quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: So where does that leave porn where men are the objects?
You know what, men and women ARE different. There are different standards for each, and there should be. If your a guy who wants to go and do gay porn, well, that's on you. But if you're some teenage girl who gets convinced to do one of these videos, well, you're being exploited. Double standard, sure. But that's no reason to defend pornography.
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I've got to disagree with you there. Just because men and women are different (and I do think that the differences are much more important than is currently popular to believe) doesn't mean that we should have different standards.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: You agree huh? Hope you never see your daughter one day masturbating on camera on an infomercial. Hell, at the way things are progressing, it will be hardcore sex right there on boradcast TV. But I'm the bad guy for despising it.
That's rather presumptuous to say my exact wants are a wife and a child, isn't it? You just assumed an entire chapter of my life I've yet to want or live through.
Would I mind? Um, unless she was tricked into it or they used her image without her consent, then no. I'm not her, and even though she'd be my daughter, it's her body to do whatever she wants with. Unlike many parents, I see no reason to force my beliefs, morals, or limits on my daughter. That tends to do harm, you know.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Not hurting anyone, huh? You wanna think about that? The argument can be made that it's hurting plenty of people. First, the girls, many of whom are underage, who ARE being exploited, regardless of your denial. Second, the people whose souls are numbed by this garbage, some of whom become addicted to it like a drug. Then there are all the women who are looked at like objects by more and more men (and women) because of this pornography-obsessed society. And these women go on to act like tramps because that's what is expected of them.
Can you provide evidence for any of these statements? Especially the "many of whom are underage part" As far as I know of, underage pornography is already quite illegal. Therefore, this doesn't fall under the "don't legislate it because it is not hurting anyone" argument. We agree that underage pornography is bad, but that is already illegal so it is not even a part of this issue.
As far as the "and these women go on to act like tramps because that's what is expected of them." I have a hard time seeing where you get this. At the most, they are getting the message that it is not the end of the world if people are promiscuous. Nevertheless, the idea that women should be more chaste than men is still huge in our society, despite your arguments to the contrary.
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How is it a slippery slope? Let's slope it the other way. It starts out that pornography is this underground thing that becomes legally recognized in spite of the public's disgust at it. 40 years later, nsomething just barely short of hardcore explicit pornography is being advertised all night on basic cable, 2 minute spots on broadcast TV, and a mere slap on the wrist for the producer convicted of filming a minor for one of the videos. Meanwhile, hardcore porn, beastiality, piss and sh** and simulated rape and computer generated images of children is being sold for billions of dollars each year in this country. "BUT WE GOTTA KEEP IT LEGAL!! IT'S A RIGHT!!!"
posted
So a 21 year old guy who does porn and a 21 year old girl who does porn aren't equal? The girl is automatically naive and being exploited and the guy is making a fair choice?
Resh, I'm not defending porn. I'm saying you are arguing poorly and rashly. You're setting up double standards that are just as harmful to "society" as the porn you decry.
If a girl is exploited when she chooses to make porn, so is a guy. As I understand it, the vast majority of porn is made my consenting adults. I wish it didn't exist, but they have the right to make it. It's not underage or teen girls, by and large, because that's already illegal.
The exploitation occurs when a woman is made an object of lust. And so it is for a man. There's no "that's different" about it.
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: Would I mind? Um, unless she was tricked into it or they used her image without her consent, then no. I'm not her, and even though she'd be my daughter, it's her body to do whatever she wants with. Unlike many parents, I see no reason to force my beliefs, morals, or limits on my daughter. That tends to do harm, you know.
Limits, morals, and beliefs tend to do harm? If you think about that for more than a nanosecond, you will see how ridiculous that is.
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If you read his post closely, you'll see that he's saying that forcing those things on your daughter tends to do harm.
