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Author Topic: LDS Community and marriage
Scott R
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I can't find the thread where she talked about adopting him, and without proof...:shrug:

Here's the New Baby thread. Fun with Tatiana starts about halfway down the page.

quote:
how is it not defrauding the insurance company?
I assume that she did this all legally, and that he was adopted with the blessing of the appropriate authorities. If you follow the rules, you're inherently not defrauding the insurance company.
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ElJay
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Eljay, You may not profess to follow Jesus but many of the the people who have posted judgements on Tatiana here do. My post was directed at the

That may be, but I'm the one you quoted.

--------

rivka, I am choosing to look at it as "exploited a loophole" rather than "defrauded" for the most generous possible interpretation of the situation.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
It is a discussion about the words she is choosing to describe the relationship-- words which, according to most of the people in this community, don't mean what she intends them to mean. Because those words conjure powerful images and emotions in other people, when they appear to be misused, there is bound to be a reaction
I know I said I'd bow out but there is a 500 pound guerilla in the room and I need to point it out. Its a load of crap that people are just emotional about misuse of the word mother. Mother's day just passed. I had at least a dozen people at church tell me I was a mother because I have a calling in the primary [Roll Eyes] . We have a boy in our primary whose mother abandoned him at birth and it was clear mother's day bothered him, so I told him he could be my son for the day. It made him smile. Nobody got all emotional about incorrect use of the words mother and son. That isn't what's going on here and we all know it.

The problem people have isn't that Tatiana is using the term mother to describe an unconventional relationship, we use the term that way all the time and nobody objects. The problem people have is that she asked Sasha's birth mother and father to sign a form relinquishing their rights as parents so that she could adopt him. And we know that she was frustrated when his father was reluctant to do this. And I will agree, that is disturbing.

But what we don't know (unless some of you are privy to information that hasn't been posted here) is what his father's objections were or how those objections were resolved. A lot of the parents on the forum presumed that Sasha's fathers objections to signing the forms were the same objections they would have if someone asked them to sign over their children -- but that is pure speculation. We don't know what Sasha's relationship was with his parents either before or since Anne Kate "adopted" him. We don't know how they feel about her calling herself his mother. We don't know whether Sasha thinks of himself as her child. We don't know how this has changed his relationship to his mother and father. For all we know, Sasha parents concerns were fully resolved and they are delighted to have Tatiana mothering their son.

As Elder Oaks said, you can never slice a piece of cheese so thin it doesn't have two sides.

The reason this keeps coming up has nothing to do with obsession about correct use of the word parent. You hit the nail on the head a while back when you started the not so subtle thread about illegitimate surrogate parents. People keep bringing this up because they think that by calling herself Sasha's mother, she is interfering with his relationship with the mother and father who gave birth to him and parented him for years and that she is illegitimately usurping their place. My point is the this is an unrighteous judgement unless you actually know things about Sasha's relationship with his parents and their current attitude toward this arrangement that have never been posted here.

And now I really will stay away.

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Scott R
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Incidentally, can ANYONE find the adoption thread where we first discussed this issue? Tatiana adopted Sasha in the early part of 2008, I think; but there are no hits on her name and the word "adopt" between 2006 and March 2008.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by ElJay:
rivka, I am choosing to look at it as "exploited a loophole" rather than "defrauded" for the most generous possible interpretation of the situation.

That's because you're a nicer person than I am.

I'm curious how you and Scott would see a couple who barely know each other but got married for insurance purposes? Or a green card?

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Xaposert
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quote:
That's hilarious considering you feel free to pass judgment on any and all and get self-righteous about it until it gets turned on a situation that strikes and chord a you don't like it.
What's hilarious, or at least ironic, is that all of us arguing here are guilty of the same crime. It's a feature of human nature, I think.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Incidentally, can ANYONE find the adoption thread where we first discussed this issue?

I believe there were at least two related threads, both of which were deleted.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Incidentally, can ANYONE find the adoption thread where we first discussed this issue? Tatiana adopted Sasha in the early part of 2008, I think; but there are no hits on her name and the word "adopt" between 2006 and March 2008.

