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Author Topic: Summer Olympics 2008: Beijing
Puffy Treat
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I feel sympathy for the poor, talented girl deemed not "perfect" enough to appear on camera.
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Mucus
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Damn! I wish I had wrote it down, but I suspected while watching that fireworks sequence that it was CGI. The city looked washed out, the shot too smooth, and the fireworks too precisely in the shot. I actually said that but the people I was with disagreed [Frown]

I'm not too upset since I did really suspect it though.

The lip sync thing is just plain obnoxious. I wonder if Zhang Yimou had anything to do with it (what, you don't think that Gong Li's breasts normally look like that, do you?).

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amira tharani
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I think it's time to add a British voice in here - was anyone else watching Gail Emms and Nathan Robertson put out the Chinese 2nd seeds in the badminton today? They looked down and out after the second game in which they blew an 11-7 lead to lose 21-16, and then the Chinese had an 11-6 lead in the third (at which point I switched channels, thinking it was all over). When I switched back the score was 19-18 to the Brits - they scored 5 straight points from 17-12 down, and eventually won 21-19! Amazing result!

I didn't get to see the gymnastics final - I'll have to go and hunt for that on bbc iplayer later. - it sounds pretty impressive and the womens final sounds like it might be just as good.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
The lip sync thing is just plain obnoxious. I wonder if Zhang Yimou had anything to do with it (what, you don't think that Gong Li's breasts normally look like that, do you?).
They don't?! Wait, how could you possibly know this Mucus?

I had a huge crush on her a few years ago, so you better have some solid evidence.

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Mucus
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I was referring to the controversy surrounding Zhang Yimou's Curse of the Golden Corset thing.

If you still retain your crush, I think its perfectly safe. Gong Li is attractive either way.

Personally, I wouldn't have picked Zhang to do the ceremonies, I would have picked Stephen Chow of Shaolin Soccer fame. At least soccer is an Olympic sport. But mainlanders do seem to like picking Zhang to do these kinds of productions.

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Redskullvw
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I thought Spitz was good. Phelps is simply without a peer or equal.
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James Tiberius Kirk
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code:
while (olympics) {
phelps.MedalCount++;
}

--j_k
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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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How about those girls. It's not always about winning.I can't even imagine the pressure on those young shoulders. They can hold their heads up high.

[ August 13, 2008, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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Blayne Bradley
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code:
while (olympics) {
phelps.MedalCount++;
}

Fail.

code:
bool OrderedList::Insert( /* in */ int key, /* in  */ Info  info )
{
Item temp;

if ( IsFull() || Search( key, info ) )
{
return false;
}

items[size].key = key;
items[size].info = info;
size++;

for ( int count = 0; count < (size-1); count++ )
{
temp = items[count];
counter = count;
while (( int counter > 0 ) && ( items[counter-1].key > temp.key ))
{
items[counter] = items[counter-1];
counter = counter - 1;
}

items[counter] = temp;
}
return true;

}

Ordered lists ftw.
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Elmer's Glue
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Is that supposed to look like tiny gibberish?

That one girl must feel terrible. It was entirely her fault that our women's gymnastics team lost the gold.

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Belle
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It's not as if she doesn't know it, Elmer's.

Alicia Sacramone is a veteran, she's 20 (I know, ridiculous, but in gymnastics that makes her the oldest and most experienced). She knows she messed up. It will haunt her forever and I feel awful for her.

I'm still proud of them. I know it's not the result they wanted, but doggone it, it's hard to compete against a machine like Chinese gymnastics.

I was stunned when Tim Daggett said they start elite training at 3. That's ridiculous. In the US, you can't start that type of competing until you're 10. We have USA Gymnastics, which oversees all sanctioned gymnastics in the country and mandates when girls can begin certain types of competition. The reason is to reduce injury and risk and have the safest and fairest competition possible.

For every Chinese gold medalist, how many had catastrophic injury because they were pushed too far and too young? The idea of training that intensely that young sickens me. Did you hear the story about the girl who wanted to quit gymnastics and come home, and her parents refused to allow it? Or that it's common for gymnasts to only see their parents once a year?

