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I think that's actually the point Mucus was making, rivka: that it's not really up to individual interpretation.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think that's actually the point Mucus was making, rivka: that it's not really up to individual interpretation.
No it really is. When I sit down for a temple interview and they ask me if I keep the Word of Wisdom, they do not give me a line by line analysis, they just ask if I am following it. In Sunday school lessons (I've seen on the matter,) they do not try to specifically identify the do's and don'ts. Instead the spirit of the principle is discussed. Can a 350 pound man look at a woman smoking a cigarette and say, "You're going to hell?"
As to Mucus' question, yes I can have iced teas or simple chilled teas depending on their content. I personally think green teas have elements to them that are healthy but also unhealthy, caffeine not being the only undesired part.
I love Dr. Pepper, but even I have to concede that I drink it excessively, perhaps because I am addicted to it. It then falls to me to decide if I am really taking care of my body as well as I ought to.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think that's actually the point Mucus was making, rivka: that it's not really up to individual interpretation.
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Latter-day Saint leaders have said pretty unequivocally that coffee and tea are against the Word of Wisdom. I assume this is regardless of the temperature at which they are served.
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(Actually, I wasn't trying to make a point. I just read Noemon and Samprimary's interpretations and assumed they were correct (due to BlBl's seeming agreement with them), whereas in the past I was under the impression that as in Jon Boy's current interpretation that tea was right out. Thus I was happy that there is at least some way to enjoy it.
I'm still Chinese enough to appreciate tea and want to share it, hence the "good.")
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Mucus: All that was considered tea in 1800's America would also be called tea to the Chinese, not all that is called tea by the Chinese is also the tea Joseph Smith spoke of, at least to me and the church organization as instructed by Utah in Taiwan is concerned.
If I could have 冬瓜茶 (winter melon tea) and 麥茶 (wheat tea) in ready supply at all times in my home I would.
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Can you drink any of red tea (hong cha 紅茶), green tea (such as long jing cha, l龙井茶), or pu-erh tea (bolay cha 普洱茶) cold?
Or in other words, are there actually any teas that you cannot drink hot that you can drink cold (or in ice form) or is the temperature simply irrelevant?
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Mucus: To me, as I understand it, because coffee and tea were virtually the only drinks served hot at that time, the revelation discontinuing their use refers to them as "hot" drinks, whereas alcoholic drinks are referred to as "strong" drinks, rather than naming them specifically.
Originally the revelation was setup as a sort of "advice for those who'll take it," after Joseph Smith's death, Brigham Young (whether through revelation or some other process) deemed it mandatory for full fellowship in the church.
Missionaries in Taiwan, since we had to deal with this question of teas constantly, were instructed to tell the members and investigators that tea made from tea leaves is expressly forbidden, whereas flower, fruit, and grain teas are still OK. In essence the instruction was 有茶葉就不行了 (If it's got tea leaves, it's no good.)
So green and red teas regardless of temperature are prohibited. Coffee is a bit more tricky IMHO, as as far as I am aware, it's the large amounts of caffeine that make it unhealthy.
In anycase, the phrase "hot drinks" to me does not indicate that drinks served hot are bad, rather that coffee and tea are not necessarily good for you, as are many things, and ought to be scrutinized in one's diet.
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BlBl: So if I understand correctly, the temperature thing is only used as short-hand since "hot drinks" was more convenient than "drinks that we normally see as being served hot during this time period such as tea or coffee, regardless of whether they're actually hot when you ingest it"
In other words, there are no current drinks that you can drink cold that you would normally be barred from drinking hot. And it would seem that "new" hot drinks such as ovaltine or hot chocolate which were not commonly present during that time period are in somewhat of an ill-defined state.
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Does red tea have more than one meaning? Several Mormons have specifically told me that rooibos is permitted.
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English "Chinese" ---------------------- Black Tea (Hong Cha, literally red tea ) Oolong Tea (Wulong Cha) Green Tea (Lu Cha, literally green tea) White Tea (Bai Cha, literally white tea) Yellow Tea (Huang Cha, literally yellow tea) Puerh (Hei Cha, literally black tea) Other (Such as herbal tea)
So actual red tea is what white people would call black tea while rooibos is really just an herbal tea.
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What about things like orange pekoe? (I'm asking where that falls on your chart, not the Mormon stance, which I'm clear on.)
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Mucus: Absolutely correct, as far as I am concerned. As you can imagine, tea culture was one of the more difficult road blocks for Chinese converts. I once inadvertently had some 紅茶 with some lemon juice, and it was absolutely fantastic. I was extremely disappointed when it was explained to me that there was tea from leaves in it.
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rivka: If Wikipedia is to be believed, that would be a tea that would be classified as an English black tea or a Chinese red tea.
quote:... The term Orange Pekoe is used in the tea industry to describe a basic medium grade black tea consisting of many single whole tea leaves of a specific size; however, it is popularly used in some regions (such as North America) to describe any generic black tea, and is often treated as a description for the consumer as though it were a specific variety of black tea.
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: rivka: If Wikipedia is to be believed, that would be a tea that would be classified as an English black tea or a Chinese red tea.
quote:... The term Orange Pekoe is used in the tea industry to describe a basic medium grade black tea consisting of many single whole tea leaves of a specific size; however, it is popularly used in some regions (such as North America) to describe any generic black tea, and is often treated as a description for the consumer as though it were a specific variety of black tea.
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rivka: It would seem from my reading that Orange pekoe IS "black" tea. But rather than being a type of tea in the normal sense of being grown in a specific area and prepared in a specific way, its just a descriptor for all types of "black" tea leaves of a specific size. If that article is to be believed, its completely outside of Chinese/Japanese classifications as in here http://www.o-cha.net/english/cup/pdf/4.pdfPosts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Well ... it rather depends on what specifically was given to you as black tea. Maybe I'm not being clear.