That thread was deleted.
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Scott R
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Actually, Rabbit, I started that thread to point at you.

From the "Mommies with New Babies Thread"

quote:
Tatiana, I have a negative reaction to you posting as if you are a new mommy to a new baby.

By my definition, you are not, and he isn't. I'm not denigrating the idea that you CARE for him-- I allow that you do. But he's not a baby. He's a teenager. He's almost an adult. And you're not a mommy, Tatiana, not by my definition. You can be motherly, or even a Mom, or a mother-- but a 'mommy,' in my opinion, is the mother to a very young, dependent child.

Your point about thread drift is a good one, IMO; we shouldn't care about thread drift. That's what we keep telling n00bs.

You've got a history here on this subject, Tatiana. Many people have expressed reservations about your relationship with this boy. Those reservations are going to keep surfacing every time you bring up the subject. Especially if you insist that there's no difference between what biological parents, or long-term guardians, do and what you've done with "Sasha."

I don't mean to discourage you from posting about this kid's difficulties. Apparently, he needs lots of assistance, and if you're helping, more power to you. I hope this community can help you help him. That said, your insistence that he's a baby, and you're his mommy is really problematic for me, to the point that I doubt your trustworthiness on this topic.

That was me, disagreeing about Tatiana's word choice, a year ago. I can't speak for everyone else who has objections. Tom has pointed out, however, that Tatiana could have used the word "ward;" and there are a number of posters in the thread I linked who also confirm that their reservations stem at least in part from the words Tatiana is applying to her relationship with Sasha.
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scholarette
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There might be a thread talking about how angry people were that the original thread was deleted.
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Amilia
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Mother's day just passed. I had at least a dozen people at church tell me I was a mother because I have a calling in the primary [Roll Eyes] .

I HATE that. I am not a mother. Trying to pretend that I am only rubs it it. Which is why I refuse to go to family wards on Mother's Day.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Incidentally, can ANYONE find the adoption thread where we first discussed this issue? Tatiana adopted Sasha in the early part of 2008, I think; but there are no hits on her name and the word "adopt" between 2006 and March 2008.

There is this: http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=051650;p=0&r=nfx

and this:

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=052365;p=0&r=nfx

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Christine
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Regarding judgments: It seems to me that making judgments is a normal part of human existence. When we learn new information, we don't reserve judgment, we immediately try to compare it to the things we already know...to categorize it. Whatever we say openly about the situation, our brains judge as a matter of course.

Now, we do have a choice about what we say and do about these judgments. We can keep them to ourselves. We can share them. We can try to affect change with them (either changing the subject of our judgment or others who may be following a similar course) or we can simply ridicule.

When and how it is appropriate to do any of these things is a complicated gray area of morality that I feel Jesus only touched about very lightly. Most of his followers aren't any more enlightened than the rest of us about when and how to make judgments. He did have some good points, my favorite of which is the classic: "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone." (My apologies if that quote isn't worded perfectly.) I feel certain that everyone who is decrying the open judgment here has, at one time or another, openly judged others. So I find myself wondering if judging is the right word to describe the problems with what are happening here.

I admit that I find it odd when Tatiana tries to compare her parenting experience to mine. Given the style of debate that is typically used on this forum, it seems to me that when someone tries to make a comparison that lacks credibility, it is socially acceptable to challenge it.

The trouble occurs when these challenges escalate past the point of reason. I'm not really sure what this is about anymore. Most of us agree that it's odd, so why keep beating the point into the ground?

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Scott R
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Here is the Illegitimate Surrogacy thread Rabbit alluded to above.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
He was 18, almost 19, and at least one parent objected strongly. Even if both had agreed, how is it not defrauding the insurance company?

One way, now that I think about it, is if the adoption was all about the old parents relinquishing their role and a new parent assuming the role. If that's what it was ALL ABOUT then the insurance thing would not be fraud. I think that's interesting.

