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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The Official Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Discussion and Spoiler Thread (Page 0)

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Author Topic: The Official Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Discussion and Spoiler Thread
GaalDornick
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That was a bad idea, IMO. Risk Harry and the rest of the Order's lives just so Snape can seem more evil to Voldemort? Why would Voldemort suspect Snape if he doesn't know when they're transferring Harry? The Order obviously no longer trusts him.
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jebus202
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Pretty dull and depressing for most of it, with an insanely idiotic Gringotts chapter, and cheesy but admittedly entertaining ending.
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Seatarsprayan
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Yah, Mad-Eye died and George lost an ear all to *possibly* help Snape's cover...
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ElJay
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Snape couldn't have found out when they were moving Harry from Dumbledore, because Dumbledore didn't know. He was dead, remember? Snape was talking to his portrait in the headmaster's office, which can consult and give advice, but would have had no way of knowing information from the Order. He had to have found out from Mundungus.
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erosomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
That was a bad idea, IMO. Risk Harry and the rest of the Order's lives just so Snape can seem more evil to Voldemort? Why would Voldemort suspect Snape if he doesn't know when they're transferring Harry? The Order obviously no longer trusts him.

Voldemort demonstrates several times how he feels about his minions who are no longer useful to him and/or have failed him.

I'm fairly certain he would have looked at an end to Snape's inside information as the end of his usefulness.

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
That was a bad idea, IMO. Risk Harry and the rest of the Order's lives just so Snape can seem more evil to Voldemort? Why would Voldemort suspect Snape if he doesn't know when they're transferring Harry? The Order obviously no longer trusts him.

Voldemort demonstrates several times how he feels about his minions who are no longer useful to him and/or have failed him.

I'm fairly certain he would have looked at an end to Snape's inside information as the end of his usefulness.

Maybe eventually, but he had just successfully killed Dumbledore so I think that success should ride him out for a while. And he was also useful as headmaster of Hogwarts. No, he was no longer a spy but he was no longer a spy. Only an idiot would have counted on Snape being able to get any information out of the order at that point. I have to agree -- Snape giving over that information at that time wasn't all that useful. IMHO, it was Rowling making one last attempt to convince those who were on the "Snape is good" side of the debate that he was really bad before doing her big reveal.
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Dagonee
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quote:
No, Mundungus didn't tell him. Snape knew from Dumbledore, because there's a scene where they're discussing it in the headmaster's office. Snape Confunded Mundungus to make him suggest to the Order that they use six decoy Harrys.
Actually, how was Snape in the headmaster's office at that point? It was before the ministry fell and, presumably, before Snape was headmaster at Hogwarts.
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ElJay
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I'm pretty sure Snape was made headmaster before the ministry fell.
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BlackBlade
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Did it bother anyone else that when Nagini was sent to attack Snape he just stood there and let it happen. Snape was a VERY accomplished wizard, I refuse to believe he would let fear overpower him and just let the snake get to him. Sure he might not have stood a chance against Voldemort even without the snake attacking him but why not try?
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mr_porteiro_head
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How could that have happened? Did people not believe Harry that he had murdered Dumbledore?
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ElJay
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Not really. . . remember, the Daily Prophet was printing all those lies, questioning what had happened and implying that Harry had actually killed Dumbledore himself.
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Javert Hugo
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It sounds like the Ministry was so corrupt that they didn't believe or didn't care that he did murder Dumbledore.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
How could that have happened? Did people not believe Harry that he had murdered Dumbledore?

The ministry appointed him? Remember it was on Voldemort's pocket. Also wasn't Dumbledore's death inconclusive? Some people thought Harry killed him.
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Dagonee
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quote:
Not really. . . remember, the Daily Prophet was printing all those lies, questioning what had happened and implying that Harry had actually killed Dumbledore himself.
That didn't happen until after the ministry fell, did it?

quote:
The ministry appointed him? Remember it was on Voldemort's pocket.
Not until the wedding - after Harry departed the Dursleys. Only the head of law enforcement was under their control prior when Harry departed.
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Christine
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There's no way Snape was headmaster before Voldemort had full control over the ministry. I think Dag made an excellent point and it seems likely to be a pretty sizable oversight. Not unforgivable, but sizable.
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Javert Hugo
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Didn't that conversation happen before Dumbledore died? He died at the end of the school year - I thought they were making plans for Harry for that summer before school ended.
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ElJay
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Ron & Hermononie showed Harry the headlines before the wedding, I'm pretty sure, which was before the Ministry fell. I don't have my book here to check, though.