Which, in many ways is true, although I suspect that I would disagree with him for much of what he considers "forcing" it on children.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: How is it a slippery slope? Let's slope it the other way. It starts out that pornography is this underground thing that becomes legally recognized in spite of the public's disgust at it. 40 years later, nsomething just barely short of hardcore explicit pornography is being advertised all night on basic cable, 2 minute spots on broadcast TV,
Whoa. What tv are you watching? I'm up late all the time, have a tv with a decent number of cable channels, and I've never seen this. I gotta wonder if you're looking for it, because it's not as hard to avoid as you present.
quote:Meanwhile, hardcore porn, beastiality, piss and sh** and simulated rape and computer generated images of children is being sold for billions of dollars each year in this country. "BUT WE GOTTA KEEP IT LEGAL!! IT'S A RIGHT!!!"
*shrug* It is. I don't like it, but it is. And I'd rather people be allowed to make stuff like that than civil rights be restricted so much. If you can convince people to give it up, power to you.
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How is this double standard as harmful as the pornographic and promiscuous culture we now experience that the double standard initially prevented from developing? I can't comprehend how you guys want to defend pornography. It's not a right! How is it a right? You guys have been seduced by this filth, or brainwashed by its promoters, or I don't know what. How can you consider yourself a good person when you support or defend this garbage? I'm not saying you're not good people, I just don't understand it.
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: Would I mind? Um, unless she was tricked into it or they used her image without her consent, then no. I'm not her, and even though she'd be my daughter, it's her body to do whatever she wants with. Unlike many parents, I see no reason to force my beliefs, morals, or limits on my daughter. That tends to do harm, you know.
Limits, morals, and beliefs tend to do harm? If you think about that for more than a nanosecond, you will see how ridiculous that is.
Of course limits, morals, and beliefs don't do harm. You conveniently left off the qualifier that forcing my limits, morals, and beliefs causes harm.
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Well, how does a son or daughter experience limits and morals without them being forced upon him or her? Do you just provide an array of index cards with all these tips for living life, and then leave him to pick which ones he likes?
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quote:Whoa. What tv are you watching? I'm up late all the time, have a tv with a decent number of cable channels, and I've never seen this. I gotta wonder if you're looking for it, because it's not as hard to avoid as you present.
Granted, I don't know much about pornography standards, but for me, those Girls Gone Wild commercials shown on Comedy Central are more pornographic than I ever want to see.
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Well, how does a son or daughter experience limits and morals without them being forced upon him or her? Do you just provide an array of index cards with all these tips for living life, and then leave him to pick which ones he likes?
You bring them up to believe in basic moral guidelines: killing is wrong, being generous is right, etc. However, you let them decide what religion is best for them. You give them an option to believe in something else. How can you not give your children a choice? You're raising people, not clones.
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quote:Whoa. What tv are you watching? I'm up late all the time, have a tv with a decent number of cable channels, and I've never seen this. I gotta wonder if you're looking for it, because it's not as hard to avoid as you present.
Granted, I don't know much about pornography standards, but for me, those Girls Gone Wild commercials shown on Comedy Central are more pornographic than I ever want to see.
Yeah. Every night at 2 a.m. (mountain time) on Comedy Central. It's porno time. Completely naked girls, masterbating, going down on each other, all that stuff. There are strategically placed logos, but barely anything is left to the imagination. Nothing like it on TV ten years ago. And what was on ten years ago was nothing like what was on twenty years ago. Hitoshi and the rest, you can make your theoretical slippery slpoe argument, that if we outlaw pornography, ten years from now we will not have any right to expression at all anymore, but look at the real one that HAS happened. And it's easy to imagine where it will go.
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: Would I mind? Um, unless she was tricked into it or they used her image without her consent, then no. I'm not her, and even though she'd be my daughter, it's her body to do whatever she wants with. Unlike many parents, I see no reason to force my beliefs, morals, or limits on my daughter. That tends to do harm, you know.
Limits, morals, and beliefs tend to do harm? If you think about that for more than a nanosecond, you will see how ridiculous that is.
Of course limits, morals, and beliefs don't do harm. You conveniently left off the qualifier that forcing my limits, morals, and beliefs causes harm.
