quote:Christ figures in literature are ones who sacrifice themselves. It's the resurrection bit that makes it different.
Actually, the resurrection bit is what makes it just like the previous ones (Osiris, Dionysus, etc.) that predate the Christ story. Of course, this is counting mythology as literature. You may have simply meant that in modern literature, the Christ figure is seldom resurrected, in which case, yeah.
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BB, The dying/rising god is one of the most common shared stories in mythology. David's already referenced a couple of examples.
It was often tied to the winter/spring cycle, with the deity/hero dying to provide light or food or warmth for his people and rising again with the return of spring.
Persephone is a famous example of this sort.
Another variation is death and ressurrection with the return being accompanied with a transfiguration and or enlightenment. Dionysus is a famous example of this.
I've used Greek myths as examples because they are most familar with many in western audiences, but these myths can be found in msot mythologies.
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I'm not upset about the Christ figure, but I find that often, like in this case, its shorthand simplicity takes away from potential deeper meanings - the symbolism of the King's Cross Harry and Dumbledore scene, for example.
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I like how Harry put his old wand together with the Elder Wand, only wanting it for that.
I don't like how there wasn't much of a 'reaction' factor for Harry after watching Snape's memories. -Nor did he throw the bottle of Snape juice at a wall after having been given it.
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The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
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Lest I seem too caught up in arguing, I do want to say that I thoroughly loved the book... a very fitting finish to the series and vying with PoA as my favorite.
I was especially gratified that Neville got to play such a critical and leaderly role and I nearly cheered aloud when he cut off Nagini's head. I was a "Snape is Good" man, and got totally suckered in... I spent the first 3/4 of the book thinking "oh well... guess I was wrong about him... maybe she was too busy wiht other plot twists and couldn't find the time to write him a little more complexity... pity." Then he gave Harry his memories and... wow, what a great chapter that was. Also loved that Dudley finally came to respect Harry and, as others have said, the Chapter where Harry realizes he has to die was truly wrenching. Despite that Lupin and Tonks where a couple of my favorites, I think Fred's death hit me the hardest, because it was like he and Percy had just discovered that they really were brothers and then it was taken away from them. I am so glad that they got that moment, though.
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Voldemort drew his wand and pointed it at Harry. Harry spread his arms without reaching for his wand.
"Avada Kadavra!"
Green light shot out of Voldemort's wand; Harry's body fell to the ground.
"Avada Kadavra! Avada Kadavra! Avada Kadavra!"
Voldemort paused and looked down on "The Boy Who Lived." The wind russled through Harry's ruffled hair.
"Avada Kadavra!" screamed Voldemort one last time. Harry's lifeless body bounced.
"Narcissa, dismember the corpse, I'd like Harry's head on a poll as we march back to Hogwarts proper."
The End.
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It should have been called "Harry Potter and The Butcher's Bill." But then, we knew there would be a lot of death.
I thought the scenes in the woods were way too long. I think Ms Rowling looked at her "book per year" formula and wondered "How am I going to stretch this out for a whole year? I know, I'll have them meander through the woods on the lamb for 9 months getting nothing done."
I knew Tonks and Lupin were Avada-fodder as soon as they made Harry Teddy's godfather.
I would have enjoyed a little more denument. I wanted answers to what people did with their lives, not just "Oh, ya, they had wizarding kids that went to hogwarts."
I hope Prof. McGonagal is head mistress.
There's so much more to say, but I don't think it's sunk in all the way yet. I read it so quickly on Saturday (So no one would have a chance to spoil it for me) that I think I need to read it again...
quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
And Dumbledore's firm insistence (warning, perhaps? did anyone else feel it was fairly ominous?) that nothing could be done for it.
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Mr S: Thanks, I can see how you might believe this. Bear in mind that there are those who believe that from the time of Adam, Christ's story was understood in detail, and since the story was told from the beginning, its very possible that mythologies from Greece to China may reflect influence from Christ's story not the other way around.
But your point is taken.
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quote:The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
that part really really worried me. I don't like the idea of even the evilest man who ever lived being a flayed baby eternally.
