quote:I'm always hearing about how I present myself. I always come across as an ass, as the morally righteous one, holier-than-thou. But I swear, I am always the one on the defensive. Always, in every thread, it's me against everyone else. Even when I have a like minded person, like mph in this one, I'm still without allies.
I think this may be your problem: it's often you "against" everyone else, even when there are people who agree with you, precisely because you present yourself (and, more importantly, your arguments) very badly.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Erotica is just porn that you personally find acceptable, in the same sense that a slut is someone who has more sexual partners than you approve of.
The difference between sexual abstinance and repression is pretty much the same thing.
A very cogent point, actually; but I think I would offer another distinction. Namely, abstinence is what you, yourself, do not do; but repression is what you force other people not to do.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I would also like to be present when CT, Chris and KMboots compare libraries.
I combat verbal cultural inequities by calling men "boys" and the promiscuous boys "sluts". Makes me feel all tingly and righteous.
Porter, your posts have been brilliant examples of... well... how to express an opinion many here do not share without disrespect to yourself or others. Your wife also rocks (not that it has anything to do with this thread, just that seeing you here reminded me I've missed her recently).
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Namely, abstinence is what you, yourself, do not do; but repression is what you force other people not to do.
That definition does not cover the cases where I have been accused of being sexually repressed, since nobody is forcing it on me.
Well, I suppose one could argue that your parents sexually repressed you, and 'you are repressed' is just shorthand. But I'm not going to do so, since I don't think such repression actually works very well. So, fair enough, you have my permission to tell such people they are mistaken. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Help help, I'm being repressed! My two cents: Saying that women were more proper 'back then' is like saying that there were no gays 'back then.' There were women who behaved as one would deem 'proper,' there were women who behaved 'improperly' and no one knew about it, there were women who behaved 'improperly' and it was known about. I can as good as guarantee you that more people behaved improperly than you would think. They just don't have to hide it anymore.
By the way, I'm glad to be one of those non-slutty unattractive girls for ya. Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: Namely, abstinence is what you, yourself, do not do; but repression is what you force other people not to do.
I think repression can be both internal and/or external. I see repression as making somebody less comfortable with their own sexuality. I see abstinance as refraining from sex. Repression could lead to abstinance, but abstinance does not necessitate repression.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Less comfortable to a degree where such repression causes phobias, overreactions to sexual impulses, fear of intimacy, etc.
I like Amanecer's definition, vague though it has to be -- it would vary from person to person, as nearly everything having to do with sexuality must. I honor those who remain abstinent themselves through personal responsibility or dedication to an ideal, but I think that abstinence due to fear of sex -- planted there by "sex is evil" type teachings -- can lead to psychological problems.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Instead of "sex is evil," how about "sex outside of marriage is wrong." Do you think that can that lead to problems?
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Instead of "sex is evil," how about "sex outside of marriage is wrong." Do you think that can that lead to problems?
Depends on the people involved.
Posts: 413 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I think sexual relationships between people are -- for most of us -- complicated, messy, fraught with unexpected events and responses, and prone to misunderstandings. They are also often warm, nurturing, extemely pleasurable, and life-affirming.
Add in the potential for (covert and overt) abuse, and that's a powerful mix for anyone not very firm and sturdy in him- or herself to handle. Not for kids, and not for people who are not in clearly delineated relationships. For many people, that means marriage. I myself would leave open the possibility that there are other clearly delineated relationships that would suffice for others, though -- but I understand that other sensible people might not agree.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: That's recursion. Macros are abstraction.
I was under the impression that LISP was an entirely recursive language. I knew a guy that, after learning and enjoying the language, said, completely unpremeditatedly, "I think I'm starting to think recursively now. Think about that."
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I'd just like to point out that, as far as I understand it, no one is here using the proper definition of repression-- the unconscious channeling of sexual urges into other activities... but neither am I a psychological expert, so grain of salt and all that.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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How about the conscious channeling of sexual urges into other activities? 'Cuz I've done that plenty in my life.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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"Instead of "sex is evil," how about "sex outside of marriage is wrong." Do you think that can that lead to problems? "
Sure. I disagree with just about any flat statement like that. If that's all you teach, and your child has premarital sex anyway and the sky doesn't fall, he or she might start to disregard your other teachings. Better to teach the principals behind the idea so your child understands why it's so important.
"Sex always has consequences, and you are responsible for everything you do."
I can teach that with no hesitation at all.
"Respect others, at all times."
Also an excellent message.
"Giving into your impulses without regard for the outcome is always wrong."
Lay down that basis, and then when you explain that you believe sex outside of marriage is needlessly risky, disrespectful of your partner, and irresponsible, your child will understand what you mean and why. Then, if later on he or she engages in premarital sex anyway, it will (hopefully) be with open eyes, with a strong sense of responsibility, and with care for what may happen as a result.