I was under the impression that the Death Eaters had a lot of influence in the Ministry before it fell, and that the head of law enforcement was just one of the people on their side.

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ElJay
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That might have been when they had the conversation, but still, the actual date to move Harry couldn't have been set that early.
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Dagonee
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quote:
Ron & Hermononie showed Harry the headlines before the wedding, I'm pretty sure, which was before the Ministry fell.
The "Snape Confirmed as Headmaster" headline was seen after the wedding. I'm almost positive because I double checked. But it said "confirmed," so that doesn't mean it actually happened then.
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Dagonee
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quote:
Didn't that conversation happen before Dumbledore died? He died at the end of the school year - I thought they were making plans for Harry for that summer before school ended.
If it did, then my objection goes away. I'll have to double check.
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Christine
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The conversation didn't take place before Dumbledore died for two reasons:
1. The portrait only appeared after Dumbledore died.
2. Anyone with two braincells left would have changed any plans that Snape knew about. [Smile]

I'm sure that the headline came up after the wedding but I don't have a copy of the book handy. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the newspapers they stole from ministry employees when they were staking it out, making their plans to get in there and get the locket.

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ElJay
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Right, but the headlines about Harry being untrustworthy were from before then.

--

"Confirmed" to me emans that he was acting headmaster already, but YMMV.

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Javert Hugo
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Maybe the plans weren't made yet with the Order, but the conversation occurred between Dumbledore and Snape. They planned what he would say, and then he confunded Mundugus later, so the Order didn't know the plans came from/were known by Snape.
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ElJay
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Right, but that still means Dumbledore couldn't have given Snape the date of the move, which is what I was responding to.
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Dagonee
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quote:
The conversation didn't take place before Dumbledore died for two reasons:
1. The portrait only appeared after Dumbledore died.
2. Anyone with two braincells left would have changed any plans that Snape knew about.

The conversation did not require Snape to already know, just be capable of finding out.

quote:
"Confirmed" to me emans that he was acting headmaster already, but YMMV.
I was thinking "confirmed" as in Senate confirmation, so it's definitely open to various interpretations.

In short, I don't care too much even if it was a glitch, and I'm willing to adopt assumptions (such as picking one of the different interpretations of "confirmed").

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Humean316
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On page 688, it does in fact say that Snape was the one who told Voldemort of the correct date of Harry's departure as per Dumbledore's instructions. They did this because Voldemort believed Snape to be well informed, and in both of their opinions (Dumbledore and Snape), not giving up the information meant not only being on the outs with Voldemort but also turning Hogwarts over to the Carrows. Essentially, I think they were trying to protect both Harry and Hogwarts because Snape was already headmaster of the school and protecting the students (though Neville would have something else to say about that I guess).

Also, it was confirmed at the wedding itself that Snape was the headmaster of Hogwarts long before the wedding itself took place, which would then place the conversation between Snape and Dumbledore a little bit after his death. When Snape and Dumbledore spoke on Page 688, I believe that Thicknesse had already changed sides over to Voldemort's side, and so while the ministry had not fallen yet, its corruption allowed Thicknesse (who I believe was the Minister at that point) to place Snape in the position.

The only question that I think remains is how Snape knew of the date--it could be that the Order didn't change the date (though that is unlikely as others have said that they knew Snape was bad) or it could be that Dumbledore told Snape of the date, but more than likely, Snape used Mundungus to find the date, probably through the imperious curse or through Occlumency.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Humean316:
When Snape and Dumbledore spoke on Page 688, I believe that Thicknesse had already changed sides over to Voldemort's side, and so while the ministry had not fallen yet, its corruption allowed Thicknesse (who I believe was the Minister at that point) to place Snape in the position.

Thicknesse didn't change sides, he was Imperiused. And he wasn't Minister, but he was pretty high up.
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Humean316
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Yeah you are right Rivka, Scrimogeour (sp?) was the minister of magic at the time, but on page 46, Mad-Eye says Thincknesse "has gone over", which I took to mean that he changed sides. Scrimogeour died when the ministry fell at the wedding, so there that is...
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breyerchic04
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Moody thought Thicknesse had gone over, but the death eaters said that they just had him under an imperius.
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Damien.m
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The only thing that bothered me was why nineteen year old Teddy Lupin was kissing Victorie on the Hogwarts Express.
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johnsonweed
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Major Spoilers!!!