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I feel sorry for the people that grab at the pathetic phantom power they feel from posting the spoilers in horribly rude places. I hate the Crabbes and Goyles of the world.. I was watching some lego video on you tube, and low and behold, down in the comments is every spoiler possible along with all their page numbers.
I read it in Palmyra, New York, waiting for the Hill Cumorah pageant to start. The last 100 pages were a vicious race against the sun because I didn't bring a flashlight. I didn't make it - much of the battle was read by the light of the fires onstage. I read the epilogue in the parking lot, waiting for the crowd to disperse so I could find my car, covering my ears to drown out the "You're going to hell" rants of the anti-Mormon protesters.
There were hundreds of Harry Potter books in the crowd. Every third person waiting was reading it, and I had several strangers come up to me, all excited about the book. Some cast members came by to ask how many people were dead yet and express envy that I could read at the time. It was so cool.
That was pretty fun. I would have preferred to read it with my friends, but my Harry Potter friends all live far away and I'd promised to be a driver for the Palmyra trip weeks ago.
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Hee hee. I thought about going to Palmyra, but the 21st of July was "booked" on my calendar. Now you see why I have to examine myself for "false Christ" conflicts.
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Heh. That did occur to me as I attempted to read the Deathly Hallows by the light of the fire that was consuming Abinadi, but I figured that I was at least there - that has to count for something, and the action doesn't move really fast in the pageant anyway. I could glance up every 20 seconds and be fine.
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I made a parallel between the "bored in the woods" part of the book and "slogging through Mordor" in Tolkein.
In other words even though it was boring and hard and annoying to read, without it the rest of the book wouldn't hold up. I suspect that the "woods" section of the book is what is going to make the entire thing stand up and last over time.
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I didn't notice such a bad "bored in the woods" thing. I mean, I think there had to be some grieving over Ron's departure. Or do you mean after? We had to feel the weight of Ron being gone, and knowing Hermione wouldn't shift affections to Harry. It added weight to Ron's struggle with his demons. Plus it made the appearance of the doe such an extraordinary act of grace. How did you all react to that? I wondered if it was Lily, I couldn't imagine how it could be Snape, because I was a Snape detractor, but no one else made sense.
P.S. I wonder why Dumbledore never married. Were any of the house heads or teachers? What's with that?
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Oh I was bored before Ron left for the same reasons he was. I was also bored reading through all those stupid newspaper clippings on Dumbledore's life, knowing they weren't the entire truth and she'd have to tell us the real story later in the book.
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I wonder how much of Snape's memories Alan Rickman will be able to play. I guess he wears quite a bit of makeup anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: I do think the idea of Harry dying for his friends making him "the master of death" is sufficiently Christian to be identified and discussed as such.
Aha! That's what it was. The whole, "I died for them and now your spells don't stick, neener neener!" bit was what annoyed me. Not solely for the Christian reference, but that didn't help.
quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: I had actually never read any of these books before two weeks ago, but I've read all seven now, and I am very pleased I did.
Didn't your family miss you?
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
quote: Seriously? Seems like they still had to fight pretty hard. I was kind of confused by that point.
He says it as he is in the final duel with Voldemort. No one else knew about it, so they kept fighting as if their lives depended on it. Plus, he only saved them from Voldy, not the Death Eaters.
They thought he was dead, remember. Also, I don't think he realized at first what was happening either.
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me:
quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
And Dumbledore's firm insistence (warning, perhaps? did anyone else feel it was fairly ominous?) that nothing could be done for it.
Oh, it was definitely a warning. Along the lines of, "If you try, you will undo all the good you just did."
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:P.S. I wonder why Dumbledore never married. Were any of the house heads or teachers? What's with that?
You clearly did not read Ms. Skeeter's book.
Agreed. As Harry said, Dumbledore was never free. He was tied to his guilt and shame -- and doing his best to do penance for his mistakes as a young adult.
I could see there being a Mrs. Flitwick or a Mr. Sprout, but most of the other teachers are clearly never-married.
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Thought the book was great. I am kind of upset I read everyone’s theories ahead of time so once I realized which ones were right the actual book seemed a little anti-climatic.
I'll agree the only part I didn't care for was the camping in the woods for 9 months.
Did anyone else feel like the diadem felt rushed. “Let’s see; book, ring, locket, cup, snake, Harry….Oh yeah I need to add one more horecrux.” It was a little too easy to find and to easy to destroy.
