posted
My roommate and I have just finished Babylon 5: Season One, and for the most part it was pretty hard to sit through.
The acting and writing is...well...bad. I do like the story and do have fond childhood memories of the show.
So my question is, and I know you've said it before, but I need to be assured: does it get better in Season Two?
I've purposely avoided any descriptions or summaries of the show, since I want to experience it as it was shown on television, so please don't give anything away. I just want to know that it's not going to be as painful as some of the Season One episodes.
[ February 01, 2008, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: The White Whale ]
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yeah, it gets a bit better. IMO, the acting does get better. But then again, it'd be pretty hard to get worse. The writing gets somewhat better, and the plot becomes quite intricate and not bad. It retains its hokeyness.
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I had to muscle through seasons one and two, but there are huge payoffs in season three and four, and it doesn't work if you skip.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Because of their 5 year plan for the plot, much of season 1 is just getting to know the players, with some hints as to the troubles in the future.
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quote: I had to muscle through seasons one and two, but there are huge payoffs in season three and four, and it doesn't work if you skip.
Weirdly, you could say the exact same thing for DS9, if you replace 3&4 with 5&6. Another thing these shows have in common?
I should really try to watch this show sometime. I adore DS9, often just as much for the characters as the story. Is B5 worth battling through the cheese for?
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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In episode 16 of the first season Psi-Corps is mentioned, but it was the second season when they began to introduce the telepaths, both registered and unregistered, and began to develop the friction between them and the governmental group (Psi-Corps) trying to control them. Seasons four and five featured the telepaths in numerous episodes, and brought out their ability to fight the Shadows. There were "free telepaths" in addition to those who were part of Psi-Corps. That whole subplot to me was worth the whole price of admission.
Babylon 5 was far, far better than Deepspace Nine. The former was collegiate level; the latter only high school level (if that).
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I just put B5 on my Netflix queue at the top. I haven't seen it in years and don't really remember much about it, but I LOVE DS9. The first couple seasons are a little dry, but I think it really picks up later on. I don't know which is better, but Ron's description of DS9 does not match my experience. Some episodes are individual flops, like any show, but overall it was quite good, especially in Seasons 4-7, with some individual episodes that blow me away.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alright! The first episode of Season Two is already better than almost all of the last season.
Maybe it's because my roommate and I both had a strong hatred towards Commander Sinclair. He never seemed to really know what was going on. He was either sitting in his quarters watching television, annoying and otherwise harassing his staff, and always seemed a step behind everyone (including my roommate and I).
I'm actually exited to watch the rest of this show now, and I haven't been exited about a show since my first viewing of the Firefly Pilot episode.
Lyrhawn, I don't know how fast you watch shows and if you're starting at the beginning of Season 1 this may not work, but we could attempt to watch some episodes in tandem, across the states between us.
And any one else, too. I haven't had a good group of people watching the same show in...well...ever.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Well, to be honest, if you've already finished Season 1 then that would include "Signs and Portents", "Babylon Squared", "A Voice in the Wilderness", and "Chrysalis." Those particular episodes strongly hint at the quality, direction, and plot of the episodes to come. I would say that if you make it through Season 2 without getting hooked, they you may very well not get hooked.
That said, I would say that Babylon 5 is much better than DS9 on the whole, but on an individual episode level Babylon 5 can be really unpredictable. There are parts of Season 3, 4, and the end of 5 that are miles ahead of where DS9 ever got to. On the other hand there are parts of Season 1 and the first half of 5 that really grate on the nerves.
So on the whole, DS9 is a predictable comfortable popcorn affair but the show never really becomes better than the sum of its parts. However, some of those parts are pretty dang good. Babylon 5 becomes a rather unpredictable show that can put its characters and the viewer through an emotional wringer. But when you add all the parts up, it becomes something quite magical.
If you give some warning, I can actually pick out particular episodes/movies that I would recommend skipping (and have skipped when re-watching the show with a new friend) if you find the show dragging.