Jo Rowling answers many questions during an online chat!!

She gives sort of an Epilogue to the Epilogue!!!!

From the AP story...

Rowling said the world was a sunnier, happier place after the seventh book and the death of Voldemort.

Harry Potter, who always voiced a desire to become an Auror, or someone who fights dark wizards, was named head of the Auror Department under the new wizarding government headed by his friend and ally, Kingsley Shacklebolt.

His wife, Ginny Weasley, stuck with her athletic career, playing for the Holyhead Harpies, the all-female Quidditch team. Eventually, Ginny left the team to raise their three children - James, Albus and Lily - while writing as the senior Quidditch correspondent for the wizarding newspaper, the Daily Prophet.

Harry's best friend, Ron Weasley, joined his brother, George, as a partner at their successful joke shop, Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. Hermione Granger, Ron's wife and the third person of the series' dark wizard fighting trio, furthered the rights of subjugated creatures such as house elves in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures before joining the magical law enforcement squad. The couple had two children - Rose and Hugo.

Luna Lovegood, Harry's airily distracted friend with a love for imaginary animals who joins the fight against Voldemort in the Order of the Phoenix, becomes a famous wizarding naturalist who eventually marries the grandson of Newt Scamander, author of "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them."

And what Muggle, or non-wizard, song would have been played at the funeral of Albus Dumbledore, the most brilliant and talented wizard the world had ever known?

"Surely `I Did It My Way' by Frank Sinatra," Rowling told her fans, referring to the song "My Way," written by Paul Anka but popularized by Sinatra, among other singers.

As the chat wrapped up, Rowling thanked readers for their loyalty to the series.

"What can I say? Thank you so much for sticking with me, and with Harry, for so long. You have made this an incredible journey for Harry's author."

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Nathan2006
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I know it's a change of subject, but I was wondering if anybody else felt this way.

Was anybody else shocked at Minvera's willingness to use the imperio curse?

My jaw quite literally dropped when I read that. Remember?

Harry, Ron, and Hermione were in the Ravenclaw Common room, trying to find the 'die-dum': enter mean teachers, add Minerva and Wam! Imperio.

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breyerchic04
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Damien, Rowling has said he was on the train dropping her off and saying goodbye before she left for her 7th year. She was just turning 17 and he was 19, nothing wrong with that age difference.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I was surprised when Harry was so willing to use the Imperious curse, but after I got used to that, McGonnogal doing the same wasn't that big a deal.

Also, I consider everything she says happened but which isn't in the books to be fanfiction.

My Harry Potter did not become an Auror.

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breyerchic04
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Porter, when she comes out with an encyclopedia book will you still consider it fanfiction?
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mr_porteiro_head
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I dunno. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

After all, I consider the idea that the Force is caused by a virus to be the work of a hack fanfic writer.

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breyerchic04
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K. I was just wondering. From my perspective it is canon if she says it and I can see where she has said it.


I have weird feelings about the imperius curse. I was upset when Harry did it, I was more upset when McGonnagal did because I think of her as an authority figure, but I am now just mad that Rowling called it Unforgivable and then let it happen with no consequences, even if the consequences would have been hard.

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Saephon
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I dunno. I was kind of upset at the use of those curses too, but then I thought "well, they're Unforgivable because the Ministry said so. And we all know how everything the Ministry says is infallible, right?"

Doesn't mean using the ol' AK isn't a terrible thing to do. But I suppose in urgent times, making the choice to use Imperio is fine by me. If it were me, and it was a choice between using it to make sure I got that Horcrux, or refusing to use an unforgivable curse, and blowing my cover and who knows what other consequences; I think I would do what Harry did.

For the Greater Good! [Wink]

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Christine
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I didn't like McGonical doing it partly because it was so unnecessary. I was pretty shocked, yeah.

Porter -- I think I like your attitude about stuff Rowling says happened that wasn't in the book. Usually, writers only get the book to say what went on. I think it's a bit unfair that she's out there explaining it all. The book should speak for itself. That's what we tell the new writers who come through the writers forums when they argue with feedback -- we tell them in the real world, you won't be able to explain what you meant to publishers, editors, or fans. But Rowling is doing just that and it kind of irks me.