Winning the gold was going to be tough anyway because we started out 2 points behind due to difficulty. Part of that was losing Chellsie Memmel to injury - she had a higher rated beam routine than Alicia and would have competed on beam. Part of that was also losing Sam Peszek on bars, where she likely would have competed in place of Shawn Johnson who is not a really strong bars worker. But, the fact is we were behind before we stepped on the mat because China's girls were throwing ridiculous skills because they've been trained much harder from a much younger age.

Given all that, we should be proud of the silver. And if the silver is the price we pay for the fact that our gymnasts are 1) the proper age and 2) actually know who their parents are, I'll take the silver proudly.

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Mucus
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Chinese parents drive kids hard, news at 11 [Wink]

But seriously, with 1.3 billion people, everything is very competitive in China.
People with use any edge they can to get ahead and the one-child policy can often exacerbate the problem. In North America, the difference between gold and silver might mean the difference between 100K advertising contracts and a 20K advertising contract. In China, the disparity would probably be even greater with the latter ending in poverty and obscurity.

Combine that with no safety, no anti-discrimination laws, and you can get pretty tragic and awful things going on.

I don't think that will really quickly change until China becomes much more prosperous, the population curve starts to edge down, and people can afford the luxury of losing.

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
Given all that, we should be proud of the silver. And if the silver is the price we pay for the fact that our gymnasts are 1) the proper age and 2) actually know who their parents are, I'll take the silver proudly.
I agree. I also think that Sacramone is a good gymnast with a lot of heart.
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katharina
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The picture of them getting the medals made me so sad. The other five girls were beaming, but she looked still upset and like she wanted to kick something, possibly herself.
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theresa51282
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I thought the NBC interview with Alicia was just downright cruel. I had a hardtime even watching. Clearly, she felt terrible and blamed herself. How many times are you going to make her say that she felt awful. I am glad her teammates were so supportive. I am really proud of them. I think Shawn and Nastia will do well in the all around.

I have to say I am disappointed in Bela Karolyi. I have always had a soft spot for him and think his exuberance is contagious but he just seemed bitter last night talking about the age of the Chinese gymnasts. I found it especially hard to take because he has long ago admitted that most of his Romanian team had there ages altered in order to compete. I'd like to see the age rule lowered or lifted entirely. It is not enforceable except on a national level and when nations don't want to comply they simply don't. Even beyond that, if they don't compete but still are practicing all the skills and doing them domestically the risks are still very high.

I am looking forward to the men's all around tonight. I hope Horton has a great night. He was so fun to watch in the team competition. I love when athletes are simply excited to do there best. I don't think he'll medal but if he does his best that would be great!

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MrSquicky
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quote:
People with use any edge they can to get ahead and the one-child policy can often exacerbate the problem.
I was under the impression that this was the Chinese government's official policy, but the way you're presenting it makes it seem otherwise. Is that correct?
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BannaOj
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I think Karolyi is bitter, because since he did coach under the same circumstances, he knows *exactly* the psychological advantage the younger kids have. They don't have the same fear of failure that the would otherwise. They simply haven't lived long enough. So the bitterness comes because the playing field isn't level. I don't know if it is possible to know what he thinks, about whether it is truly "ok" to compete girls that young or not. If he honestly thinks the damage that they might have to deal with for the rest of their life is worth the performance or not. He's seen the consequences both ways, but I doubt we will ever know what his "real" opinion is.
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katharina
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When the 16-and-over rule start? I seem to remember an American gymnast who was only 14.
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Mucus
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MrSquicky: I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "this." If you're referring to the policy of aggressively taking children to train at very young ages, then I think its a complex combination of government policy, culture, and economics.

For example, as Belle hinted I would not be surprised if the parents were totally in support of sending away their kids for intensive training, starting as early as possible, or staying away to not be a distraction.

Its a part of a cultural attitude that still persists to a great degree in the Asian Canadian community. Honestly, it has both good and bad aspects, its all a matter of perspective.

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MrSquicky
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Mucus,
That was what I'm talking about. As for it being a complex mix, no doubt, but it is, if I got it right, something that the government is going to do even if the parents don't agree.