But if it was about getting insurance then yeah, it's questionable. Probably not legally fraud - that would be if you pretended a legal adoption happened when it hadn't - but it'd be unethical at the very least. (Leaving aside the ethics of the adoption itself.)

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ambyr
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Tangentially, I find this blog a really interesting exploration of the issues inherent in fostering/adopting teenagers. The author provides long-term (essentially, until they reach the age of emancipation) foster care to older teens. She's currently parenting her fourth long-term placement. In her experience:

quote:
Once kids hit 16 though they are pretty much unadoptable. It is not just that the potential adoptive parents aren't interested -- the kids are no longer interested. They need to seriously think about planning for adulthood. They often don't have the emotional energy to go through the adoption process.

Parenting these kids often requires a light touch. Many of them do not want (or think they do not want) an emotional connection. They are not looking for a mommy, but they might accept a mentor.

There's a lot of good stuff there, including her thoughts on what's involved in "parenting" a child who still has (a) living parent(s).
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Flying Fish
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Maybe it's useful to differentiate between the terms "judgment" and "opinion."

"Judgment" seems to have some formal and specific denotations in LDS communities, as well as in other religious communities, a supposition given weight by the fact that "judgment" is specifically addresses by Jesus's words in scripture.

"Opinion" on the other hand might be something we all form all the time, based on admittedly scant data, such as posts on a thread, outward appearances, connotations of words, etc.

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kmbboots
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The element of the situation that I find disturbing is the pretending that Sasha is much younger than he is.
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BlackBlade
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I completely missed this hullabaloo (wow firefox knows that word!) because I felt like I didn't really have any business in the mommies with new babies thread.

I can't see discussion on Tatiana's legitimacy as a mother going very well for either side. The emotional threshold for rational conversation was breached long ago.

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Xavier
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He was only a couple of weeks away from turning 19, IIRC (the original thread having been deleted). Calling him a "teenager" is a bit misleading. He was a FULL GROWN ADULT. Yes, nineteen technically ends in "teen", but it's still a misleading term.
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Jamio
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quote:
Originally posted by Amilia:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Mother's day just passed. I had at least a dozen people at church tell me I was a mother because I have a calling in the primary [Roll Eyes] .

I HATE that. I am not a mother. Trying to pretend that I am only rubs it it. Which is why I refuse to go to family wards on Mother's Day.
Do you also refuse to go to General Women's Conference, which always features a talk about women without a temporal family sharing in motherhood?
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ElJay
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quote:
The problem people have is that she asked Sasha's birth mother and father to sign a form relinquishing their rights as parents so that she could adopt him. And we know that she was frustrated when his father was reluctant to do this. And I will agree, that is disturbing.
That is a problem, but it is not the only problem. Do you refer to yourself as a mother to the children you help care for in primary, or the boy who you said could be your son for the day? Do you talk about your concern over their eating and sleeping habits to your aquaintences? Many words have degrees of meaning, and if "we all know" anything, we all know that the way Tatiana is referring to Sasha as her son is different from the way you told that boy he could be your son for the day.

When Tatiana first posted about her plans, people expressed disapproval and she deleted the threads. Every time she brings the subject up, she acts surprised that people aren't thrilled for her over her experiences as a new parent. And yet she keeps coming back, expecting people to share in her delight, and acting hurt and offended when they don't. It's not going to change. People aren't going to magically start approving of her actions. And as long as she keeps posting her looking for validation of her relationship with this young man, she's going to be disappointed.

--------

rivka, there are situations where I would consider that exploiting a loophole and situations where I would consider it insurance fraud. Raja and I have talked about getting married to help him find a job in this country, since many companies reject his application out of hand because he's not a resident. We've been together 4 years, and would be doing it with the intent to stay together. Ultimately we're not comfortable with it. But I don't think I'd feel like we were commiting fraud if we did it. I know you asked about strangers, not us, but. . . *shrug*

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The Rabbit
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I'm sorry I can't seem to stay away from the thread as I had intended.