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I generally watch shows very quickly. I need to drop my DVDs in the mail, and then Netflix should get the first couple discs to me by the middle of the week, so, I don't know how fast YOU watch, but, by the time the discs stop flowing I'll be into season 2 in a weel probably. Maybe I can catch up, and if so, that sounds like fun.
I'll come back to the DS9/B5 debate after I've seen all of B5.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Back when I had bab5 on tape, I'd put a star by the episodes that moved the plot along or were really good on their own merit. Anything without a star could be skipped without missing anything.
Alas, when I got them on DVD, I threw out all the tapes...
As for DS9... I liked Bab5 better as a whole. It's a novel for TV. DS9 had an arc but it lacked the epicness that was Bab5. (It's still a great show though.)
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Maybe we could choose a few of the best episodes of Season 2 and watch those is some sort of organized manner and discuss those ones, so that those who do not want to watch the bad episodes don't have to.
My roommate and I are determined to work through them all in order, so we could just watch the in between ones on our own.
Is there any interest in this?
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I tried watching the first episode of Babylon 5 once because I'd heard so many good things about it. I think it was one of the worst episodes of TV I've ever seen. Porteiro keeps urging me to try watching it again, and he even gave me a list of which episodes to watch and which to skip, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to do it.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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TWW: Actually, I would not normally mind participating. However, my Babylon 5 DVDs are not at my current home and my upcoming schedule is going to be a bit unpredictable so I am not sure when I will have a chance to get them.
However, I have recently rewatched about 90% of Babylon 5 (during last summer) while introducing a friend to it so it is still reasonably fresh in my mind so I will certainly attempt to contribute to any discussions you may wish to start
PS: "In order" is a bit of tricky thing when it comes to the Babylon 5 universe. The tricky bits are the movies and the two aborted spinoffs. Best to completely avoid those on your first pass unless you really find yourself enjoying Babylon 5. The exceptions are the "In the Beginning" and to a lesser extent "Thirdspace" movies which you can watch at the end of third season if you want to hit those without spoilers.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Some parts of Babylon 5 are timeless. If anything, the storylines surrounding Earth's relations with other species and the Narn/Centauri conflict are eerily more relevant now than in 1994 when Babylon 5 first aired given intervening events like 9/11, Iraq, the immigration debate, etc. However, other elements, especially in Season 1 are getting rather dated.
The problem is that Season 1 is both setup and proving ground. At the time, CGI was no where near where it was now and Babylon 5 pioneered the use of it for all "outside" scenes. On the other hand, DS9 with a much larger budget had a bit of a debate between CGI shots and model shots and essentially switched between the two during Babylon 5's run, even going to the extent of hiring one of the companies involved in creating B5's effects.
The bigger problem in terms of story is that one of the important things that Season 1 had to do was to break many of the conventions that had dominated Star Trek: The Next Generation (the only other real science fiction competitor on tv at that time) and getting the audience to accept them. These include conventions like long continuing storylines (without being labelled a "soap opera", a commonly heard charge in those days) and subverting certain audience expectations.
$ Pseudo-spoiler warning for those that have not watched Season 1 $ $ $ $ That includes stuff like the heroes *not* being able stop the "ticking clock" bomb and that having big consequences later. Getting into ethical dilemmas, making the "right" ethical decision and it turning out to be "wrong" anyways. The fact that mankind is not a real leader in the galaxy and rather than worrying about a Prime directive and affecting other species, we have to worry about other species manipulating us and making our ethical decisions for us.
$$$ End spoilers $$$
Now some of these elements seem everyday after the latter half of DS9 became more plotted, shows like Stargate brought long continuing storylines to the masses, and BSG went with much tighter arcs (at least in Season 1) and real consequences.
However, in B5 these things have to be established in season 1 before the plot can really start breaking the conventions even further in later seasons.
In a way, the slight dating is a good thing. It would be bad if science fiction on TV had not improved since Babylon 5 ended nine years ago, or so.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mucus, yeah. We haven't even looked at the movies. We're sticking just to the series.