Though many of the parents may agree with this, I doubt that this is uniform (especially among the ones that get back a 6 year old crippled from the intense training) and those who do not agree don't really have any recourse.

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Mucus
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What I'm commenting on is a series of historical and cultural precedents for this kind of brutal and punishing training. As one example, training for the imperial examinations in China was extremely high pressure. You would start at a very very early age and a whole family, even a village would have to pitch in and support them. There were no consolation prizes, either you pass and become a bureaucrat with all the money, power, and respect that entails in those days or you come home with nothing disappointing your whole family. This system probably lasted for more than a thousand years. In fact, it was a failed student that turned to Christianity and started the Taiping Rebellion, thats how brutal and twisted the pressures could be in that kind of environment.
Even today in certain well-to-do cities China, if you place well on citywide examinations in normal school, you get the privilege of being sent to an elite city school where you intensively study and board away from your parents. I think turning it down is completely unheard of.

This is only part of the cultural background that informs athletic training. These days, it is not as though the Chinese government can go around DNA testing to find potential athletes and then kidnap them away for training. Rather parents probably scrape and save money in order to put their kids in training just for the chance of being spotted and getting a chance to get ahead. When the government spots their kids, it must feel like a dream come true. With incomes like they have in China, probably few families can afford to send their kids to training for "fun". As I said before, thats a *luxury* that we have in the Western world.

Honestly, I'm no expert on gymnastics, I am hesitant to speculate more, and if you have access to an online article about the Chinese system I would be happy to review it. But I'm just saying that while the government can be blamed for many things, there are many other factors that feed into this particular system.

Edit to add:
Two examples
quote:

Each year a team of coaches selects 150 snotty-nosed four-year-olds from all the nursery schools in the city of Shanghai. Chen does not usually pick the child who jumps the highest or is the fastest runner in the school playground. He prefers to ask parents: "Is your son a little devil?" before they hurry to point out how well behaved their little child is, unwittingly ruining his chances of being picked. "What we are looking for are disobedient children because those are the ones with the extra energy to offer," says the coach. "A bit more sacrifice to contribute."
...
A first group of pre-selected children must put up with an hour and a half of gruelling testing in order to ascertain whether they are sufficiently resistant to pain despite their tender years. Their parents are, according to Chen, often unable to stand seeing their children suffer, and rush off home with them. "Those who stay behind have the chance of being champions," says the chief coach.

link
quote:

Cheng's road to Beijing began in central China, here in Hubei Province, a bleak industrial region where her father worked as a shipping clerk and her mother toiled in a tire factory.

She was born in 1988, an only child in a nation with a one-child policy. From the beginning, her parents say, she looked like a boy, so they treated her like one. Her father, a disciplinarian who had studied martial arts, pushed her from an early age, even pressing her to do calisthenics every morning before primary school classes began.

"I trained her like a military soldier," said her father, Cheng Ligao, who now owns a shop in Huangshi. "She followed me step by step and I shouted to her, 'One-two, one-two...."'
...
At one point, Cheng pleaded with her parents to let her quit and return home. "We asked her to hold on because we had invested so much and lived so bitterly," her mother said.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/05/sports/gymnast.php?page=2

[ August 13, 2008, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Mucus ]

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MrSquicky
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Here's an article I found that largely backs up what you are saying. Honestly, it's not something I know that much about. I'm going from impressions here. I had thought that thre were local sports officials whose job it was to screen young school students for athletic potential, who are then given little choice but to join the athletic program in whatever sport the government decides and then trained untill they are dismissed, are gravely injured or die, or become sucessful olympic athletes. The article I found implies that there is more choice involved than had expected.

I was expecting that, by and large, the athletes and their families would go along with the cultural and economic push towards this. I know enough about Chinese psychology to know that they are very different in this respect than Westerners. But, and I can't recall where I picked this up, I was under the impression that there were known cases where a promising child was basically kidnapped from their unwilling parents in order to be trained as an olympic contender.

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lobo
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmer's Glue:
Is that supposed to look like tiny gibberish?

That one girl must feel terrible. It was entirely her fault that our women's gymnastics team lost the gold.