quote:
That is a problem, but it is not the only problem.
I understand it isn't the only problem, I just think people would be able to let the rest of the problems slide by if it weren't for the big problem that underlies it all. If Tatiana or anyone else here announced that they had adopted a teenage orphan from Africa or had just had a teenage foster child move into their home, I don't think people would object to them talking about their new "son" or being a new "mommy". In this particular case context is everything and I think its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

quote:
Do you refer to yourself as a mother to the children you help care for in primary, or the boy who you said could be your son for the day? Do you talk about your concern over their eating and sleeping habits to your aquaintences? Many words have degrees of meaning, and if "we all know" anything, we all know that the way Tatiana is referring to Sasha as her son is different from the way you told that boy he could be your son for the day.
I wasn't implying it was the same, I was simply pointing out that the idea that mother was some sort of sacrosanct word that is somehow degraded if used in other ways is silly. People are disturbed by Tatiana say she is this boys mother because it heightens their sense that she is trying to usurp his real mother's place. Isn't that what you were trying to say when you asked "More than do Sasha's parent's know, my question is what does Sasha's birth mother consider her relationship with him?"

That is a legitimate question but doesn't your opinion of this whole situation hang very heavily on what you presume to be the answer to this question. If you found out that Sasha's birth mother was delighted to share the name of mother with Tatiana, would your objections be the same? If you found out that Sasha's birth parents were meth addicts who had neglected him for all his life and whose only objection to Tatiana legally adopting him was that they were hoping to weasel some money out of her, would it change your opinion? If you found out that Sasha, perhaps due to his illness, was several years less mature emotionally and physically than a typical 19 year old, would it change your opinion? I'm not saying that I think any of those are true. I'm saying that I can imagine answers to your question that would change most peoples opinion of this situation.

I don't fault people for forming opinions on the limited data. We all do that. But I do think they should keep those opinions closely guarded and maintain an open mind toward changing those opinions until they know all the facts. To do otherwise is uncharitable.

quote:
Every time she brings the subject up, she acts surprised that people aren't thrilled for her over her experiences as a new parent. And yet she keeps coming back, expecting people to share in her delight, and acting hurt and offended when they don't. It's not going to change. People aren't going to magically start approving of her actions. And as long as she keeps posting her looking for validation of her relationship with this young man, she's going to be disappointed.
On this much we agree. In this respect, Tatiana is making the same mistake that so many others are making here. It is as foolish for her to expect a different response when she posts about Sasha as it is for those who criticize her to expect a different response.

[ May 13, 2009, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Samprimary
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good lord. This drama takes the cake.

The stuff I'm filling myself in on is just blowing my mind.

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Amilia
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamio:
quote:
Originally posted by Amilia:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Mother's day just passed. I had at least a dozen people at church tell me I was a mother because I have a calling in the primary [Roll Eyes] .

I HATE that. I am not a mother. Trying to pretend that I am only rubs it it. Which is why I refuse to go to family wards on Mother's Day.
Do you also refuse to go to General Women's Conference, which always features a talk about women without a temporal family sharing in motherhood?
No, I don't boycott Women's Conference. It really does bother me that because marriage and families and motherhood are so important and emphasized in our (LDS) culture that they feel the need to throw a bone to those of us who are single and childless by pretending we are mothers. I would much prefer it if they would just say that our contributions matter as well. Which is what they mean, I know. But our contributions are different than motherhood, and trying to equate them does not lessen my mourning for the babies that never were.

But to get back to your question, hearing the "all women are mothers" spiel in a conference talk is not nearly as visceral and personal as being forced to stand and accept Mother's Day gifts in Sacrament Meeting. It's kind of like the difference between listening to a lesson on eternal marriage as a singleton and going to a Valentine's dance alone.

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Katarain
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Just to point out that the mommies with new babies thread wasn't for NEW MOMMIES, but mommies (or daddies) with NEW BABIES. Tatiana didn't belong there whether she was this guy's mother or not.
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Xavier
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quote:
If Tatiana or anyone else here announced that they had adopted a teenage orphan from Africa or had just had a teenage foster child move into their home, I don't think people would object to them talking about their new "son" or being a new "mommy". In this particular case context is everything and I think its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
If she popped into a breastfeeding thread to talk about she was a concerned "new mommy" about how her 19 year old "baby" from Africa was eating, you better believe it would get a reaction.

