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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Buffy season 8, Angel season 6 comics (spoilery spoilers) (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Buffy season 8, Angel season 6 comics (spoilery spoilers)
plaid
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Can't find the previous thread for this, so starting a new one. And as the thread title notes, this thread is just full of ***SPOILERY*** goodness/badness.

Liking the Buffy comics a lot, the latest one (#10) has a lot of nice character bits.

Angel has had 2 issues so far. Joss Whedon's less involved with it, he's being a script editor but not the actual writer. I'm missing Joss's dialogue... and I think it's just harder to do Angel as a comic. Buffy stories are easier to tell I think -- more compelling mythos (Slayers etc.) and more ongoing characters. Angel... I liked Angel, but a lot of liking it was because the writing and the actors made me care about the characters even when the storylines were vague and slow to build up.

I may get to liking the Angel comic once the story gets going and I care about the characters again. The art's kinda fuzzy though, so expressions and dramatic reveals don't work so well. (Oh, that's Wesley? OK. And who's that? Is that Drusilla? No, wait, that's Illyria. Oh.) And the whole hell-on-earth/earth-on-hell story is hard for me to get in to because I've read too many hell-on-earth stories. (That said, I liked the bit about Spike being the lord of heaven in Beverly Hills. And the hell-on-earth IS a kinda appropriate consequence of season 5's how-the-hell-are-they-gonna-get-out-of-THAT finale.)

(If I was good I'd save up a bunch of the comics to read all at once to have more of a TV-type experience, since it seems to take 2 regular-sized issues to tell a story that would be told in 1 episode. But, I'm not good, and I'm not patient. More comics NOW, dang it!)

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breyerchic04
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I want to read the buffy comics in graphic novel format. I think that might make me enjoy them more.
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plaid
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In the latest Buffy (#11), Satsu falls in the mud, and Buffy tells her how that reminds her of a dream in which she (Buffy) looked like that. Anyone know what that's a reference to?
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Lisa
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It was the last episode of Season 4. A sort of coda, after the two part finale. It was called Restless. We got to hear Giles sing, we got to meet the first slayer, we got to see a spirit who looked like Tara tell Buffy to "be back before Dawn", we got to see Buffy and Faith making beds together. Next to Once More With Feeling, Restless is my favorite episode.
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breyerchic04
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Everyone seems to love Restless and Hush but I hate them both.
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plaid
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Ah. I saw Restless (have seen all of them), but don't remember that particular bit from the dream. Thanks!
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Lisa
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I wasn't wild about Hush. I mean, it was well done, but not my cup of tea. Same with The Body. It was incredibly good, for what it was, but it wasn't feel-good TV.
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breyerchic04
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But Restless was? I'll give you that Once More with Feeling almost was feel good tv.
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Chris Bridges
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"The Body" was most definitely not feel-good TV. But it was the most intense hour of television I have ever seen.
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plaid
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Ooh! I just realized what the "Restless" reference must mean!

The Big Bad for season 8 is...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
the Cheese Guy!!! [Eek!]

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The Flying Dracula Hair
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"...it does not wear me."

I REALLY dislike the Buffy Season 8 comic, but dig much where Season 6 of Angel is going.

I heard a certain spoilery spoiler about a certain


..
.


.
.

couple


but I still have to ask where the source got his info from, because I ran to check issue #11 and didn't see it, nor did it pop up in the latest Angel.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by breyerchic04:
But Restless was? I'll give you that Once More with Feeling almost was feel good tv.

I found Restless wicked cool. It had me so looking forward to the 5th season, and seeing the stuff that was foreshadowed was wild. I didn't see it as a downer at all.

[ March 02, 2008, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Lisa ]

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plaid
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I'm liking the Angel comic better -- it's getting more interesting -- but don't feel like the non-Whedon writer guy quite has the feel for it yet; the dialogue in #4 has too many random asides, and I feel like he's juggling too many characters right now.