What exactly do you mean by forcing here? I agree with mph on this. The general idea of what you said is something I agree with, but I suspect that our ideas of what constitutes forcing our morals on someone differs.
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quote:Of course limits, morals, and beliefs don't do harm. You conveniently left off the qualifier that forcing my limits, morals, and beliefs causes harm.
Hitoshi, I have little respect for much of biggle's position and none for his manner of presenting it in this thread, but your equating "minding" whether parents see their child in such a video with "forcing" limits and morals on the child is quite insulting.
biggle is simply fulfilling all of our expectations for him by acting the ass. I'd appreciate it if the responses to him could refrain from catching other people in the crossfire.
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: You bring them up to believe in basic moral guidelines: killing is wrong, being generous is right, etc. However, you let them decide what religion is best for them. You give them an option to believe in something else. How can you not give your children a choice? You're raising people, not clones.
You want clones, let the culture raise your children. Because that's what happens if you don't do it. Let them figure it out for themselves? Not gonna happen. Someones gonna do it, and it's probably going to be MTV. Look at society. We have a whole genration of teenagers who were raised by permissive parents. You think everything is turning out swell, I guess.
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quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: [qb] Would I mind? Um, unless she was tricked into it or they used her image without her consent, then no. I'm not her, and even though she'd be my daughter, it's her body to do whatever she wants with. Unlike many parents, I see no reason to force my beliefs, morals, or limits on my daughter. That tends to do harm, you know.
Limits, morals, and beliefs tend to do harm? If you think about that for more than a nanosecond, you will see how ridiculous that is.
Of course limits, morals, and beliefs don't do harm. You conveniently left off the qualifier that forcing my limits, morals, and beliefs causes harm.
What exactly do you mean by forcing here? I agree with mph on this. The general idea of what you said is something I agree with, but I suspect that our ideas of what constitutes forcing our morals on someone differs.
By forcing, I mean, not allowing them to believe anything different than what you do. You can bring your children up to believe as you do; that's not what I'm against. What I am against, however, is when parents do not allow their children to act in any way they see as differing from their own moral compass when they're adults, or allow them to believe differently than they do.
Dag: I did not mean to imply that minding seeing your daughter doing that meant you were forcing your beliefs on her; that statement was independent and targeted towards biggle, not people who mind. I can see how people would mind. What bothers me is when they decide they know what's best for their grown, adult child and trying to force their beliefs on them still.
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posted
I'm always hearing about how I present myself. I always come across as an ass, as the morally righteous one, holier-than-thou. But I swear, I am always the one on the defensive. Always, in every thread, it's me against everyone else. Even when I have a like minded person, like mph in this one, I'm still without allies.
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quote:I'm always hearing about how I present myself.
You should listen.
quote:I am always the one on the defensive.
You were not on the defensive when you started this thread. That post was markedly offensive (in both meanings of the word).
Also, you and I are not like minded, despite the fact that I don't disagree with everything you've said.
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quote: by me: Not hurting anyone, huh? You wanna think about that? The argument can be made that it's hurting plenty of people. First, the girls, many of whom are underage, who ARE being exploited, regardless of your denial. Second, the people whose souls are numbed by this garbage, some of whom become addicted to it like a drug. Then there are all the women who are looked at like objects by more and more men (and women) because of this pornography-obsessed society. And these women go on to act like tramps because that's what is expected of them.
Is this me acting like an ass? How about
quote: I can't comprehend how you guys want to defend pornography. It's not a right! How is it a right? You guys have been seduced by this filth, or brainwashed by its promoters, or I don't know what. How can you consider yourself a good person when you support or defend this garbage? I'm not saying you're not good people, I just don't understand it...
If that's what you're talking about, then you've got a point. But what about MY points? How is it a right? How are they not exploited? How about almost any issue I try to address on these boards, and the overwhelming response to my arguments are :"You're a jerk!" How about you think not about how I'm saying it, and instead think about WHAT I'm saying.
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quote:How about you think not about how I'm saying it, and instead think about WHAT I'm saying.
It's hard to hear what you're saying when my ears are ringing from how you said it.