It is NOT her fault. Even if she would have nailed her routines and got the highest score on our team, we still wouldn't have won. The chinese won by 2.375 points. She was 1.075 points lower than the highest beam girl and 1.075 points behind the highest floor girl (on our team). That adds up to 2.15; we still would have lost by .225 points. Pretty sad to see all the piling on...
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
When the 16-and-over rule start? I seem to remember an American gymnast who was only 14.

From what I understand about this, the rule is that one must turn 16 at any point during the Olympic year, so there are a few 15-year-olds competing. I'm pretty sure this rule came into effect within the past year and a half - but don't quote me on this. I'm just trying to synthesize all the reports I've heard/read about it.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
In fact, it was a failed student that turned to Christianity and started the Taiping Rebellion, thats how brutal and twisted the pressures could be in that kind of environment.
Mao also failed the exams and that was a big part of why he started down the path he did. In fact I remember reading several times that Hong Xiu Quan was a hero of Mao.

And now for alittle self aggrandizing, I edited some things in Hong Xiu Quan's wikipedia article. Specifically I added a citation to the statement that Hong had a demon slaying sword crafted for him and his friend.

edit: I read some things similar to what Mr Squicky was mentioning regarding conscripted athletes. It was in Time magazine a few weeks ago I believe, if not it was in Newsweek. The harsh mode of training certainly can't be blamed squarely on the government as that tradition is hundreds if not thousands of years old. If you watch Farewell My Concubine there is a very long sequence of scenes detailing what children endured to "perhaps" become opera/ballet stars. It's very hard to watch but I honestly believe that it was very common.

I've mentioned this before but on the news in Hong Kong they once took their cameras to a ballet school in mainland China and filmed the training methods and it was extremely abusive, both physically and especially emotionally. Although the end result overall is depressing you cannot deny the prowess of many of their star dancers.

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Mucus
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Sounds about right.

I took a look for articles via Google News for articles in Time and Newsweek. No real luck finding anything too similar, if either of you come across it again, I'd be curious.

There was an interesting profile on a gymnast that was disabled in Time though
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/12/sports/OLYDISABLED.php

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Blayne Bradley
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I'm actually not sure if Mao failed said exams, recall that his youth carried him through the turbulent times of the Xinhua revolution and the warlord era "his path" wasn't one of some clerical fanatic, it was a military-politico career similar to Caesar, grabbing one opportunity after another and interestingly enough almost always when others isolate him.

What I mean there is that several times Mao loses "power" or "authority" in some sense just after a success and almost always things start going badly and so they go back and ask for his help again using each opportunity to gain more and more authority.


quote:

The eldest child of a relatively prosperous peasant family, Mao Zedong was born on December 26, 1893, in a village called Shaoshan in Xiangtan County (湘潭縣), Hunan province. His ancestors migrated from Jiangxi province during the Ming Dynasty, and had settled there as farmers. His father was Mao Jen-sheng, a peasant farmer. Wen Chi-mei, his mother, was a very devout Buddhist. Due to his family's relative wealth, his father was able to send him to school and later to Changsha for more advanced schooling.

During the 1911 Revolution, Mao enlisted as a soldier in a local regiment in Hunan which fought on the side of the revolutionaries. Once the Qing Dynasty had been effectively toppled, Mao left the army and returned to school.[7]

After graduating from the First Provincial Normal School of Hunan in 1918, Mao traveled with Professor Yang Changji, his high school teacher and future father-in-law, to Beijing during the May Fourth Movement in 1919.

Professor Yang held a faculty position at Peking University. Because of Yang's recommendation, Mao worked as an assistant librarian at the University with Li Dazhao as curator. Mao registered as a part-time student at Beijing University and attended many lectures and seminars by famous intellectuals, such as Chen Duxiu, Hu Shi, Qian Xuantong, etc. During his stay in Beijing, he read as much as possible, and through his readings, he was introduced to Communist theories. He married Yang Kaihui, Professor Yang's daughter who was his fellow student, despite an existing marriage arranged by his father at home. Mao never acknowledged this marriage. In October 1930, the Guomindang (GMD) captured Yang Kaihui with her son, Anying. The GMD imprisoned them both and Anying, then, was later sent to his relatives after the GMD killed his mother, Yang Kaihui. At this time , Mao was living with a co-worker, He Zizhen, a 17 year old girl from Yongxing, Jiangxi.[8] Mao turned down an opportunity to study in France because he firmly believed that China's problems could be studied and resolved only within China. Unlike his contemporaries, Mao concentrated on studying the peasant majority of China's population.