I loved Neville got to pull out the sword and kill the snake. I wanted him to be the one to kill Bellatrix, but Mrs. Weasley was really cool also.
I guess it was appropriate that she would find a way to kill Voldy without Harry having to actually do the killing him. Interesting it was OK for many other good characters to kill in battle, but not for Harry.
I wish the Snape story arch could have been told throughout the book instead of all at once. I’m not sure how it could have been done, but after book 6 I figured he would play a much more central roll in book 7.
These last two books are going to be very difficult to make into good movies. Unlike OotP which had a lot of fluff that I didn’t miss in the movie at all* books 6 & 7 will have to include many of the subplots and storylines. There is so much to background to explain it will be a challenge to make them interesting in the movie. The Kings Cross scene will be very hard to do well. I guess they will have to do some streamlining and we will all be mad at the parts they left out.
*I’ll go out on a limb and say the movie OotP was better than the book. (I know that’s another thread.)
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quote:Did anyone else feel like the diadem felt rushed. “Let’s see; book, ring, locket, cup, snake, Harry….Oh yeah I need to add one more horecrux.” It was a little too easy to find and to easy to destroy.
No, it built from when Xenophilus mentions it, through Bellatrix's vault, and of course being foreshadowed from book 6. I thought the last horcrux might be the potions book, but 2 horcrux books both hidden at Hogwarts seemed improbable. I was just really shocked that Nagini turned out to really be one after all.
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quote:Agreed. As Harry said, Dumbledore was never free. He was tied to his guilt and shame -- and doing his best to do penance for his mistakes as a young adult
*cough* *cough* yes this is PRECISELY what I meant! Leave it to Rivka to bring it to my attention that something I said in jest actually has some substance to it!
I was suggesting that in Rita Skeeters biography of Dumbledore some sort of secret love or vile liaison would likely be hinted at, if not outright stated.
But yes I think the truth of it is that Dumbledore had skeletons and not pretty ones. He spent his life trying to pay reparations for his actions when he was younger.
How odd that both Snape and Dumbledore are identical in this regard but both approach this duty so differently.
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They're NOT identical. Dumbledore regretted his actions almost immediately, and tried to ensure there was never any similar incident -- even to the degree of not accepting the Minister job because he knew real power was not a good thing for him to have.
Snape only regretted his actions when they led to Lily's death. Where is the remorse for all the other deaths that occurred at his hands or because of information he gave Voldemort when he really was working for him? Not until he was dead / about to die do we see real remorse.
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Sooo...any theories on who the 2 additional deaths were? And who the 1 person she saved was? I'm hoping this comes out in an interview soon.
My theories:
Lupin and Tonks weren't slated for death until this book.
I'm not sure who the reprieve would be. There are a lot more choices, there, but I'm wondering if it's tied to the person who was supposed to do magic late in life but didn't -- seems at least one scene got cut entirely.
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I prefer to read without looking for any "Christian Imagery." It feels too much like I'm stuck in high school English class again. I'm just going to enjoy the story.
"The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming." That was probably the best line in the whole book, for me. It was creepy and the necessary abbreviation of the message unerlined its urgency and seriousness. Alos, I keep hearing "They are coming" in the voice of Gandalf in Moria.
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I think the reprieve was Hagrid - there were so many chances for him to die. I think he was kept alive so he could carry Harry's body into Hogwarts.
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This is to all the people who are unsatisfied with the ending. To people who want to know the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Hogwarts.
Did they repair the School?
Did they weed out the Ministry?
Did Umbridge pay a price?
Did they bury and mourn their dead?
Naturally the answer is, of course they did. What else could the do?
Certainly they repaired the school, what else could the do? Certainly they buried and mourned their dead, what else could they do? Certainly Umbridge paid some price for her actions. It may not have been high enough to satisfy us, but she paid. What happened to Draco? Well, certainly something happened, but he got over it, got past it, and moved on.
Do you really want to hear about all this mundane and fairly obvious stuff? When it seems fairly obvious that, one way or another, all this issues were indeed dealt with as they must be.
