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Author Topic: LDS Community and marriage
Flying Fish
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No, I'm being serious. The point of the first one is to teach the child how to go to sleep alone, in his or her own bed. The point of the second is to not reinforce the expectation that every little pain is a reason to stop moving forward and receive unlimited comfort (kind of like the earlier commentor who said that it's possible to "make a kid who is helpless"). The point of the third is that Mom (or Dad, or an older sibling or relative who is cooking) is not a short-order cook making everybody in the house exactly what they want to have that night.

And the key to your comment is "for some families." I fully acknowledge that the principles I found most valuable aren't for everybody.

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scifibum
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I think sympathy has a place but it should be calm and appropriately sized. A scraped knee might not merit much beyond "Ouch! That looks like it really hurts. That's too bad. Let's clean that up so it doesn't get infected (sorry kid this is going to hurt some more)."

But some things are terrifying and difficult for kids beyond what they can usefully learn from them. My middle child had a difficult day at a hospital (suspected meningitis) during and after which I was not at all restrained in my sympathy and efforts to comfort him (thank goodness it was just an afternoon).

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
Are you saying that if you continually see someone do something you're convinced is wrong and hurtful you should ignore it if you don't think you can change their minds?

"Well, the South is really committed to slavery -- let's just let them be."

I would say with slavery, you should speak up. But I am not convinced how much harm Tatiana's belief that she is the man's mother actually does.
Exactly. You're not convinced -- so don't speak out against it. That doesn't give you the moral high ground to correct someone who perceives the amount of harm she's doing differently than you do.
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Flying Fish
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Scifibum, I can't imagine anything more scary. I'm not saying that when one of my kids gets a hangnail I'm not tied up in knots. I just can't let them know that for each and every hangnail. And in a situation like what you said, you give them every sympathy possible. Did he get ice cream on the way home?
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Belle
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I think many times a child responds as much to YOU as to the pain. So, if a toddler falls and your reaction is "You're okay, get back up," you'll often find the child pulls himself back up and keeps toddling around the room. But, if he falls and your response is "Oh no! are you okay?" and you run and snatch them up to "comfort" them the child thinks there must indeed be a reason to be scared and upset and that is a self-fulfilling prophecy - they become scared and upset.

So, I guess I mean I get what Flying Fish is saying here. I'm not a big reactor either. In fact, now that my kids are all 8 years old or older, my response to a kid who says "Mommy, I fell down!" is often "Is it bleeding?" If no, I say, "You'll be fine." If yes, I say "Go wash it off and I'll get a bandaid."

Then again, it's quite possible that I am just plain heartless. [Big Grin]

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scifibum
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He was too exhausted for ice cream, but did what we could.
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steven
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"afr, I had the same thing happen to me when I adopted a teenager."

Tatiana, please have mercy on us all and shut the heck up about your "son". I really thought some folks were being too hard on you, reading what they said on Sake and Entropical...but, after seeing THAT response to afr's post...I gotta say, woman, you need help with something. I don't really think you're all that crazy (heck, I'm a bit bonkers myself), but I definitely think you are annoying the ever-loving crap out of a lot of people here. And now, that group includes me.

Seriously, if I, steven, have to be the one to reign you in...I don't know.

[ May 11, 2009, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: steven ]

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
Then again, it's quite possible that I am just plain heartless. [Big Grin]

I'll join you on that bench. [Big Grin]
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advice for robots
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Slide a cheek, willya?

I'm pretty good at telling when a cry means real hurt and when it's something they can just deal with. I really don't think I'd be doing my kids any favors by jumping up and wringing my hands every time they let a peep.

Still, I am terrified that something horrible will happen to any of my kids, like a car hitting them. Those thoughts scare the crap out of me.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
Slide a cheek, willya?

*double-take*

Ok, I never heard THAT expression before! [ROFL]

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Flying Fish:
The three best pieces of parenting advice I got before I got the kids:

When you put them down for the night, if one cries and says "I'm lonely, I can't sleep, will you hold me? I want to be with you...."
What ever you do, don't pick 'em up. Tell 'em, "Yes you can go to sleep; see ya tomorrow." Then leave. After a week they get the message.