On July 23, 1921, Mao, age 27, attended the first session of the National Congress of the Communist Party of China in Shanghai. Two years later, he was elected as one of the five commissars of the Central Committee of the Party during the third Congress session.

Alot of text, but it doesn't appear to be any reference to poor grades as a motivator for "turning to the darkside". If anything from the books I've read he was considered the family scholar-to-be.
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Blayne Bradley
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For 2010, the Chinese curling team will have a huge advantage, they're so far one of the few teams allowed to be and training in Vancouver right now.
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TheBlueShadow
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For the gymnasts/parent's of I have a question.

Why are there only four events for women's gymnastics but six for men? I get that the differences between men and women lead to different events but why not have more events for the women?

quote:
Given all that, we should be proud of the silver. And if the silver is the price we pay for the fact that our gymnasts are 1) the proper age and 2) actually know who their parents are, I'll take the silver proudly.
I'd also like to agree with this.

The Australians did fantastic in the Women's 4x200m Freestyle Relay, and I was shocked China and the US were able to close that gap as much as they did.

I've had fun watching swimming this year. Phelps' medal run has been fantastic. I hope he can keep up the endurance. Though the NBC commentators are a little too obsessed with him, we didn't even get to hear any of the interview with the other members of the US 4x200 men's team. I love watching him swim but way to pick favorites NBC.

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Elmer's Glue
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I'm guessing it is because there just aren't any other good events for them to compete in. What would you suggest they add, Ribbon Twirling?
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Lyrhawn
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Tomorrow night should be good. Phelps is swimming for his next gold, and Shawn Johnson and Nastia Liukin will be competing in the women's individual all around. I believe Johnson is the reigning world champion in the all around, and Liukin is also a medal favorite.

My brother's future brother in law races in the semifinals for Men's 4 Man Sculling (rowing) in about an hour and a half.

Track and Field starts soon!

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmer's Glue:
I'm guessing it is because there just aren't any other good events for them to compete in. What would you suggest they add, Ribbon Twirling?

That's already an event, but for rhythmic, rather than artistic gymnastics.
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Elmer's Glue
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That's lame. What will they add next? Ping pong? BB guns?
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Kwea
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Already have them......


Just in case you didn't know.

[Wink]

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Lyrhawn
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Trampolining is a sport too. Personally I don't agree with some of the things that are medal competitions. Most of the things for the Winter Games I'm okay with. There's a lot in the Summer Games that I could easily be happy with being gone.

But whatever, I guess if there are really that many people who want to learn and excel at whatever sport we're making up next, then more power to them. I think I draw the line at Olympic Quidditch though.

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Belle
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quote:
For the gymnasts/parent's of I have a question.

Why are there only four events for women's gymnastics but six for men? I get that the differences between men and women lead to different events but why not have more events for the women?

quote:
I'm guessing it is because there just aren't any other good events for them to compete in.
I'm guessing it's because all the events are designed to measure strength, flexibility, power, balance, and control of the body and the four events do that quite nicely already for the women. There's no real need to add anything else.

Some things I've learned about gymnastics over the years my daughter has been training and competing have really surprised. One - beam is usually the easiest event to train. I know it doesn't seem that way, but you have to realize you rarely do anything on the beam that you don't already know how to do on the floor. There's no real new skill to learn, you just have to learn how to land it on the beam.

I'm not trying to say beam is easy - it's obviously not and it does carry the most risk, because even something you've landed ten thousand times correctly in the gym can go wrong (ask Alicia Sacramone) but my point is that learning something new on the beam goes pretty quickly compared to other events because you already know how to do the skill. Not to mention that when new skills are learned on the floor, coaches are already looking forward to the beam and so the skill is taught with an eye for getting the gymnast to land it in a perfectly straight line on the floor.

