. Dr. Price tested the vitamin C content of these foods and found it to be extremely high.
quote:Originally posted by steven: Scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency, not folate.
Both vitamin B-12 and vitamin C do share one thing, though. They are destroyed by cooking.
Raw liver has a fair amount of vitamin C and B-12. I know I don't have to tell you that citrus fruits and strawberries have lots of vitamin C.
Raw animal products of most any kind have sufficient b-12 in them. Raw dairy, raw fish, raw liver especially. If you are worried about parasites, supplement with coconut or coconut oil, hydrogen peroxide, crushed papaya seeds, crushed squash or pumpkin seeds, or other anti-parasitics.
I myself use a lot of hydrogen peroxide internally, as well as coconut oil.
I enjoy a lot of raw shrimp with the heads on, raw liver, raw fish eggs, raw dairy in season, raw oysters, clams, coconut oil, dulse, as well as plenty of raw fruits.
Some of the weston price crowd thinks I'm unusually hardcore.
If you're going to eat raw oysters, fine, but I don't recommend it unless you have some way to deal with the food poisoning. I've gotten pretty sick twice from raw oysters.
I drink 1-3 quarts of water a day. That's been true for years now. I try not to eat within 3 hours of bedtime. I also drink most of my water early in the day, before I eat.
Truly unrefined sea salt is very useful for the digestion. I recommend it highly for all chronic digestion problems.
posted
Sea salt increases digestive secretions of all types, particularly HydroChloric acid in the stomach. More acid=more total breakdown of the food.
Peroxide worked for a guy I know of who used to work in the mining industry. He had 4 times the lethal limit of lead and cadmium in his body, and was told by his doctor that he had two weeks to live. He was sleeping 22 hours a day, and had other very unpleasant symptoms. He started taking peroxide, and 3 days later his symptoms started showing noticeable improvement. After 18 months of peroxide taken internally, his heavy metal numbers had dropped by half. He was and is still free of the problems he had from the heavy metals. This was back in the early 90s. He's still around today.
Peroxide is generally known for this property among the health-food-store crowd.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Both vitamin B-12 and vitamin C do share one thing, though. They are destroyed by cooking.
Raw liver has a fair amount of vitamin C and B-12. I know I don't have to tell you that citrus fruits and strawberries have lots of vitamin C.
Raw animal products of most any kind have sufficient b-12 in them. Raw dairy, raw fish, raw liver especially. If you are worried about parasites, supplement with coconut or coconut oil, hydrogen peroxide, crushed papaya seeds, crushed squash or pumpkin seeds, or other anti-parasitics.
If eating raw animals were the only way to get B-12, quite a sizable portion of the population would get B-12 deficiency, which has serious neurological consequences. So there must be other ways to get B-12 besides eating raw meat.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I feel the need to point out that while dilute H2O2 has legitimate external uses, taking it internally (especially if insufficiently diluted) is potentially quite dangerous.
My stomach is acting up just thinking about it!
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
A sizable portion of the elderly do indeed get a B-12 deficiency, resulting in dementia and anemia.
From the Wiki on B-12:
"B12 deficiency is the cause of several forms of anemia. The treatment for this disease was first devised by William Murphy who bled dogs to make them anemic and then fed them various substances to see what (if anything) would make them healthy again. He discovered that ingesting large amounts of liver seemed to cure the disease. George Minot and George Whipple then set about to chemically isolate the curative substance and ultimately were able to isolate vitamin B12 from the liver. For this, all three shared the 1934 Nobel Prize in Medicine."
Told ya. And B-12 is very heat-sensitive. Over-cook it, and it denatures.
The wiki claims that b-12 is present in fortified breakfast cereals. However, common sense will tell us that, until further scientific testing is available, the smart money is on getting it from naturally-occurring sources.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Oh, and steven? I resent the implication that we are all dietarily ignorant because we don't agree with your particular view on diet. Many of us have strong backgrounds in health and science and have quite a bit of knowledge about diet and its relationship to health.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by steven: A sizable portion of the elderly do indeed get a B-12 deficiency, resulting in dementia and anemia.
From the Wiki on B-12:
"B12 deficiency is the cause of several forms of anemia. The treatment for this disease was first devised by William Murphy who bled dogs to make them anemic and then fed them various substances to see what (if anything) would make them healthy again. He discovered that ingesting large amounts of liver seemed to cure the disease. George Minot and George Whipple then set about to chemically isolate the curative substance and ultimately were able to isolate vitamin B12 from the liver. For this, all three shared the 1934 Nobel Prize in Medicine."
Told ya. And B-12 is very heat-sensitive. Over-cook it, and it denatures.
The wiki claims that b-12 is present in fortified breakfast cereals. However, common sense will tell us that, until further scientific testing is available, the smart money is on getting it from naturally-occurring sources.
The elderly get B-12 deficiency because of absorption problems, not because they don't eat raw meat. Even if they ate raw meat, they might have B-12 deficiency.
Your response does not address the vast majority of the population that is clearly not walking around with B-12 deficiency.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Sometimes I hate the Internet. I tried researching the effects of salt in the digestive process, and every link I found was a page selling some kind of specialty salt, going on and on about how awesome it is, or a page by salt-haters talking about how you wouldn't drink chlorine from the swimming pool, but you eat salt, which is the SAME THING!!!!!!!
I think people should be required to pass a basic test on whatever they're making a website about, and if they don't understand the basics of what they're talking about, they should be required to learn.
Time to look up the effects of ingested H2O2 on heavy metal concentrations. Wish me luck.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
steven do you understand the chemical reaction mechanism by which hydrogen peroxide works?
Have you ever heard of oxidation-reduction reactions?