I'm also wishing they could print the art on cheap newsprint. On glossy paper, the day-glo coloring hurts my eyes. [Cry]

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plaid
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More comics! Yeah!

Love the Dracula and Xander bits.

Satsu's doomed. Doomed, doomed, doomed. Her only chance to be with Buffy is to become a vampire. And even then she'll STILL be doomed.

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Rakeesh
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I haven't read the Buffy 8 comics yet, but I'm current on the Angel comics.

I have to admit I'm really digging the way Team Angel has gotten totally screwed by their glorious 'last' stand. I'm fascinated by Wesley as usual, and Gunn's (not one of my favorites until he went all gray matter gray area brain upgrade) 'transition' is pretty interesting as well.

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katharina
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I am enjoying the Buffy 8 comics, but I didn't the Angel one at all. I didn't much like Angel as a show either, though, so that's consistent.
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Rakeesh
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Why do you think that is, Katharina? I'm just curious, about not liking Angel I mean. It's not surprising, though, considering that they're such different shows.
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breyerchic04
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The only Angel episode I've ever been actually interested in was "The Girl in Question"
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Rakeesh
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So for you the greater interest is simply because you dig Buffy as a character, and Angel is not appealing?
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katharina
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I like non-Buffy shows, so that isn't it.

I think it's because it isn't really funny and because I'm not impressed with the character of Angel himself. There are so many disparate characteristics and he's supposed to be all of them, but very few of them ring true for me. I don't buy that he's a character with centuries of experience. The endless angst is tiresome. It's been one hundred years - stop the self-centered moping!

I do like Torchwood, which is basically Russel T. Davies's version of Angel, and I DO buy that Captain Jack has centuries of experience.

It might all come to the fact that David Boreanaz, while indeed worthy of some sort of "Most Improved" award, is not a very good actor and can't quite pull off what his character description asks of him. That colors everything else.

Plus, Fred is boring.

I do like Cordelia and Wesley.

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Lisa
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Torchwood = Angel?
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katharina
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immortal, centuries-old star, rag bag team of experts, billowy coat king of pain, spin off from another, lighter (theoretically) show, fighting usually supernatural crime

Yeah.

Except there is more sex in Torchwood. *tiny text* And the lead is better in every way.

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Rakeesh
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Katharina, of course I didn't mean that the only reason you didn't like it was because you only liked BtVS and other shows were inadequate. I've seen you on Dr. Who for example:p

I'm mixed on Boreanaz, but then again Angel was never my favorite character on Angel anyway. It's worth mentioning for me that my favorite seasons of Angel are once Wesley gets in the game, though I did dig Doyle.

Heh, re: centuries of experience, well, I sort of filed that under suspension of disbelief right away with him, even back in Buffy. It was just...weird, that Angel-Buffy relationship. What'd they have in common, anyway?

Now, Marsters and Spike, that's a different story, at least in my opinion.

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katharina
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Oh yeah - Marsters is a great actor and did a fabulous job with Spike. And on Torchwood, for that matter.

There are all sorts of parallels between the two 'verses.

That's part of why I didn't believe the Angel = centuries old thing. Slayer or not, Buffy was a great but normal sixteen-year-old, and their relationship was normal for a teenager but not for a grown man. I know there's a big difference between Rose and the Doctor as well, but Rose left her life and joined the Doctor's - she didn't expect the Doctor to take her to prom and hang out with her at the Bronze. I can't picture that happening at all.

Added: I also resent what the writers did to Spike on Angel. I know the character of Spike changed a lot over the seasons, but on Buffy he was definitely an alpha male, even when "nuetered" as a vampire. I can picture a lot of things happening, but retreating to being a comical sidekick to another vampire is not among them. He may have been love's *****, but he wasn't a sidekick for any other reason. He had to be, though, or else they'd've had to change the name of the show to Spike.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
He had to be, though, or else they'd've had to change the name of the show to Spike.
And the downside would have been...?
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katharina
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That would have been excellent. I'm guessing Boreanaz would have been upset.