Second thing I've learned - bars is hard. Wicked hard. It's the event that causes most girls in our gym to quit. They leave the gym because they can't advance to the next level and the reason they can't advance is bars.
They'll have every other skill they need in every other event but not bars. It's not as if we have a bad bars coach either - he's renowned for his bars coaching and has coached numerous state champions in that event. It's just very hard. It takes a perfect combination of upper body strength, abdominal strength, flexibility, balance and a timing. Those are hard to get all working together at the right time.

Some people are born bar workers. My daughter is one - she just has an instinct for the timing and is a very good "swinger" - she maintains her straight body lines in the air. Now, the tradeoff is that she is NOT a very good dancer or tumbler so her floor exercise scores tend to be pretty low. The all-around gymnast like Shawn Johnson and Nastia Luikin who can be exceptional in every event is so rare. (not that I'm even thinking of comparing my daughter to one of those two - trust me, she is not in the same stratosphere!) Bars always looks so effortless when people like Shawn Johnson and Nastia Luikin do it, so I was shocked to find out how hard it is to learn that event and progress to the next level.

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Lyrhawn
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Thanks for the insider point of view Belle, that was interesting. On the women's side, I always thought vault and beam looked like the hardest, especially for the kind of stuff Shawn Johnson does. Vault looks hard to learn though, I mean, I can't imagine how a girl or guy feels the first time they have to just go for it and flies through the air. It also seems like there is a high risk of injury from botched attempts.

I'm curious as to how guys and girls could do each other's events. I don't think women could really do the rings. That's just raw upper body strength. I think in that respect, it's one of thsoe events that complements the gender that has to do it, as upper body strength is more respected and prized in men than women.

I might be curious to see women do the pommel horse and men do the beam. That'd be interesting.

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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I don't want to see men on the beam.
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Belle
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quote:
Vault looks hard to learn though, I mean, I can't imagine how a girl or guy feels the first time they have to just go for it and flies through the air. It also seems like there is a high risk of injury from botched attempts.

Yeah, there is a certain amount of fear to overcome the first time you run headlong down a runway at top speed and hurl yourself at a stationary object!

What surprised me about vault is how technical it all is. I mean, it looks like you just run and hit the springboard (at this point I'm not talking about the vaults where they do a round off and go on the table backward). I had no idea there were marks on the vault runway for each gymnast - a "number" based on a tape measure that is beside the runway. Gymnasts always start in the exact same place - they run the exact same number of steps so they can hit the springboard on the same step and with the correct foot extended.

My daughter's coach changed her lead foot and she was unable to vault for a long while - she'd run down the runway, then stop because it felt wrong -she couldn't get her head around leading with the other foot. She finally got it though. [Smile]

The good news is the new vault table is much safer than the old horse they used to use. Injuries in vault have gone way down. This table is shaped so that collisions aren't nearly as catastrophic as they were before.

Still, it's a difficult event to be sure. Much more precision involved than I imagined. Of course, my daughter is nowhere near the level that does the round-off back handspring vaults - that one is far more technical than the front handspring ones she does now.

They train vault very gradually, they start off just vaulting on to stacks of mats, and only later move up to using the table. When they do, their coach is always right there to stop them if they are headed into the table wrong, and able to spot them in the handspring over the top of the vault. They often land in "the pit" a sunken area of floor filled with really soft, squishy mats. They don't move them to the harder mats until they've got it down pat.

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brojack17
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
quote:
Vault looks hard to learn though, I mean, I can't imagine how a girl or guy feels the first time they have to just go for it and flies through the air. It also seems like there is a high risk of injury from botched attempts.

Yeah, there is a certain amount of fear to overcome the first time you run headlong down a runway at top speed and hurl yourself at a stationary object!
I always think of this when I see them vault. (Work Safe)
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Samprimary
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I love all this controversy with all of these Chinese gymnasts who are all obviously 16 years old (why would you ever suspect otherwise) and absolutely no younger than that, definitely not 13.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I love all this controversy with all of these Chinese gymnasts who are all obviously 16 years old (why would you ever suspect otherwise) and absolutely no younger than that, definitely not 13.