You don't end a story with the readers completely satisfied and knowing everything. You leave them with their minds and imaginations on fire, speculating about the future and what happened next. You don't leave them hanging, but you do leave them wanting more; that is what keeps the story alive even when it is over.
There is tons that we don't know, but this we do know ... life went on. Of that, I'm glad.
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BlueWizard -- it's not the answers to the questions that is important, 5t's the completion of an emotional journey with the characters. I don't have to see them burying the dead and rebuilding the school to know they did it but it remains a powerful thing for me to be able to share with them rather than having to logic it out in my own head. When it comes to satisfaction from a book you need more than a logical conclusion, you need an emotional one. We've lived with these characters for years now and have quite an emotional investment in them by now. Many of us wanted to live through at least some of the aftermath.
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Was I the only one who thought it a little creepy that Snape's last act was to show Harry "Hey I've always had the hots for YOUR MOM! I was stalking her when we were both 9!"
I liked getting the backstory on Snape, especially the realization that the whole time he was begging to find Potter for V was following Dumbledore's instructions about when Nagini is kept protected, and of course he needed to pass on that info... but finding out your least favorite teacher's been carrying a torch for your mother his whole life is not the kind of thing a 17-year-old boy would be entirely comfortable with, IMO.
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I've decided Harry was not master of Death itself (Not even Xenophilus thought Death was personified) but he had grasped a magic greater than the Avada Kedevara spell. He could withstand the imperius curse too, and I suppose... was he withstanding the cruciatus curse in book V? I'm mixed up between what happened in the book vs. the movie. Basically, when it comes right down to it, it's the Alvin Maker/Wicca school of harm none.
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Dobby was also...the stuff. It was really sad when he bit it.
I thought the whole Snape thing was fascinating.
The robbery of Gringotts--that was awesome.
I thought Neville's role at the end was great. I kind of wonder what Rowling was trying to say by having the "other" boy (neville) participate in killing the last Horcrux.
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That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that steven.
Was anyone else wondering why destroying the horcruxes didn't fry people's hands off like the ring apparently had for Dumbledore? I mean, it got resolved, I just wondered if anyone else got confused by that in the course of things.
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: I thought that he burned his hand off putting on the ring, not by trying to destroy it.
Yup. It was the desire for the Hallows that caused the curse -- which burned his hand, and caused his death.
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: "The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming." That was probably the best line in the whole book, for me. It was creepy and the necessary abbreviation of the message unerlined its urgency and seriousness. Alos, I keep hearing "They are coming" in the voice of Gandalf in Moria.
Easily it was the most exciting line of the book for me. I had a huge shiver roll up and down my spine when I read that. And also, I totally thought of Gandalf when I read it to. I had lines from the Book of Marzabul running through my head for a few minutes after that, which I think only made it more exciting.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Aha! That's what it was. The whole, "I died for them and now your spells don't stick, neener neener!" bit was what annoyed me. Not solely for the Christian reference, but that didn't help.
Did you hate that element way back when it was originally introduced as the reason why Lily's sacrifice made Harry "The Boy Who Lived"?
And is rebirth and redemption giving power really solely a Christian reference?
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JKR can do no wrong in my eyes. The book could have been positively filled to the seams with fluff and I wouldn't have minded. I've loved every book, and found no error with any of them. Of course, I haven't re-read any of them either, and I find that it's the re-read that opens my eyes to literary misteps.
I was never bored during the reading of DH. I'm actually a little surprised others were. I was completely into it, and, let's face it, we needed a little Ron time. Let him leave and come back. I thought it was needed.
Also, the entire series is told through Harry's POV, with the exception of the phantam prologues masqurading as 'Chapter One's. I'm surprised we learned as much as we did through one POV. But, Rowling always surprises me. I didn't mind the exposition of Dumbledore's theories. I would have been angry if they were trimmed in any way.
Rowling's a Christian? Wow. I know people who are convinced she's a die-hard satanist. (I was never in the group, thankfully.) I never really thought about it... Her religous beliefs, I mean.
As somebody who hates preachy books (Especially Christian preachy books), I have to say I didn't detect any discernable Christian symbology that didn't blend well with the story, or that was artificially inserted by Rowling.