That's what I want from my children.
"How about the conscious channeling of sexual urges into other activities? 'Cuz I've done that plenty in my life."
Sure, go for it. I suspect most people have done that at times, celibate or not. And self-control is a worthy goal no matter who you are.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:If that's all you teach, and your child has premarital sex anyway and the sky doesn't fall, he or she might start to disregard your other teachings.
posted
Worse scenario, Chris, because sexual behavior is quite personal, is that they feel that they are wrong as people. This *feels good* and they *want* it so therefore there must be something horribly wrong with them for so doing. I suspect that much worse than having your kids question your wisdom is having them think you'd hate them if you really knew them.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: How about the conscious channeling of sexual urges into other activities? 'Cuz I've done that plenty in my life.
I believe that's just called "distracting yourself" and I don't know of any particular issues with it, per se Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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"Hmm. I just had premarital sex and it doesn't seem to have been as wrong as my parents said it was. Actually, it was kinda fun. Maybe they were a little too extreme on that no-drugs thing, too..."
or
"I did something wrong and it felt great. I must be a bad person. I can't ever tell my parents because they'll know I did something wrong, so I better start keeping secrets from them now. No one caught me, everything's cool, so I guess as long as I don't get caught I can do whatever I want."
OK, extreme. But as soon as someone discovers that the world isn't as black and white as they've been told, it's only natural to start wondering about other black-and-white statements you might have made.
This has been backed up by the studies made of abstinence-only sex ed. Teaching abstinence as the only method of birth control resulted in teens waiting a bit longer to have sex, but then having a larger percentage of unprotected sex than teens that were taught more comprehensive sex ed.
A responsible sex life -- which in the eyes of you and many other people means a married sex life -- should be the ideal to always strive for. I just advocate teaching why over issuing declarations.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: "I must be a bad person."
I just want to say that I have seen this particular attitude wreak a lot of havoc. I was more talking about that than any permissiveness associated with it.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
BTW, I agree with much of what you've said, Chris. I believe that teaching somebody why something is wrong is much more effective than just telling them that it's wrong.
I'm very glad that I was taught why extramarital sex was wrong, as it helped me to live my life that way.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
This assumes that a teen dealing with peer pressure and hormones might have that belief, yes. Is that an unrealistic assumption?
I propose teaching that sex always requires respect and responsibility. That, to me, addresses many more social problems than if I taught only that "premarital sex is always wrong", especially since the ideal of marital sex fits nicely into it.
(Posted before reading your last response, BTW)
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:But what about MY points? How is it a right? How are they not exploited? How about almost any issue I try to address on these boards, and the overwhelming response to my arguments are :"You're a jerk!" How about you think not about how I'm saying it, and instead think about WHAT I'm saying.
I'll take a gander at this. The two biggest arguments against porn that I hear is that woman are exploited and objectified. *I am going to leave my personal experience off to the side of this post that most people I have known who like porn are actually woman. That could be a fluke.*
I feel the exploitation issue has already been exhaustively dealt with in this thread. Child porn is illegal. We are talking about adult porn. While it is true that adults can be exploited, they are also responsible for their decisions.
If they are being exploited, then there is probably some other illegal activity going on like drug addiction. If it is social, like poverty, then religious organizations, family, concerned citizens, and support groups need to step up to the plate.
I imagine many woman feel empowered. How many industries out there pay women more then men?
I will focus on "objectifying" women. My response is, "so what?" We objectify everything. It is how our brains codify information. We reduce everything, including people, into dehumanizing objects and roles so that we can better communicate and understand each other.
We do it in families, religion, work, school, EVERYTHING. My wife is my son's "mom." She is my "wife." I am "dad." I was once an "Elder" for the LDS church.
Now I am "inactive" maybe even "apostate." You might be a "teacher" or "nurse" or "stay at home mom." I am a "graduate." I am an "employee" with a "boss." This list goes on...and it is not bad.
If I only ever looked at H. as my son's mom...if that is the only role I saw her in...if that was her complete identity to me, then I would be dehumanizing her. That would be sick.
Objectifying people is not bad; not being able to recognize when you objectify someone and not being able to stop objectifying someone...that is bad. It is damaging. There is a time to see her as T's mom and a time to view her as my lover.
When we are intimate there are times when I want to be objectified. Our relationship is not founded on objectifying each other sexually. I know we will age. We have friendship and common goals. Lots of times I want the intimacy and love. But darn it, sometimes appreciating her like that (and being appreciated like that) makes both of us feel better.
My name and actions say more about me than any role I assume or get assigned. I only mind being objectified if those close to me can't see past the objectification.