However, it is true that knowing the adoption was only agreed upon by the actual parents was so that Tatiana could commit insurance fraud is something that is coloring our perceptions, or at least mine.

And Eljay is right. The part that most makes Tatiana come off as a nut-job is that she is SHOCKED whenever anyone expresses their opinions on this, as if she hadn't heard it all before in a dozen threads! It's as if once she deletes a thread she actually believes it never happened.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
If Tatiana or anyone else here announced that they had adopted a teenage orphan from Africa or had just had a teenage foster child move into their home, I don't think people would object to them talking about their new "son" or being a new "mommy". In this particular case context is everything and I think its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.


Honestly, I would still think it was creepy if she talked about him in a way (and in contexts) that made it seem like he was a young child instead of an adult.
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ElJay
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The Rabbit, I actually considered if my opinion would be different if I knew Sasha's birth parents were abusive. I didn't consider if he was developmentally delayed, because we know that's not the case. He's psoted here, or she's posted stuff that was written by him about his medical issues. And they initially got to know each other over AIM. If he were several years less emotionally mature than your typical 19 year old, I would question the situation even more, because the only thing that makes it even close to okay is the fact that he made the decision for himself. If he wasn't competant to make that decision, it opens a whole nother can of worms.

For the abusive part, no, it wouldn't make a difference. She still did not raise him through his formative years. She would be an adult helping out another adult that she cared about. Not a mother.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
No, I don't boycott Women's Conference. It really does bother me that because marriage and families and motherhood are so important and emphasized in our (LDS) culture that they feel the need to throw a bone to those of us who are single and childless by pretending we are mothers. I would much prefer it if they would just say that our contributions matter as well. Which is what they mean, I know. But our contributions are different than motherhood, and trying to equate them does not lessen my mourning for the babies that never were.

But to get back to your question, hearing the "all women are mothers" spiel in a conference talk is not nearly as visceral and personal as being forced to stand and accept Mother's Day gifts in Sacrament Meeting. It's kind of like the difference between listening to a lesson on eternal marriage as a singleton and going to a Valentine's dance alone.

Yup, yup, yup. I couldn't share your sentiments more. For years I have planned to be out of town on Mother's day so I could avoid the whole affair. This is the first time in ages I've been to church on Mother's day and I went mostly because I was directing the primary singing Mother's day songs. That is the one part of Mother's day I like because I'm reminded of singing them to my own Mother and I can think about how wonderful my Mom is without being reminded that I'm not a Mom.

And mother's day is lots worse than Women's conferences because motherhood tends to be at most one topic of many at the conference. On Mother's Day, its the only thing they talk about for a full hour and it isn't even just at church.

I'd also add that calling what women without children do "motherhood" is a particularly poor way of saying our contributions matter because it not only makes you at best a 2nd class "mother", it also tends to discount any contribution you might be making that doesn't involve children and nurturing. Most of things people with children say in attempts to console women who want children but can't have them are absolutely awful. It would be much better if they said nothing at all,

Oh, along these same lines, the thing I find most objectionable in the LDS church regarding motherhood is the attempt to draw an equivalence between holding the priesthood and being a mother. They seem to forget that the priesthood is given to men based on their worthiness and all worthy men who desire it can receive the priesthood. Many worthy women will never become mothers (at least in mortality) while thousands if not millions of unworthy women become mothers every day.

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kmbboots
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Goodness! And I thought we Catholics were bad!
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scifibum
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I guess I wasn't paying attention when I used to go to church. They make the non-mothers stand up to receive a mother's day gift?