Either my sarcasmometer is giving me a false positive, or my sincerigauge is simply not functioning properly.

I assume you are being sarcastic, I too seriously doubt those girls are 16 even if we take into account that Chinese calculate years with newborns being 1 year of age.

There were many instances in Hong Kong where rival Chinese schools did the opposite, saying high schoolers were in junior high, and 20+ year olds were in high school.

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James Tiberius Kirk
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Gold/silver. Cool. (:

--j_k

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Belle
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I'm very pleased with the outcome. I wanted them to go 1 and 2, and didn't care which way it went.

Shawn Johnson is an amazing gymnast, but Nastia just has the advantage in the artistic portion of the event called artistic gymnastics.

Both of their beam scores were undervalued, if you ask me, but both put up amazing performances on floor ex.

Good for them - they both worked hard to get there and deserve it. [Smile]

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Carrie
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I was definitely rooting for Shawn Johnson, because I like her style more - big, powerful tumbling is more exciting to me. I thought her beam was a bit underscored, especially compared to the Chinese girl who went after her... but it's important to note here that I have no idea what goes on in judging the routines, except that wobbling and/or falling off are bad. [Smile]

Either way, I'm glad the Americans went 1/2.

(And here, I need to register my disappointment in all the gold-medal winners I saw today who either don't know the words to the [US] national anthem or appear to consider themselves above singing it out loud. Maybe they're singing it in their heads or something. Or maybe it's just not a big deal anymore to someone like Michael Phelps. Either way, I like the people who sing along better.)

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Kwea
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Carrie, I made almost the same comment about singing to my wife earlier today during the presentation for swimming.
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Lyrhawn
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It looked like Nastia was trying, but I think she was going back and forth from trying not to cry and trying to sing the anthem.

I was a bit surprised Soni didn't sing it. You'd think that someone who was such a total come from behind victory that was never supposed to be there or be a contender for a medal would have felt the need to make the most of it, but maybe the enormity of the situation just totally stunned her. I think it's impossible to imagine how they feel up there.

But all in all, I too would like to see them sing.

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Kwea
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Soni did look stunned, and she did sing the very last bit of it...but I still thought it was weird that she wasn't singing.


I wanted to shoot the judges though....talk about inconsistent judging. It was almost like they were trying to keep it close or something. Not quite as bad as ice skating judging usually is...at least they got the right winners.

[Wink]

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Lyrhawn
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Seriously. Even someone who just tuned in for the first time would have been able to see how off the judging was, especially on the beam.

In other news: The US 4 Man Sculling team (with my brother's fiancee's brother on it) just advanced to the medal race which will happen on Sunday morning. They'll be facing Germany, Italy, France, Poland, and a fifth team I can't remember. Poland has been dominant in this race for a long time, but the US showed themselves a surprise contender when they upset Poland earlier this year at the World's. The US finished behind Italy but ahead of France in the semis, and it should be a crazy strong race on Sunday.

Track and Field is officially under way as well!

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Belle
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If you look closely at her beam routine (Shawn's) you can see deductions. The standing full is a crazy skill, but she finished it with her chest down - that can be up to 3 tenths. Also, on the ridiculous tumbling pass at the beginning - there are slight leg separations in the back handsprings and they can take a tenth on each one - which means they can take two tenths there.
Her extensions in her split leaps might be a fuzz under 180 or just at 180, where as Nastia is usually over 180.

I mean, it's all little stuff, but little stuff adds up.

I'm not saying it wasn't still undervalued, just that those "style" points that Shawn misses because she's more of a power gymnast than an artistic one can nickel and dime her to death.

Shawn scores really high in the US because we love crazy skills and big risks and power tumbling. To bring in the men - Justin Spring scores well inside the country for the same reasons. Internationally, the judges like clean lines and flexibility and good extension more than power. That's why both Justin and Shawn will tend to score lower on the International gymnastics stage and gymnasts like Nastia and Sasha Artemev will score higher.

Still, Shawn could have beaten Nastia had she stuck everything and performed a more difficult bar routine. Starting out a full point behind Nastia on bars was just too much to make up. Her big advantage - vault - she didn't capitalize on because of the big crossover step on the landing.

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