When they fall and get hurt, don't run to them, pick them up, and hug them. Tell 'em "You're not hurt. Get up by yourself."

I could do this but I guess if I did act this way towards them I wouldn't at all be surprised if I got the same dispassionate response when I start whining about how I don't want to live in a crummy nursing home and the food is cold and why do they never visit??
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
Slide a cheek, willya?

*double-take*

Ok, I never heard THAT expression before! [ROFL]

And I still don't get what it means. [Frown]
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imogen
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
Slide a cheek, willya?

*double-take*

Ok, I never heard THAT expression before! [ROFL]

And I still don't get what it means. [Frown]
Make room on the bench. Scoot over. That kind of thing. (Not the cheek on your face...)
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Fish:
The three best pieces of parenting advice I got before I got the kids:

When you put them down for the night, if one cries and says "I'm lonely, I can't sleep, will you hold me? I want to be with you...."
What ever you do, don't pick 'em up. Tell 'em, "Yes you can go to sleep; see ya tomorrow." Then leave. After a week they get the message.

When they fall and get hurt, don't run to them, pick them up, and hug them. Tell 'em "You're not hurt. Get up by yourself."

I could do this but I guess if I did act this way towards them I wouldn't at all be surprised if I got the same dispassionate response when I start whining about how I don't want to live in a crummy nursing home and the food is cold and why do they never visit??
If you think pandering to your child's every whim will make them more likely to care for you in your old age, you have a rude awakening in your future.

Children need to learn independence. They need to learn how to comfort themselves when they are hurt or afraid. Those are important life skills. That doesn't mean you just throw them in the metaphorical pool and let them sink or swim but there is a lot of latitude between that and putting them in the metaphorical padded room so that they never get hurt. I think what people are saying is that it is important for parents to recognize that their instinct to protect their child from all harm is not beneficial to the child in the long run. You have to find a balance. You need to protect them from real danger like beeing run over by a car but allow them to occasionally scrape a knee. You need to lavish them with sympathy when they are really hurt, but not hover over them every time they fall down.

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Her then 7-year-old daughter slid on some loose gravel on the sidewalk, fell, and skinned her knee. She went BERSERK! I mean, I was afraid this girl had broken her leg she was making such a fuss. Her mother spent the next 45 minutes trying to calm her down and eventually, the 7-year-old moped on a bench while her mom played with the younger kids.

I was feeling pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing but didn't say anything. My friend told me, "That's only the second time she's ever gotten a cut.

Don't blame this entirely on the Mother, the personality of the child plays and important role as well. I have a friend whose first child is naturally extremely cautious and safety conscious. He's 6 and has never had scrapes or bruises (well maybe one or two but almost never). His younger sister at 2 is a little hell raiser and is constantly getting scraped and bruised up despite her parents (and older brothers) best efforts to keep her safe. I happened to be there the first time she banged herself up when she was just starting to crawl. Her mother went to pieces (This never happened to her brother), but the mom has since them come to accept that she shouldn't try to protect the girl and is actually kind of proud of her daughters daring spirit.
I'm absolutely certain both mother and daughter have a role in this one, based on dozens of other incidents I've seen over time. I just meant this as a simple example, which of course you're right it never is. The child in question is undoubtedly highly sensitive. Then again, the mother is also very protective, rarely leaves the house, and tends to exaggerate minor things. For example, the same day her younger daughter fell of a swing. She was fine. She picked herself up, brushed herself off, and was halfway across the playground when her mother caught her up and started fussing over the fall. The younger girl then turned on the waterworks to maximize the attention she was getting from her mom.

Don't get me wrong, I know there's a tough balance here. My 3-year-old has lately taken to crying when he gets minor injuries. He never used to. He fell down a flight of stairs once and though i was pretty scared, he just walked away without a word. But lately he's been crying if he bumps his elbow.

I don't know if I'm taking the right approach or not, but I figure if he's crying, there's something he needs from me and even though I know he's not really hurt, I have no problems at all hugging him and kissing it better. IMO, it is a simple enough way to show him that he is loved and that he is safe.