That sounds terribly awkward.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
And they initially got to know each other over AIM. If he were several years less emotionally mature than your typical 19 year old, I would question the situation even more, because the only thing that makes it even close to okay is the fact that he made the decision for himself. If he wasn't competant to make that decision, it opens a whole nother can of worms.
I'm not talking about being developmentally delayed. There is a pretty wide range of what one might call normal maturity for a 19 year old. I guess my opinion on this is strongly influenced by the fact that I have known 2 people who entered fosters homes while in high school and formed life long parent/child like bonds with their foster parents. I just don't see that there is necessarily a huge difference between someone in high school and some one who is 19. I know plenty of 16 year olds who are more mature both emotionally and physically than some 19 year olds. I have no idea where Sasha fits in this spectrum but the fact that he has been sick for some time may mean that he hasn't been able to the develop the independence one might normally expect from a 19 year old.

I don't think what Tatiana has said about him on this forum gives me any idea how they interact in real life. If she treats him like he's a toddler or even a 13 year old, it would be a real problem but I can hardly imagine that any teenager would put up with that. I simply think its premature for me to make a judgement on these issues until I've actually seen the two of them together and have an idea how they interact.

[ May 13, 2009, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Mucus
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In that case, I can see why a Mormon might find it inconsistent to exclude someone that had adopted a teenager from "motherhood" when motherhood is emphasized to such a degree even for non-Mothers.

Thanks for that explanation.

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Goodness! And I thought we Catholics were bad!

I didn't. I always thought the Catholic church got a worse reputation than it deserved on this one. When I was growing up, they spoke of marriage and children as a vocation a person was called to, but on equal footing with a number of others, including becoming a priest or a nun. And no one ever suggested to me that I had to get married or have children if I wasn't called to do that.

Now, the Catholic church does discourage the use of birth control, but it seems their influence on that one is a bit tenuous at best. I've known a few to take them seriously, but the vast majority here in the U.S. seem to ignore it.

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kmbboots
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The Rabbit, I can see why someone in that situation might be desperate to be considered a mother.

Christine, I had my tongue at least a little in my cheek there. We have gotten much better.

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scholarette
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Rabbit, I am a mother and I find those talks demeaning as well. And in a few weeks, I will even be a sahm (though I am calling myself unemployed).
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Puffy Treat
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Is saying something is equal is the exact same thing as saying it's exactly alike?
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:

Christine, I had my tongue at least a little in my cheek there. We have gotten much better.

I figured. I just get a bit defensive sometimes. Which is weird, since I'm not really Catholic anymore. [Smile]
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Mucus
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Puffy Treat: It depends on how you implement equals() or alternatively == in operator overloading. But generally, yes, things that are equal are exactly alike.
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ElJay
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quote:
I know plenty of 16 year olds who are more mature both emotionally and physically than some 19 year olds. I have no idea where Sasha fits in this spectrum but the fact that he has been sick for some time may mean that he hasn't been able to the develop the independence one might normally expect from a 19 year old.
That still goes back to the competent to make the decision against his parent's wishes part. Neither of them wanted him to do it, if I recall correctly, his father just objected more strenuously. His mother was relucantly willing to agree because it was what he wanted. Either he's an adult and can make the decision for himself and so she shouldn't be infantilizing him or she took advantage of a vulnerable teenager. I'm still not seeing a situation where my opinion of the situation would change.

I can see where teenagers who've lost their parents or been removed from their homes due to neglect or their parents being imprisoned could form that sort of family bond with their foster parents. I bet the foster parents in those cases didn't claim to be the kids real mommies the day after they moved in, though. The key term is formed. It doesn't happen overnight, or through years of IM conversations.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
Is saying something is equal is the exact same thing as saying it's exactly alike?

In math yes. In language, it generally doesn't mean exactly alike but certainly implies that they are alike in the most important ways.
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natural_mystic
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Puffy Treat: It depends on how you implement equals() or alternatively == in operator overloading. But generally, yes, things that are equal are exactly alike.

It's often understood that 'equals' is only up to isomorphism; 'exactly alike' is stronger.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Puffy Treat: It depends on how you implement equals() or alternatively == in operator overloading. But generally, yes, things that are equal are exactly alike.

Not in a lot of common usage. "All men are created equal", for instance.