The only trouble is that in my world, Harry would be the DADA teacher, and she did kind of nix that on the platform. I'll have to give it some thought...

I'm not even sure if I'll read the encyclopedia, let alone if it will count. IMHO, if it didn't go in the book, then it must not have been that interesting.

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The Pixiest
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Christine: I think when writers make a billion dollars they can sorta do whatever they want. Giving away an afterword instead of cranking it out in a Harry Potter Tell All and making another boxcar of $100 bills is pretty innocuous.

... I'll still buy a Harry Potter Tell All so long as it's not by Rita Skeeter.

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Christine
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I know WHY she can do it, but it doesn't mean I can't enjoy the books at face value and ignore her. [Smile]
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mr_porteiro_head
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That's pretty much the same reason why Lucas was able to do whatever he wanted with the prequels, no matter how lame.

It's not a good enough reason for that stuff to enter my canon.

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Blayne Bradley
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The curses are Unforgivable because 1 kills, one denies the target his or her free will, and the third causes unimaginable and agonizing pain. They're unforgivable in the context that they're horribly to deliberately use on another human being especially Aderva Kadavra since its affect of all of them are un.... un... unsomething... unretractable? You can't take it back! Bah close enough.
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pooka
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"Madeye" had permission from Dumbledore to demonstrate the unforgivable curses in 4th year. So they are clearly not on the same par of illegality as, say, using an underage Patronus charm in front of Dudley. Does using Crucio tear the soul, like Ak? Probably. But maybe there are circumstances where not using it are just as awful. I mean, think about all the stuff Minerva had to stand idly by in the interest of the Greater Good that year.
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Nathan2006
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I don't know... On the one hand, I thought it was kind of unthinkable that she would have used the imperio curse.

But, perhaps those curses weren't always unforgivable. Minerva may remember a time when she could have used the curses, and did so whenever judgement permitted. It would make it considerably easier for her to permit herself to do it again later in life.

And, none of us really know much about her. Who knows what kind of life she led before coming to Hogwarts? I mean, you have to remember, we've had less than perfect teachers teaching at Hogwarts. Snape, Slughorn. That didn't mean they weren't accomplished wizards, but we know for a fact that they don't have the greatest character. Who knows what makes Minerva tick?

She's always been a favorite character of mine. I hope her past is explained in detail if a potter-pedia comes out.

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Xavier
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I finished the book tonight, and have no time to read this entire thread! (I've only read the first page so far.)

I'll give my thoughts here, and then go back and read it. I'm going to go ahead and assume that others have expressed similar things.

1) Overall, a very good book.

2) If Harry had died "for real" at the end, then it would have been epically good. In my mind, he went from a mythical figure, to a pretty average protagonist, simply by waking up not dead.

3) Each time a "good guy" used an unforgivable curse, a nasty taste was left in my mouth. Harry casts, what, 7 or 8 unforgivable curses in this book? McGonagall even casts one! Nobody seemed to care. If they weren't a big deal, why haven't they been using them all along?

4) I was also upset by how easy it was to ensnare someone with the Imperius Curse. Harry got a goblin and a Death Eater under his control with out even breaking a sweat. That was LAME, in my mind. A spell so insanely powerful should take effort and skill, IMHO.

Other than that, I thought it was a really strong book. I was completely right about Snape, and the Harry as a Horcrux thing.

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Lisa
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I have a question about Voldemort and Lily. On page 344, it says this:
quote:
He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear.
Okay, so Snape asked Riddle to spare Lily. And he was going to do it? Did he not know that she was Muggle-born? I can't imagine him really being willing to spare her, even for Snape.
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
I have a question about Voldemort and Lily. On page 344, it says this:
quote:
He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear.
Okay, so Snape asked Riddle to spare Lily. And he was going to do it? Did he not know that she was Muggle-born? I can't imagine him really being willing to spare her, even for Snape.
And he's a half blood, so....why not? Especially if Snape had been useful to him lately. He did dole out rewards. That part wasn't highlighted as much in the books but you can't maintain a following by punishing people alone.
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pooka
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If he was going to kill her anyway, how was it a sacrifice for her to intercede, as it were, between Voldemort and Harry? And since her being spared was because of Snape's love for her, it's one big, creepy, circle.
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mr_porteiro_head
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Voldemort said he didn't want to kill her, that she could just step aside and be spared. The only reason he killed her was to get through to Harry.

Of course, he could have used another spell besides AK to get past her...

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