Could be wrong. Parenting is hardly an exact science. [Smile]

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:

Children need to learn independence. They need to learn how to comfort themselves when they are hurt or afraid. Those are important life skills. That doesn't mean you just throw them in the metaphorical pool and let them sink or swim but there is a lot of latitude between that and putting them in the metaphorical padded room so that they never get hurt. I think what people are saying is that it is important for parents to recognize that their instinct to protect their child from all harm is not beneficial to the child in the long run. You have to find a balance. You need to protect them from real danger like beeing run over by a car but allow them to occasionally scrape a knee. You need to lavish them with sympathy when they are really hurt, but not hover over them every time they fall down.

I just posted at the same time as you...but yeah, this is a hard balance to find sometimes. And of course, children don't need to learn to be independent all at one. This will be a gradual process that will occur over the course of many years and begins with a secure attachment to a caregiver. Now, I've known many people who follow something they call "attachment parenting" which isn't an entirely bad approach but some people (that I know personally) seem to take it too far and basically give in to every whim their child has.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by imogen:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
Slide a cheek, willya?

*double-take*

Ok, I never heard THAT expression before! [ROFL]

And I still don't get what it means. [Frown]
Make room on the bench. Scoot over. That kind of thing. (Not the cheek on your face...)
No no I thought all about butts and face cheeks, and I came up with nothing. Thanks for the clarification, I'm not sure I'll ever use that expression as I'd probably start laughing.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Fish:
The three best pieces of parenting advice I got before I got the kids:

When you put them down for the night, if one cries and says "I'm lonely, I can't sleep, will you hold me? I want to be with you...."
What ever you do, don't pick 'em up. Tell 'em, "Yes you can go to sleep; see ya tomorrow." Then leave. After a week they get the message.

When they fall and get hurt, don't run to them, pick them up, and hug them. Tell 'em "You're not hurt. Get up by yourself."

I could do this but I guess if I did act this way towards them I wouldn't at all be surprised if I got the same dispassionate response when I start whining about how I don't want to live in a crummy nursing home and the food is cold and why do they never visit??
If you think pandering to your child's every whim will make them more likely to care for you in your old age, you have a rude awakening in your future.
Perhaps I am as serious when I say that as I am when I exaggeratedly indicate my desire to have my kids grow up in padded hermetic bubbles!
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scifibum
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I don't know why but I'm feeling really excited right now I think it's the cadence of the conversation!
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I'm not sure I'll ever use that expression as I'd probably start laughing.

I know I won't. Not IRL, anyway.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I don't know why but I'm feeling really excited right now I think it's the cadence of the conversation!

I had a cadence once. It was really painful to have removed.
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Tatiana
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Wow, I'm so surprised that all these people who barely even know me seem to have an opinion about my family life! I mean, I don't have any opinions at all about theirs. It's quite astonishing to me to see this. And they talk about me on other forums where I don't even go? How bizarre is that? [Confused]

The reason I keep talking about my son is that mothers do that. You might have noticed that with other parents on the board. Our kids are very important to us, and whenever the subject of families comes up, we tend to talk about them. I'll probably be doing that in the future as well. Please don't let it upset you.

Since I know I'm Sasha's mother, and he knows it, and God knows it, it really doesn't matter too much if some other people decide I'm not, does it? But most important of all, I want you to understand that in no conceivable way is it your place to pronounce upon someone else's family relationships. Even someone you barely know. You step far beyond the bounds of your stewardship when you presume to judge things like that. Please think about that. It's simply not your place.

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Scott R
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I am Tom's uncle.

Thought you should know.

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Tatiana
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Scott R, I wish you great happiness in the relation.
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kmbboots
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Do Sasha's parents know?
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ElJay
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More than do Sasha's parent's know, my question is what does Sasha's birth mother consider her relationship with him?
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Hobbes
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I'm more curious about where I fall in Scott R's family tree.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Scott R
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Pappou!
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Noemon
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ScottR is the Nhggr gnawing at my family tree's roots.
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Scott R
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nom, nom, nom
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ClaudiaTherese
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Jeepers!
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advice for robots
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I'm surprised you haven't heard the expression "Slide a cheek"! I thought it was pretty common. I don't blink an eye at it. I must have thought it was funny the first time I heard it, but that was when I was a kid.