But I think it's even more common to equate particular qualities of unequal things. "Motherhood is equally as important as the priesthood" is something I'm sure I've heard at church, but of course it doesn't denote the same thing as "motherhood equals priesthood".

But I'm thinking such proclamations can only ever be seen as patronizing, and making them just tends to delineate other roles/groups that weren't mentioned and are implied to be less important and so need their OWN platitudes, and so it goes.

[ May 13, 2009, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

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The Rabbit
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quote:
But I think it's even more common to equate particular qualities of unequal things. "Motherhood is equally as important as the priesthood" is something I'm sure I've heard at church, but of course it doesn't denote the same thing as "motherhood equals priesthood".

But I'm thinking such proclamations can only ever be seen as patronizing, and making them just tends to delineate other roles/groups that weren't mentioned and are implied to be less important and so need their OWN platitudes, and so it goes.

It's much worse than that scifibum because in this analogy, it is generally implied or even state out right either that "women aren't called to the priesthood because they are called to be mothers" or worse "it's fair and reasonable that only men are called to the priesthood because only women are called to be mothers". And both of those implications hurt really deeply if you are a woman but can not become a mother.
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katharina
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Just for the record, I don't agree with the characterization of motherhood = priesthood, and I don't think that's an integral part of the gospel.

Spoken as a happy Mormon woman who is not a mother and has no prospect of being such.

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The Rabbit
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I agree that its not part of the gospel, but if you haven't heard said and said over the pulpit, you haven't been going to church.

And I am also a happy Mormon woman who is not a mother and has no prospect of being such. I've gotten to the point where I'm comfortable with that, but I haven't always been there. There have been plenty of days when words spoken over the pulpit by general authorities about Motherhood have made me cry uncontrollably.

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katharina
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I respect that the same words have not had the same effect on both of us, despite some superficial similarities in our circumstances.

And actually, I don't go to church on Mother's Day. After sobbing every year for about six years in a row, the Lord and I worked out a deal where I don't have to go on that day. Mine wasn't because I'm not a Mom, but because of how badly I miss my own and it's like attending her funeral all over again every time. Still, that may be why I don't hear that much over the pulpit - it's a seasonal thing, and I skip the Sunday of that season.

ETA: Some women really love that Sunday. Some women are tired, lonely talking mostly to their kid, and love the day where they are reassured about the great thing they are doing. I would never want to take that away from them - I do think being a Mom is a great, great thing. Mother's Day just has nothing to do with me - I don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo either. I think the Lord is okay with people who find that day hard just skipping it.

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advice for robots
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I think motherhood is honored fairly clumsily in the church, from all the grumbling I hear. There are a lot of somewhat patronizing comparisons with the Priesthood. While a lot of good counsel is given, IMO, we all brace for what seems to be the mandatory lauding of mothers from the pulpit, gritting our teeth and knowing we're all just doing it for the sake of the holiday. The women know it's forced, the men know it's forced. Still, I don't think it diminishes the importance of motherhood, or the importance of being able to celebrate our own mothers. The thing is, motherhood is held in incredibly high, genuine esteem, and I think that should be expressed. We're just currently doing it from two different trenches. There is a whole spectrum of ways to be offended.

They didn't give out the candy bars to non-mothers in my ward. Still, I'd be fine with letting go of that particular awkward tradition and letting mothers be recognized individually in their own families, in whatever ways are most comfortable for the families.

Mother's Day is also made for all of us children as a chance to honor our mothers and remember their fundamental importance in our lives--not just for the mothers themselves. I'll never be a mother, either, but I enjoy Mother's Day for that. Like any holiday, you use it how you will.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Still, that may be why I don't hear that much over the pulpit - it's a seasonal thing, and I skip the Sunday of that season.
Certainly Mother's Day is a peak time for this kind of thing, but it is hardly something that is only taught seasonally. Until a few years back, one Relief Society lesson every month was on motherhood. The topic comes up in virtually every women's conference and often enough in General conference. The very worst experience I had was during a talk by Elder Nelson in a stake conference.
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