The truth of the matter is that until you learn how to discuss things in a civil manner, people will not take you (or your points) seriously.
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quote:I'm always hearing about how I present myself.
You should listen.
I do listen.
quote:
quote:I am always the one on the defensive.
You were not on the defensive when you started this thread. That post was markedly offensive (in both meanings of the word).
Also, you and I are not like minded, despite the fact that I don't disagree with everything you've said.
Here's my first post:
quote:It's like Girls Gone Wild is the driving force behind our culture now. And if you watch those videos (I've watched a few), they're porn. That's all it is, and it seem like girls feel like that is what they have to be now. Porn stars. Go get a tattoo on your lower back and perform sexual acts for anyone who asks. It's depressing.
Who was that offensive to? Pornographers? The GGW guy? However, the very first response from you was "Aren't you a hypocrite?"
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I think your problem might be that you're not actually reading other peoples responses to you. Or maybe you do read them, but you have a convenient little "edit" button somewhere in your head that doesnt allow you to see the reasoned, intelligent reponses to your questions.
It's a convienant button to have when you arent actually looking to get into a discussion, but rather are looking to reread your own posts over and over again to remind yourself of how smart and witty you are and how much of a martyr you are in the cause of spreading enlightenment to the ignorant masses.
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Let's talk about the use of the word offensive as opposed to defensive, as that is what brought the word up.
In that post you are not defending yourself against anything. Instead, you are attacking A) GGW videos B) girls who are in those videos and C) girls with tattoos on their lower backs.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Not hurting anyone, huh? You wanna think about that? The argument can be made that it's hurting plenty of people. First, the girls, many of whom are underage, who ARE being exploited, regardless of your denial.
Underage girls aren't exploited in legal porn, because it's illegal.
quote:And these women go on to act like tramps because that's what is expected of them.
Calling women tramps gets you on my immediate bad side. It's an insult, not a discriptor. You might not like what they do, but you have no right to pass judgement on them like that.
quote: I can't comprehend how you guys want to defend pornography. It's not a right! How is it a right?
People are allowed to do what they wish with their bodies. That includes making money.
quote:You guys have been seduced by this filth, or brainwashed by its promoters, or I don't know what.
I hate porn.
quote:How can you consider yourself a good person when you support or defend this garbage?
You don't get to pass judgement on me, either.
quote:But what about MY points? How is it a right? How are they not exploited?
They chose to make it.
quote:How about almost any issue I try to address on these boards, and the overwhelming response to my arguments are: "You're a jerk!" How about you think not about how I'm saying it, and instead think about WHAT I'm saying.
The mode of delivery forms the message just as much as the content.
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quote:How about you think not about how I'm saying it, and instead think about WHAT I'm saying.
It's hard to hear what you're saying when my ears are ringing from how you said it.
The truth of the matter is that until you learn how to discuss things in a civil manner, people will not take you (or your points) seriously.
People who can't look any deeper into a persons argument than the bare surface will not take me or my points seriously.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the only people who engage me online are people who 1) disagree with me, and 2) are at varying degrees of ineptness in debate and critical thinking. Because those who do have some thinking skills either already agree with me recognize my arguments for what they are and begin to agree with me.
Alright, now that is me being an ass. For fun, I would like to see if you can argue the points I made regardless of how they were presented. Keep in mind I don't believe what I said.
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I don't understand that bit, either, porter. Why does getting a tattoo on *gasp!* the lower back automatically mean a girl will sleep with a lot of people? I'm missing the causal link here.
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By my last post, you may have recognized that I have gotten extremely bored with this. As always, I really hope that most of you don't actually think I take much of this very seriously. The issues, sure. But the little verbal sparring that occurs, all in good fun. See you guys later.
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quote:People who can't look any deeper into a persons argument than the bare surface will not take me or my points seriously.
I think the way you choose to present your arguments says an awful lot about you. And yes, it makes us all less likely to tak you seriously.
quote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the only people who engage me online are people who 1) disagree with me, and 2) are at varying degrees of ineptness in debate and critical thinking. Because those who do have some thinking skills either already agree with me recognize my arguments for what they are and begin to agree with me.