If people want to objectify sex via DVD or cable tv, what is the big deal? We objectify people, why not sex? If a woman loves porn and can only see men as porn objects, then she has a problem. But if someone objectifies men to satisfy an urge or have fun for a moment, as long as they can step away from that, I don't care.
It doesn't involve me. Consenting adults are consenting adults. I am much more leery of men who consistently leer at woman and only views them as sex objects then I am of someone watching late night cable TV.
I do see a distinction.
I view people who only see women as sex objects at all times in much the same way I view an old boss who viewed everyone as his subordinate employee--even after you quite or were off work. Both types of people are the same type of ass.
I understand what you are saying Reshpeckobiggle, I just don't buy it. As a parent I am concerned about how sexualized our music and culture is. I fear T. might not have as much time in innocence as I would like him to have. I'm sure I am not the first parent to feel this way or the last, so I am going to focus on my sphere of influence when he is developing, and I will trust and accept him as he finds his own identity.
I'm certainly not going to judge every girl with a tattoo on her back like you do. That would be an example were someone cannot step away from their objectification--just like that leering man and boss.
EDIT to change LSD to LDS . I would also like to add that I am part of the 5%.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:If that's all you teach, and your child has premarital sex anyway and the sky doesn't fall, he or she might start to disregard your other teachings
Although if you're religious and what you've taught is 'do that and you'll go to hell when you die' the kid would have to be pretty stupid to figure that the sky hadn't fallen, since they'd think it was coming. Of course that could easily instead lead to them saying "I'm on my way to hell now, in for a dime etc" and start doing lots of other bad things.
Also I have to respectfully disagree about the erotica/porn being the same thing. As I understand it erotica is porn that focuses on more gentle, emotional, and stylised in a sort of 'beautiful' way and 'porn' is mostly used to refer to all the other porn. I'd explain better but I've got to do something else so I'll just phrase it like this -
Erotica - making love to a beautiful woman that you possibly love on the beach in a tropical paradise under the wonderful romantic starlight.
Porn - anything else less beautiful and romantic, all the way down to the worst of it. If you want a one liner that characterises it by gross generalisation - Shagging some stupid slut's brain's out with your massive wang.
And yes, wang was not the word I would have chosen were this not really a PG style place. And I hope that sentence did not cross any taste lines!
posted
OR, the kid could have sex, and you've told them that it's a horrible evil thing, and they could start to hate themselves and think that they're terrible people and become horribly depressed and self-destructive. Whether or not they continue to have sex, they're going to be miserable because of what you've taught them. Maybe they'll think they're less valid as people.
quote:Originally posted by pH: OR, the kid could have sex, and you've told them that it's a horrible evil thing, and they could start to hate themselves and think that they're terrible people and become horribly depressed and self-destructive. Whether or not they continue to have sex, they're going to be miserable because of what you've taught them. Maybe they'll think they're less valid as people.
-pH
From personal experience (which I'm not going to go into, so please don't ask), I second his statement.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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How about both can happen? When you establish something, i.e, sex, as being bad then the psyche of the person whom you've raised will have two major options:
a) It is bad, I am bad. b) It is not bad, my parents are wrong; what do they know?
There will, of course, be a blend of the two options. Both are not healthy. The first is the least healthy, because it will lead to complex, psychological issues which may manifest in many ways. The second is also not good, because the parental guidance will also include many useful and important bits of information like, say, believe in yourself, don't do drugs, et cetra.
The concomitant guilt and shame that comes with sexual issues is one of the leading causes of anxiety and depression in people, I suspect.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Andrew W: Also I have to respectfully disagree about the erotica/porn being the same thing. As I understand it erotica is porn that focuses on more gentle, emotional, and stylised in a sort of 'beautiful' way and 'porn' is mostly used to refer to all the other porn.
Although this is the way most people use the word 'erotica', that just tells us what kind of porn people feel comfortable to admit approving of : The softcore, romantic kind. And yet somehow the market for violent, hardcore stuff is much larger, at any rate on the Internet - presumably because there are some restrictions on what can be printed.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Erotica is just porn that you personally find acceptable, in the same sense that a slut is someone who has more sexusal partners than you approve of.
Winner.
Exactly, just as a slut, or the b word, is often used in place of, "woman who won't, or will no longer have sex with me". Ridiculous. The idea that all of a society disapproved of porn or the vast majority of society at one time did is patently absurd, the enormous usage and popularity of brothels, and the enormous growth rate of playboy upon it debut can attest to the reality which is, privately the vast majority of people enjoyed or used it, but presented a public veneer of "moral decency" for public consumption which of course did not reflect their personal reality.