I really didn't see it as a Christian messege at all. The book was true to the series. This was the kind of ending that befitted the Harry Potter series, and I felt that it completed and complimented a lot of ideas from the earlier books.
I did see similarities, but you see similarities to Christianity all the time. I account it to the fact that Christianity is one of the most superficially understood religions there are. I mean, Most Christian sterotypes are due to the exaggeration of beliefs that do, in fact, exist -- as opposed to other religons that are misunderstood alltogether. So, a lot of people, at least people in the US and the UK, probably have a remedial understanding of Christianity. We're everywhere, everywhere!
I find it odd that anybody would think that the book is in any way dirtied because of the similarities, or that it would in any way affect one's enjoyment of the book.
Lighten up.
Okay, Hermione (Goblet, Hufflepuff), Ron (Locket, Slytherin), Harry (Harry, Griffindor), Neville (Nagini), Dumbledore (Ring), and Goyle (Die-dum, Ravenclaw) have all destroyed horocruxes. I forgot the seventh, and the person who took care of the seventh one. Sorry. Oh, and was the Ring Gryffindor's?
I was just interested in how many different got to kill a Horocrux. I call next! My turn!
*** Edited for missing Italics, and i's in brackets ***
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Did anybody but me assume that leaving her unconscious in a room full of Dementors resulted in her recieving the "kiss?"
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quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: Was I the only one who thought it a little creepy that Snape's last act was to show Harry "Hey I've always had the hots for YOUR MOM! I was stalking her when we were both 9!"
I liked getting the backstory on Snape, especially the realization that the whole time he was begging to find Potter for V was following Dumbledore's instructions about when Nagini is kept protected, and of course he needed to pass on that info... but finding out your least favorite teacher's been carrying a torch for your mother his whole life is not the kind of thing a 17-year-old boy would be entirely comfortable with, IMO.
--Enigmatic
It's even squickier when you realize that his actual dying act was to stare into Harry's eyes, perhaps thinking of Lily's, since they were alike.
So, his least favorite teacher dies while staring lovingly into his eyes while probably thinking about his mom.
Poor Snape. I love Snape. Perhaps more now that he's basically Alan Rickman in my mind. Snape rocks.
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So...did anyone else notice that there were 8 Horcruxes, in the end. Or at least, 8 pieces of Voldemort's soul?
1. The piece in Voldemort. 2. the diary 3. the ring 4. the locket 5. the cup 6. the diadem 7. Nagini 8. inside Harry
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Sacricing yourself and being reborn is one of the oldest stories in the world. Perhaps one of the best. Stories are sacred.
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Christine, Voldemort didn't know that he had put part of himself in Harry as a horcrux, did he? So in his mind, he had made 7 horcruxes, which was for him the proper number.
There's probably something in there about making 8 instead of the magical 7 horcruxes made him weaker, but I don't think that particular aspect really matters all that much.
And Eaquae Legit, you are right. That line was the moment I knew that this was my favorite book. It all had come to this. All of the elements could only be understood by someone who has read and been enthralled in the books.
If you go up and tell someone who hasn't read or seen Harry Potter (probably hard to do) and told them "The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming." They would have no clue what you were talking about. They probably would back away, thinking you were nuts.
And that's why I loved it so much. I knew everything that had happened. I knew that the fact that the Ministry has fallen was bad. Not necessarily bad because the Ministry had fallen, but bad because the Death Eaters had finally taken over. I knew that Scrimgeour's death was bad, not because he was a great man, but because he wasn't evil. He was the Minister of Magic, needing to be somewhere in the middle of all of the politics. I knew that the warning "They are coming" meant everyone's worst nightmares had been realized. That there was no more denying the rumors, the accusations. It was time to truly take action.
At that moment, all of the time and thought-power and emotions I have felt over the past 10 years were about to come to an end, a potentially glorious, satisfying, and moving end. From that moment on, I actually did not stop reading the book. I read all day, and all the way until 1:30 in the AM, even though I had to get up at 6 for work. It didn't matter. This was it.
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I would have preferred to read it with my friends, but my Harry Potter friends all live far away and I'd promised to be a driver for the Palmyra trip weeks ago.
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Didn't your family miss you? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Leave it to Rivka to bring it to my attention that something I said in jest actually has some substance to it!