Absolutely untrue.
quote: For fun, I would like to see if you can argue the points I made regardless of how they were presented.
While it might be fun for you, letting you be rude without any consequences, it wouldn't be fun for anybody else. No thank you.
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quote:But what about MY points? How is it a right? How are they not exploited?
They chose to make it.
Just because somebody did something willingly doesn't mean that they weren't exploited.
True. But I understood Resh's question to mean that any and all women who make porn are being exploited. Some are, I'm sure, even the ones who do it willingly. But I doubt all of them are. Sorry for not clarifying.
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: I don't understand that bit, either, porter. Why does getting a tattoo on *gasp!* the lower back automatically mean a girl will sleep with a lot of people? I'm missing the causal link here.
I don't know. I could only guess, but those guesses would be far too offensive for me to feel comfortable making here.
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Regarding your points, it all boils down to: their body, their rights. They can do whatever they want with their body, and you have no right to stop them, just as no one has a right to force you to not do something with yours.
While you can argue until you're blue in the face that society's on the fast track to destruction, it doesn't change the fact that people have a right to use their body for purposes that you may or may not agree with.
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quote:While you can argue until you're blue in the face that society's on the fast track to destruction, it doesn't change the fact that people have a right to use their body for purposes that you may or may not agree with.
As is apparent from his posts, he does not recognize that as a right. Because of this, you yourself could talk about rights until you're blue in the face and it won't persuade him.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Because of this, you yourself could talk about rights until you're blue in the face and it won't persuade him.
Good point. I'm going to save my breath, then. Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
One of the beautiful things about forums is never having to encounter the people on them in real life.
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That's true, erosomniac. For instance, if you encountered me in real life, it wouldn't be the guy you meet here. I don't think this is so much my true self as it is an alter ego. I would be horrified to find I came across this way in real life. Also, I find that the only time I come around here is when I'm drinking. And I seem to get more and more obnoxious the drunker I get.
Still can spell, though.
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quote:I don't think this is so much my true self as it is an alter ego. I would be horrified to find I came across this way in real life.
So you're saying your this obnoxious on purpose?!?!
Then knock it off.
I'm not doing it on purpose. I honestly don't know why I come across as obnoxious, but I know that I find many of the things you guys say really obnoxious too and I don't think you mean it either. You all seem as oblivious as I do.
Like when erosmo said "keep making backpedaling excuses for yourself, Resh; you're not fooling anyone." I found that annoying and obnoxious. I don't know if that was meant to annoy me or not. If it was, great, good job, but if it wasn't, then I was the one who took it wrong and that's my problem, not erosmos.
(Of course, not everyone seems that way. Some people seem really nice always.)
So I think it's more the medium than anything else. Well, the message too. You (or I) read something you disagree with and think is stupid, and so you form a negative opinion of that person. I mean, what else is there to go on? Just written words.
And I think our tendency is to take things that people say more negatively than we should when we are in disagreent. Seriously, tell me you don't do that with your girlfriend or boyfriend or spouse when you're arguing.
And before you know it, you really are trying to egg someone on and annoy him, or at least dismantle his arguments. And then it's just a big hatefest.
Well, I recognize that, and so I generally avoid actually feeling a negative way about any of you. Sometimes if someone is obviously not a very clear thinker and I don't feel like wasting my time, I just go for the easy put-downs, and I'm not proud of that. I know there are actual people on the other ends of your words, but no one can really humanize the letters in the little boxes. If you get mad or annoyed, you're kinda only doing it to yourself.
And so I wasn't really backtracking there, erosmo. I really do only come here when I'm bored and drinking alone, which is not too often, and since I've been buried under about three feet of snow for the last two days (Fort Collins, Colorado), I been running out of ways to amuse myself. I mean, I literally have not walked outside my house since Tuesday evening. So I appreciate the engaging convos. My advice to some of you: lighten up.
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