Maybe it's a Minnesota saying?

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Noemon
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Could be. This thread is the first place I can recall having heard it.
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dkw
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Never heard it.

<--- Minnesotan

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advice for robots
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Huh.

*undergoes tiny, strangely disturbing paradigm shift.*

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Christine
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Never heard it, not even from my two good friends from Minnesota. Could ask them, next time I see them.
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Belle
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First time I've heard it too, but I really like it!

I pronounce myself CT's sister, because I've never had a sister and she is singularly awesome. [Smile]

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
I'm surprised you haven't heard the expression "Slide a cheek"! I thought it was pretty common. I don't blink an eye at it. I must have thought it was funny the first time I heard it, but that was when I was a kid.

Maybe it's a Minnesota saying?

I've never heard it either, even from my Minnesota friends but the fact that it followed immediately after rivka's "I'll join you on that bench", made the meaning pretty obvious to me.

If you hadn't admitted it was a common saying, I would have believed it was original.

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Puppy
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RE: Telling kids to go to sleep and leaving the room:

One issue I run into with my kids is the fact that they share a room. If one of them intends to cry loudly about wanting to get up or be comforted, we have to do SOMEthing, or they'll wake up the other one, and no one in the family will sleep all night.

So we try to be tough when we can, and the alternatives we offer to lying in bed and crying are usually along the lines of "be held by Daddy while he watches a boring Daddy show on TV". But just walking out amidst crying and complaints isn't a viable strategy for us.

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twinky
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I hadn't been reading this thread, since I'm not terribly interested in either marriage or parenting, but my brief stop-in has been totally worth it for that exchange between Noemon and Scott R. There's a fair amount of funny in this thread, but that one really got me. [Big Grin]

Noemon: ScottR is the Nhggr gnawing at my family tree's roots.

Scott R: nom, nom, nom

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Puppy:
RE: Telling kids to go to sleep and leaving the room:

One issue I run into with my kids is the fact that they share a room. If one of them intends to cry loudly about wanting to get up or be comforted, we have to do SOMEthing, or they'll wake up the other one, and no one in the family will sleep all night.

So we try to be tough when we can, and the alternatives we offer to lying in bed and crying are usually along the lines of "be held by Daddy while he watches a boring Daddy show on TV". But just walking out amidst crying and complaints isn't a viable strategy for us.

Without any intent to comment on what works best for your family, I'll just offer my different experience -

We found that even for kids sharing a room, drawing a hard line about crying at night was effective. After a very short while the kids learned that they have to stay in bed all night.

The fact that we have yet to do this with our youngest (still has her own room with a crib) shows that for us, it's very much a question of when/if we find it to be WORTH the short term pain of letting her cry in vain in order to get the benefit. We might have a fourth on the way. So I'm going to insist that a couple of months before the new baby arrives we go ahead and teach #3 to settle down and comfort herself at night, because we haven't coped well when there are multiple kids waking up and demanding attention in the middle of the night.

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advice for robots
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
I'm surprised you haven't heard the expression "Slide a cheek"! I thought it was pretty common. I don't blink an eye at it. I must have thought it was funny the first time I heard it, but that was when I was a kid.

Maybe it's a Minnesota saying?

I've never heard it either, even from my Minnesota friends but the fact that it followed immediately after rivka's "I'll join you on that bench", made the meaning pretty obvious to me.

If you hadn't admitted it was a common saying, I would have believed it was original.

I'm beginning to think it is original, even though I know I didn't make it up and I've heard it used many times in my life.

Maybe it's my family? I can't remember who I've heard use it. I could swear it's not my family. I can't imagine anyone in my family saying it.

I'm disappointed. Usually Hatrack is a pretty good cross-section sampling for things like this. [Smile]

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by twinky:
I hadn't been reading this thread, since I'm not terribly interested in either marriage or parenting, but my brief stop-in has been totally worth it for that exchange between Noemon and Scott R. There's a fair amount of funny in this thread, but that one really got me. [Big Grin]

Noemon: ScottR is the Nhggr gnawing at my family tree's roots.