See? It all goes back to him.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I actually liked the character Angel a lot more on Angel than on Buffy. Certainly more than I ever liked Buffy, who remained one of my least favorite parts of Buffy throughout the entire series.
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katharina
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I do like Buffy as a character. I found her journey very believable and I liked her as a learning, reluctant leader.

Angel on Buffy...honestly, Boreanaz was so wooden on Buffy that he was barely a character.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I do like Buffy as a character. I found her journey very believable and I liked her as a learning, reluctant leader.
I liked Buffy as a character too (less in the first season where she spent more time whining, but I still liked her), but hell, she was a pretty darn crappy leader. I mean, her heart was in the right place and because of some personal heroism her decisions turned up right, but Anya had the right of it, I think.
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katharina
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Anya was right, but so was Riley ("Make the plan, execute the plan.").

I've blocked out the seventh season. Only the Spike scenes, Selfless, and the finale exist in my personal canon.

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Rakeesh
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Hehe.

Riley was right too, but then again with Riley it was more often, "Make an informed/experienced plan, execute the plan." Buffy knew a hell of a lot about personally fighting the bad guys; when to duck, when to punch, when to kick, and (sometimes) when to run.

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breyerchic04
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I found myself identifying with Anya in seasons 5,6 and 7 way more than I would have wanted to. In season 4 of Buffy she was a very annoying character that I compared to a girl I don't like, but more and more i found her to be me. Without the thousand year old thing.
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Rakeesh
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I note the unusual characteristics of Anya that you don't mention there, breyerchic04, and I'm a bit nervous that you only singled out her relatively low social security number [Razz]
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breyerchic04
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You mean the bunny thing? Yeah I've sort of got that too, look at my sake signature.


Oh you meant the slaying frat boys, well there was that one night...

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Chris Bridges
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Didn't like Angel much on Buffy so we didn't watch Angel right off. It was only after we did see a couple shows and noticed that the other characters were making fun of all the stuff we didn't like about him. "God, why is it so dark in here all the time! Stop with the brooding, it's getting old!"

I liked Buffy initially but as the years went on I think I just got tired of her. Not the actress -- when Buffy was altered ("Beer bad!") or otherwise out of character she was great, and her performance in "The Body" was outstanding -- but the character got a bit tired for me. Fortunately there were lots of other characters to enjoy...

[ April 03, 2008, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]

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plaid
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Yeah. After season 6 and coming back from the dead and having a messed-up relationship with Spike, there just didn't seem to be much new for her to do anymore.

I'm glad they finally had a reference to Anya in the latest issue and that Xander had actually mourned for her. (The idea that Xander mourned her by going and serving Dracula for a few months is somehow goofily fitting...)

I miss Anya, but I don't miss her in the comic. I think she'd be pretty hard to get right in a comic book -- Emma Caulfield really made the character breathe and be strangely likeable.

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plaid
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Wesley warns SLC of zombie attack

Hm.

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plaid
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Ow.

Poor Xander [Frown]

(Poor Renee, too, but, mostly, poor Xander, looks like he's gonna be hanging out with Dracula again...)

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katharina
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I stalled after #12 - that seemed like such a pointless stunt, I lost faith in the writing. I'm fine with exploring new territory, but this was the exact same emotional old territory of season six, except adding in some pandering and wacky next-morning hijinks. Dissapointing. Did it get better again?
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plaid
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I liked 13 and 14, the bits with Dracula were good, and other characters like Willow point out that probably Buffy's going to be dumb and break Satsu's heart.

But as folks in the thread have said, Buffy's not a very interesting character anymore. There's just not much left to do with her. (About the only thing I can think of = having her be a mom, but I doubt they could actually do that well.)

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plaid
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#15 has some great stuff (Dawn, bye to Renee), a couple points where the farce doesn't work, and the Buffy-Satsu dialogue doesn't work at all.

I can see Buffy experimenting with another woman. But they way too quickly had Satsu realize "No, this is a bad idea, I'm moving to Japan."