The reality is, we've always been interested in sex in its many forms, but sexual mores move back in forth in how public this attraction can be, not in the actual rates of attraction in the first place. For instance, although porn is far more in the public eye than ever before, the usage of prostitutes and brothels is far less socially acceptable than in the days before porn videos, dvd's, websites and the like. The means of access have changed, the actual interest, has not for the most part, beyond women gaining greater sexual freedom which is perfectly fine and acceptable as long as responsibility walks hand in hand with such freedom.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Am I correct in thinking that the Japanese have a similar culture as we used to have, that open displays of sexuality are frowned upon, while anything goes in private? (As opposed to our culture where porn = acceptable, prostitutes = icky).
It's probably more complex than that, but I wonder if the metaphor can be loosely framed around that discussion.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Phanto: Am I correct in thinking that the Japanese have a similar culture as we used to have, that open displays of sexuality are frowned upon, while anything goes in private? (As opposed to our culture where porn = acceptable, prostitutes = icky).
It's probably more complex than that, but I wonder if the metaphor can be loosely framed around that discussion.
Not really. Japan is compartmentalized and takes things to the extreme: a lot of Japanese porn is horrifying and read in public, sex-related products are very easily obtained and widely advertised (condom & sex toy stores with enormous, personified versions of the products, vending machines for all sorts of bizarre fetishes on the streets), etc. etc.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Am I correct in thinking that the Japanese have a similar culture as we used to have, that open displays of sexuality are frowned upon, while anything goes in private? (As opposed to our culture where porn = acceptable, prostitutes = icky).
It's probably more complex than that, but I wonder if the metaphor can be loosely framed around that discussion./QUOTE]Not really. Japan is compartmentalized and takes things to the extreme: a lot of Japanese porn is horrifying and read in public, sex-related products are very easily obtained and widely advertised (condom & sex toy stores with enormous, personified versions of the products, vending machines for all sorts of bizarre fetishes on the streets), etc. etc.
I've already said this on Hatrack before, but that kind of porn is hardly ever read in public. What you will see is old men reading pornographic comics, and it's only tacitly accepted. The fact that these comics are read in public says more to me about the general Japanese attitudes to public interaction (i.e. there's a lot more of the 'mind my own business' mentality) than about the general populace's attitude towards porn. Japanese people are generally slower to complain about strangers, and would rather just look the other way and forget about it when they get off the train.
And as for the shops, depends where you are. Shibuya, Harajuku, Akihabara, sure. Not so much elsewhere, or outside of Tokyo in my experience.
Every major city has its sleezy areas. Maybe Tokyo's is sleezier. I don't know; I haven't exactly sampled the world's red light districts.
What do you mean by compartmentalized?
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Well...there's porn and there's what I would call erotica.
Erotica is just porn that you personally find acceptable, in the same sense that a slut is someone who has more sexusal partners than you approve of.
For the record, I approve of someone having as many sexual partners as she or he wants, provided that he or she can be good, kind, and honorable to them. However they define that.
My opinions on the difference between porn and erotica are as subjective as my opinions on what is good art. If there is care and artistry and creativity involved in making it, I am likely to consider it erotica. Regardless of the specific acts portrayed. "Crude and vulgar" are not usually trademarks of good art.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:"Crude and vulgar" are not usually trademarks of good art.
Considering how many artists were seen as crude and vulgar in their day, I have a hard time believing this statement.
Even today I am sure there are lots of people who consider Sacha Baron Cohen as a genius because of Borat.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: My opinions on the difference between porn and erotica are as subjective as my opinions on what is good art. If there is care and artistry and creativity involved in making it, I am likely to consider it erotica. Regardless of the specific acts portrayed. "Crude and vulgar" are not usually trademarks of good art.
Well then, that tells us what kind of porn you approve of; it does not establish that the distinction means any more than "this is what kmb approves of".
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Rash: "Sex outside of marriage is wrong" can be one of the leading causes of "Girls-Gone-Wild" debauchery.
The story goes Girl A succumbs to pressure from Boy A and has sex.
Sex before marriage is wrong.
Girl believes that she has done wrong.
It felt good.
She must be a bad person, and begins treating herself as one.
Every boy she meets wants to have sex with her.
Since this is the only affirmation of her existance that she finds, she continues to agree.
Its a cycle of "This is wrong. I get attention I enjoy. I must be wrong, slutty, sinful. I must punish myself. I punish myself by doing wrong, by piling more abuse on my body, by degrading myself more which gets me more attention, which I enjoy, which means I am more wrong. I must punish myself more...." etc etc until they find themselves plastered with a fake smile licking old beer off of another girl on a cheap video.
If you think the women in the good old days were better mannered, you need to do some research. Try listening to "Harper Valley PTA".
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Sometimes people share their views and beliefs and information about themselves in order to get to know other people better and give other people a chance to know them better. Doing so offers trust, and when it is recipricated, social bonds are formed. Such social bonds, sometimes called "friendship," can of great benefit to both parties.
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