And we're watching an episode every day, well, maybe six episodes a week. We would then finish Season two in three or four weeks. He's agreed to commit to that pace.
Lyrhawn, that would allow you to catch up within a week or two and then we could either ramp up our watching pace or something, and we'd be in step with each other.
I don't watch any live television anymore, just what me and my friends have on DVD. I would have no problem amping up the pace if that works best.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: one of the important things that Season 1 had to do was to break many of the conventions that had dominated Star Trek: The Next Generation
Actually having bathrooms in space was definitely one of the highlights of season 1 of B5!
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I just got the first disc in the mail and I'm halfway through it. Seems pretty average so far, the graphics are a little amusing, but I'm used to such better quality that I can't really fault a 10+ year old show for having them look like that, especially when they won awards for good graphics in the 90's.
And what's up with the actors most people have never heard of that LOOK like major movie stars?
I might be done with S1 by the end of next week.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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plaid: Not a bad example actually. Now, bathrooms on tv science fiction are actually present. Firefly had them and BSG even had a great scene in one ("Thats it! No more Mr. Nice Gaius!") So the average viewer now would probably see the bathroom scene and be, "oh, thats kind of a cheap set" *shrug* Of course, at the time it was intended to be sort of a funny nod or poke, a graphical in-joke for viewers of science fiction if you will.
Thats a just a minor example. But I can think of one or two episodes that are really only interesting in that way though, as in they're almost "This is what you would see in a Twilight Zone version of Star Trek." Luckily that kind of thing goes away after first year.
Lyrhawn: Which actors are you referring to? The actor playing Garibaldi kinda struck me as a Bruce Willis-lite at first, but I doubt we're both thinking about him.
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Garibaldi is most definitely a Bruce Willis wannabe.
And we just finished the sixth episode of Season Two, and while some of them have been bad, for the most part they are significantly better that Season 1.
I wish they had more of Kosh though. I rules.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lyrhawn: Wacky parallel thought processes. (at least with Garibaldi, don't see the Sheridan comparison) How did you hear/see Sheridan already? Did you start with the prequel movie or did you skip ahead?
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quote:G'Kar was "The One Armed Man" in the Harrison Ford version of The Fugative. He has since passed on. (As has Dr Franklin)
He was also the Romulan command Tomalok, a reoccuring antagonist in ST:TNG
quote:Vir was in Animal House (I believe)
He was Flounder in Animal House.
quote:Susan's been in a couple of minor movies that didn't go anywhere.
She was Bill's mother in Freaks and Geeks
quote:Lyta (If you're far enough in to know who she is) is a professional stunt woman.
She's also played minor roles in a couple of ST:TNG episodes.
quote:When you get to the end of season 3, yes that IS Laura from little house on the prarie.
With her nose job, I totally couldn't recognize her.
quote:Garibaldi is most definitely a Bruce Willis wannabe.
I said that over and over last time I watched through B5.
----
Last night we picked up our little one from the babysitters, and they were all excited because they were in the middle of the season 3 episode "War Without End".
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Mucus - I've seen bits and pieces of the series before, so I know who Sheridan is. I've just never watched the whole thing straight from start to finish.
And I totally didn't notice that G'kar was Tomalok! Can't believe I missed that one, I knew he looked and sounded familiar.