Scott R: nom, nom, nom

[Big Grin]

I laughed aloud at Scott's response.

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:

The fact that we have yet to do this with our youngest (still has her own room with a crib) shows that for us, it's very much a question of when/if we find it to be WORTH the short term pain of letting her cry in vain in order to get the benefit. We might have a fourth on the way. So I'm going to insist that a couple of months before the new baby arrives we go ahead and teach #3 to settle down and comfort herself at night, because we haven't coped well when there are multiple kids waking up and demanding attention in the middle of the night.

The best thing I did to prepare for having a second child was making sure the first one slept well -- even before my pregnancy, which was rough. I got terrible migraines and took an afternoon nap with my toddler many days.

I haven't had to deal with sharing a room, but my kids' rooms are right next door and my son wakes up when my daughter cries. I have not let this affect my sleep strategy. A few painful nights and the whole family got better sleep. [Smile]

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advice for robots
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One rule we've stuck hard and fast to in our home is no kids sharing our bed. They've all learned to sleep in their own beds, and by and large they've gotten pretty good at sleeping all night and going back to sleep on their own if they wake up. In addition, we made a point with all three to get them sleeping through the night as early on as possible. It meant a few nights of terrible, anguished crying for hours on end, in the which we had to tie ourselves down so as not to run to them a la Homer. But they would wake up the next morning smiling at us, and after that our nights would be much quieter. Great for the sanity.

Our kids have been pretty good at sleeping through the younger one crying at night. Maybe we're just lucky that way. I figure I'd sleep better if I weren't responsible for anything that went on at night.

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
But most important of all, I want you to understand that in no conceivable way is it your place to pronounce upon someone else's family relationships.

Doesn't seem to stop you from pronouncing upon Sasha's actual family relationships, claiming to be the mother of a full-grown man who already has a mother.
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Jamio
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:

Children need to learn independence. They need to learn how to comfort themselves when they are hurt or afraid. Those are important life skills. That doesn't mean you just throw them in the metaphorical pool and let them sink or swim but there is a lot of latitude between that and putting them in the metaphorical padded room so that they never get hurt. I think what people are saying is that it is important for parents to recognize that their instinct to protect their child from all harm is not beneficial to the child in the long run. You have to find a balance. You need to protect them from real danger like beeing run over by a car but allow them to occasionally scrape a knee. You need to lavish them with sympathy when they are really hurt, but not hover over them every time they fall down.

I just posted at the same time as you...but yeah, this is a hard balance to find sometimes. And of course, children don't need to learn to be independent all at one. This will be a gradual process that will occur over the course of many years and begins with a secure attachment to a caregiver. Now, I've known many people who follow something they call "attachment parenting" which isn't an entirely bad approach but some people (that I know personally) seem to take it too far and basically give in to every whim their child has.
If my daughter hurts herself, I comfort her if she cries, but I also praise her when she deals with it herself, so she gets just as much attention from me either way. About three times out of four she chooses to get back up without a fuss.

That's what works for me, but I'm from the family bed camp. Not 'cause I think it traumatizes babies to sleep on their own (some people get all militant about that like you might as well drown your kid in the river if you're going to make them sleep in a crib), but because it's so much easier to get back to sleep after nursing if I never have to get up in the first place.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
But most important of all, I want you to understand that in no conceivable way is it your place to pronounce upon someone else's family relationships.

Doesn't seem to stop you from pronouncing upon Sasha's actual family relationships, claiming to be the mother of a full-grown man who already has a mother.
I think it's become clear that Hatrack has little chance of altering the behavior so maybe it's better if we are content with embarrassed silence. I'm not sure, though.
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Scott R
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I'm so pleased at making Noemon laugh out loud, I may be mistaken for someone who isn't apathetic.
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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I think it's become clear that Hatrack has little chance of altering the behavior so maybe it's better if we are content with embarrassed silence. I'm not sure, though.

*awkward pause*
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[Wink]

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