I think they're having a hard time figuring out Buffy's current attitude to relationships. In season 7 she didn't do much except for a date or two and some friendly cuddling with Spike, and in the last show she tells Angel that she's like cookie dough and that she doesn't have to decide yet. Is that still her attitude? Will she be able to date and have fun without messing up?

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Sachiko
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I think Buffy should date Wesley. They have substantial shared experience; she likes the bad boys, and he's grey/dark enough for her....shared goals....

Of course, I stopped watching Buffy halfway through season 7 and never really got as much into Angel as I'd gotten into Buffy.

It's shameful disloyalty; my oldest daughter is called Buffy.

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EmpSquared
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quote:
Originally posted by Sachiko:
It's shameful disloyalty; my oldest daughter is called Buffy.

I wouldn't worry about that as much as the shameful disloyalty to your daughter.
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Sachiko
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Um, disloyalty in naming her Buffy, or disloyalty in that I should be a fan of the show I named her after?

(it's a good thing it's not her LEGAL first name.)

(I guess that makes it her illegal first name.)

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EmpSquared
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Ahhh. I was just poking fun, but I have to admit a bit of relief that it isn't her legal first name.
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Sachiko
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Yeah, it woudl be really silly to name my daughter after a vampire show.

Her REAL first name is Bella.


[Wink]

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katharina
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I love the idea of Buffy and Wesley. Too bad he's DEAD.
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Sachiko
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Oh, is he?

Yeah....see, I told you I petered out on Angel after the first few seasons. Once they took over Wolfram & Hart I just went, Meh.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Yeah, it woudl be really silly to name my daughter after a vampire show.
My second daughter is named after a character in a webcomic.
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plaid
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:

That's part of why I didn't believe the Angel = centuries old thing. Slayer or not, Buffy was a great but normal sixteen-year-old, and their relationship was normal for a teenager but not for a grown man. I know there's a big difference between Rose and the Doctor as well, but Rose left her life and joined the Doctor's - she didn't expect the Doctor to take her to prom and hang out with her at the Bronze. I can't picture that happening at all.

I didn't have a problem with the Angel/Buffy thing. Originally I figured he was fascinated with her because of the whole Slayer thing (there's only one Slayer after all, and Slayers don't have much of a life expectancy, so enjoy it while you can). Later when they got into the whole Curse thing and how he'd been moping around for 100 years, I figured he could be interested in Buffy because he'd never had any real relationship -- he got bitten when he was young, lost his soul for a few hundred years, didn't do anything with his soul for another hundred years once he DID get it back... so Buffy really was his first real, "normal" relationship.

quote:
Added: I also resent what the writers did to Spike on Angel. I know the character of Spike changed a lot over the seasons, but on Buffy he was definitely an alpha male, even when "nuetered" as a vampire. I can picture a lot of things happening, but retreating to being a comical sidekick to another vampire is not among them. He may have been love's *****, but he wasn't a sidekick for any other reason. He had to be, though, or else they'd've had to change the name of the show to Spike.
Agreed. But given that the show wasn't named Spike, how would you have explained Spike's move to the show? (Especially given that Sarah Michelle Gellar never appeared on the show to have a scene where she rejects Spike?)

Best I can come up with = Spike shows up as a ghost at Wolfram & Hart... he makes a few pathetic phone calls to Buffy, saying he knows that she's busy with some crisis saving the world, but that he'll be there as soon as he's better... then runs off to Italy as soon as he's un-ghosted... then shows back up at Wolfram & Hart a few episodes later, drunk, and we see flashbacks to a few scenes of Spike (with Buffy not seen) looking ill-at-ease in her headquarters while all sorts of important stuff is going on without him and The Immortal intimidates him with his suave charm... then showing a scene where Spike's talking to Buffy's double, and Spike's repeating some things Buffy's said ("You want me to keep an eye on him? Keep Angel on the side of the Angels? Keep Mr. Gloom from getting dragged down into the muck?... Right. Well, I'll do that for you. Especially since it'll annoy him.")

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