You're zippin by pretty fast there White Whale, I don't know if I'll be able to catch up with you with the rate Netflix is sending my discs. It'll probably a week or more until I finish S1, and another week to catch up to where you are currently. But I'll try.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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The Gathering (Start with Midnight on the Firing Line, the first episode rather than this "true" pilot) Soul Hunter Infection Deathwalker (maybe) Believers (probably) TKO (must-skip) Grail (maybe)
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I made the following list of episodes to watch (skipping the rest) for Jon Boy, who was already negatively predisposed to B5:
Midnight on the Firing Line 101 SOUL HUNTER 102 BORN TO THE PURPLE 103 THE PARLIAMENT OF DREAMS 105 AND THE SKY FULL OF STARS 108 DEATHWALKER 109 SIGNS AND PORTENTS 113 A VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS, PART 1 118 A VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS, PART 2 119 BABYLON SQUARED 120 CHRYSALIS 122
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I own all five seasons but usually only rewatch seasons 2-4. I didn't like Sinclair's character and his acting was stiff. I recently decided to go back to the first season and I really think it's just Sinclair that got me. Some of the other actors needed a break in time and did get better, but the characters were good from the start. I'm not sure who Sinclair was ever supposed to be. He seemed ruled by the plot.
Plus, it's far more episodic in the early shows and frankly, you can skip a few of them without missing a beat. (I had a list at one time but I've lost it.)
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I started watching in season 2 myself. Luckily, I had a friend who was able to fill me in on what I had missed.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I bought the fourth and fifth seasons of B5 before Christmas, and have been watching them. But then I went back and watched some of the earlier episodes to remind me of what I had forgotten.
So currently I'm watching the very end of Season 4 and the halfway of Season 2 side by side. I have to say, I think when comparing the two there's considerable improvement in the acting of the main characters. I'm not sure if they give great performances in Season 4, but you can see they have grown into their characters. It's way less awkward than in seasons 1 and 2.
When the series was shown on Finnish television the first episode I ever caught was "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum" at the end of Season 2. If you ask me that's the perfect place to start watching the series, because it's a very tightly scripted episode and begins a string of mostly great episodes that lasts all the way until the end of Season 4. (To be honest, I think much of Season 2 before that is just as bad as Season 1.) It's also not too difficult to join the storyline at that point, and if you become a True Fan you can always catch the beginning of the series later.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lyrhawn and Snail, the last episode we watched was "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum." I watched the series sporadically when I was young, and it was this plot that I remember. The acting and special effects are much better than earlier episodes, and I now feel like the makers of the show have hit their stride.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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The series really picked up for me too in the second season.
Season one is rather weak in terms of having some fairly cheesy episodes. Combined with the low production values, such episodes turned me off from watching the entire series. Examples of such episode s are the one with the Soul Hunter or whatever it was, or the fighting match episode. Anyway, I hesitantly gave the series another chance and resumed the first season after a pause of a year. I'm glad I did. It's now one of my favorite shows of all time.
Btw, season 5 is somewhat of an optional season--you can really just only watch the final episode of it, which was originally filmed for season 4 as its finale but pushed back to season 5 when it turned out JMS would get one more season after all.
The reason season 5 is optional is because, as mentioned above, JMS thought 4 would be his last and proceeded stuff season 4 with all the important remaining story lines and events he had envisioned. He didn't have much left over for 5, so the season overall feels somewhat funny compared to 2 through 4. But I feel though it's somewhat redeemed in its second half.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Teshi, at some points, me and my roommate were shouting out the actor's lines before they said it themselves. Now I can understand being able to predict some of the endings and plot twists, but being able to predict dead on the dialogue? Come on!
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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My best friend and I can do that sometimes. It's scary sometimes when we nail it dead on. The really predictable ones aren't that hard to guess.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Thats a clip from "In the Beginning" which was a TV movie prequel made sort of in way that the Stargate SG1 movies are now.
Its best to watch that at least after Season 2 (or at least the first few episodes of S2) but it is quite good.
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^What he said. I believe it's merely the depiction of material we were informed of through seasons 1-4, but my memory could be faulty and it could contain more revelations. Anyway, it's VERY spoiler laden for someone who hasn't seen seasons 2 through mid season 4!
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Right, the framing story ties into Season 3 and there's a bit of season 4 too now that I look it up. the_Somalian is right, best to wait till after season 4 (although I have used it once to introduce a very reluctant viewer to Babylon 5 since it is very good (miles ahead of The Gathering as an introduction to the show) and is the only one of the tv movies that is "must-see")
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