AJ (and god please, please tell me that you're using H2O2 at less than 3% concentration, cause concentrated hydrogen peroxide can cause serious damage to mucous membranes)
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Banna, thousands of people use peroxide both internally and as a mouth rinse daily. I've been doing so myself for months, and the people I know who suggest it have been doing so for years. If it weren't safe, I'd know.
If you must know, I use about 8-10 drops of the food-grade 35% in a quart of water.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I feel the need to point out that while dilute H2O2 has legitimate external uses, taking it internally (especially if insufficiently diluted) is potentially quite dangerous.
quote:Hydrogen peroxide, if spilled on clothing (or other flammable materials), will preferentially evaporate water until the concentration reaches sufficient strength, then clothing will spontaneously ignite. Leather generally contains metal ions from the tanning process and will often catch fire almost immediately.
Cool! Yet another "Hey honey! Watch THIS!" moment I need to experience!
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I'm having similar luck with Hydrogen Peroxide as a treatment. I've found a couple warnings that high concentration H2O2 is dangerous, and several quack pages about the magic of Oxygen, which use lots of completely incorrect science to describe how H2O2 will cure you of everything and make your house turn into gold.
Anyone familiar with any medical studies on H2O2 as an internal heavy metal treatment? I had no luck searching the NiH database or various other health websites.
It's tough to find good information.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
steven I repeat... regardless of whether it is safe or not...do you understand the chemical reaction mechanism by which hydrogen peroxide works?
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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why wouldn't you care? OR why don't you care? If it improves your health don't you care about how it works?
Hydrogen peroxide is chemically structured as
H-O-O-H each oxygen molecule has a -1 electric charge and each hydrogen molecule has a +1 electric charge.
The way hydrogen peroxide works, is that it is called an "oxidizing agent" It grabs electrons from its surroundings and breaks apart so that each oxygen will have a -2 electric charge rather than a -1 electric charge.
You don't think that's cool? It kills germs by stealing their electrons.
posted
...and it can incinerate my entire wardrobe by "stealing their electrons," too! How cool is that?
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
again, Primal, it takes one....who even huffs paint? it wasn't until I got out into the world that I discovered that people did such idiotic things.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Papa Janitor: Come on, folks.... You're better than this.
Translated: Primal, you knew I'd come in here sooner or later. Don't make me put you back in "the box."
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
The Hamburgler is by boy! So, by relation H2O2 is also my boy, which I fully support because I can use it to disinfect my scrapes and it can fuel my rocket engines Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Both vitamin B-12 and vitamin C do share one thing, though. They are destroyed by cooking.
Not true. Vitamin C breaks down rapidly at temperatures greater than 100°C but B12 does not.
B12 is only available from animal and bacterial sources. It is not accessable in common plant foods unless they have been fermented.
Vitamin C is widely available in a large variety of plants include most fruits an vegetables. The best sources for vitamin C are raw fruits. Although it breaks down rapidly at high temperatures, it is reasonably well preserved in dried fruits.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Peroxide worked for a guy I know of who used to work in the mining industry. He had 4 times the lethal limit of lead and cadmium in his body, and was told by his doctor that he had two weeks to live. He was sleeping 22 hours a day, and had other very unpleasant symptoms. He started taking peroxide, and 3 days later his symptoms started showing noticeable improvement.
I don't think an intervention that saved someone from imminent death is necessarily a good preventive measure.
Rivka and I had an extensive discussion on oxygenated water and carbonated drinks and their effects on the blood one time. I'm having a hard time imagining what peroxide would do.
Anyway, I found out I suffered form orthorexia nervosa a few years ago. It's not really an official diagnosis yet, but I think it might be good to look into. Cutting stuff out of one's diet because of symptoms other people are experiencing, well... how do I say this... I'm glad I don't do that anymore.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: why wouldn't you care? OR why don't you care? If it improves your health don't you care about how it works?
Hydrogen peroxide is chemically structured as
H-O-O-H each oxygen molecule has a -1 electric charge and each hydrogen molecule has a +1 electric charge.
The way hydrogen peroxide works, is that it is called an "oxidizing agent" It grabs electrons from its surroundings and breaks apart so that each oxygen will have a -2 electric charge rather than a -1 electric charge.
You don't think that's cool? It kills germs by stealing their electrons.
AJ
Hydrogen peroxide is even weirder than that. It can act as either a reducing agent or an oxidizing agent depending on the pH. Under acidic conditions, it will oxidize inorganic species but at high pH it will reduce the same species. When it acts as a reducing agent, Oxygen gas is released.
The bubbling that people commonly associate with hydrogen peroxide can be caused either by a reduction reaction of thermal decomposition. Where as bacterial killing is usually the result of oxidation. So if the H2O2 is bubbling, you probably aren't killing anything.
Concentrated hydrogen peroxide (~>30%) is very unstable at room temperature. Unless you are storing it in a refrigerator it will break down in less than 24 hours leaving you with very dilute hydrogen peroxide.
As an antisceptic, hydrogen peroxide is relatively ineffective. It is basically useless against plaque. Gargling with dilute hydrogen peroxide has no demonstrable effect on plaque or other common oral microbiota.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Rabbit I was trying to keep it in very non-technical terms. H2O2 is darn cool.
But, I'm pretty sure even in its reducing mode it does kill things, even if it is just cellular tissue, which means it's as likely to kill a good cell as a bad cell but I wasn't going to go there.
(And yes, we have concentrated H2O2 that we keep in our lab fridge, and I have to routinely work with a 10% solution diluted down from the refrigerated concentrate and that stuff is soo nasty...)
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but that's just the Rocket Scientist in me