Let's compare tea to say, soft drinks. Saying you have black tea might be like saying you have a cola. Saying you have orange pekoe might be like saying you have a diet cola. They both narrow down the field but in different ways and one is contained within the other. (Of course, IANAE)
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You guys have wondered way way off topic. What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.
I guess I should add that there is no real consensus among Mormons about whether using alcohol in cooking or coffee as a flavoring in desserts and candies violates the Word of Wisdom. I am unaware of any official position on the issues and opinions are all over the map.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.
I don't know how we got here, but thats just wrong.
Not only on the narrow issue of green tea is there green tea ice cream in normal form or in bar form. In fact, in China McDonald's sells a green tea+green bean sundae.
More generally, bubble tea of various forms, some containing real tea and some not is very very big business.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I guess I should add that there is no real consensus among Mormons about whether using alcohol in cooking or coffee as a flavoring in desserts and candies violates the Word of Wisdom. I am unaware of any official position on the issues and opinions are all over the map.
In that case I guess I'd go ahead and cook myself an olive in a nice glass of vodka, and maybe later I'd flavor a cube of sugar by dumping it in a cup of coffee. Problem solved.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.
I don't know how we got here, but thats just wrong.
Not only on the narrow issue of green tea is there green tea ice cream in normal form or in bar form. In fact, in China McDonald's sells a green tea+green bean sundae.
More generally, bubble tea of various forms, some containing real tea and some not is very very big business.
I don't think Mcdonalds was offering that sundae while I was in Taiwan, but maybe they were, I'm not surprised at all that they offer it. Bubble tea looks positively disgusting and zhu zhu beads are just gross.
I don't know why at least the Taiwanese think red and green bean tastes good with everything, I've said it before, it's like eating soil straight up.
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I know lots of Mormons who love tiramisu. They tend to get a sort of blank look on their face when I tell them it has coffee in it. I think they are trying to erase their short term memory. (For some of these Mormons I think they haven't decided that coffee in a dessert is OK, rather they've decided not to think about it too much. Which I'm totally fine with. It's hard enough for the poor folks.)
Anyway I've never known a Mormon to be so hardcore as to refuse to use flavoring extracts containing ethanol in their cooking.
I do wonder why those extracts are an exception to the rule for alcohol content (meaning liquor law- and retail sale-wise, no longer talking about LDS). I'm not sure if the concentrated oils qualify to "denature" the alcohol and whether they'd be harmful (barring allergies).
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I don't think Mcdonalds was offering that sundae while I was in Taiwan, but maybe they were, I'm not surprised at all that they offer it.
I think it might be a bit of a recent innovation. From what I've read, McDonald's, KFC, and the like were finding that after the novelty of their initial entry (as a taste of the Western world) into these markets started to wear off, that they have to adapt in order to compete by offering more local foods and flavours.
quote:Bubble tea looks positively disgusting and zhu zhu beads are just gross.
Don't have to get the beads, they have various jellies now. Best is lychee, IMHO. Its like a whole genre of foods now and saying that you don't like bubble tea is almost like saying you don't like "cake." Technically possible, but pretty unlikely ... and a touch insane
quote: I don't know why at least the Taiwanese think red and green bean tastes good with everything, I've said it before, it's like eating soil straight up.
Green bean would be not so good. Its normally green *tea* and red bean. And it does taste good with many things. Like, yo
I think part of the problem is that most Western desserts are sickly sweet. This is in fact, not required.
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scifibum: I know you used to be a Mormon, and subsequently it's easier for you to pity us who still are, but I wouldn't say living the Word of Wisdom has made my life very difficult or that somebody ought to see me and think, "poor guy." It's weird but I actually think about rivka almost everytime I eat pork, and think, "I wonder if she knows what she's missing." But then I think, "Probably not, but there is more than enough good food out there that we both can enjoy."
I don't spend alot of time worrying if my food is OK to eat. Certainly not as much as rivka, but I doubt either of us are having a particular hard time living our normal lives.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: It would take a pretty severe alcohol addiction to find vanilla extract remotely drinkable.
My sister used to pour vanilla extract into hot cocoa- she was only like ten. I doubt she knew there was even booze in it.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: scifibum: I know you used to be a Mormon, and subsequently it's easier for you to pity us who still are, but I wouldn't say living the Word of Wisdom has made my life very difficult or that somebody ought to see me and think, "poor guy." It's weird but I actually think about rivka almost everytime I eat pork, and think, "I wonder if she knows what she's missing." But then I think, "Probably not, but there is more than enough good food out there that we both can enjoy."
I don't spend alot of time worrying if my food is OK to eat. Certainly not as much as rivka, but I doubt either of us are having a particular hard time living our normal lives.
Good point. I can drink a beer or have a cup of coffee and be glad that I can enjoy it, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a poorer life for the lack of those particular indulgences.
What I do think is true, however, is that it's not my place or anyone's to nitpick at their personal interpretation of the legitimately gray areas.
So I retract the pity, but stand by the "hey, let them handle tiramisu however they want" stance. Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... What does tea have to do with pudding or even dessert? I guess I've seen green tea flavored sorbet, but its hard to think of that as a real dessert.
I don't know how we got here, but thats just wrong.
Not only on the narrow issue of green tea is there green tea ice cream in normal form or in bar form. In fact, in China McDonald's sells a green tea+green bean sundae.
More generally, bubble tea of various forms, some containing real tea and some not is very very big business.
Like I said before, these just aren't real desserts. I'm sorry but they just aren't. They are sort of an asianified perversion of desserts. It's like some one finally noticed that most asian cuisines are really lacking in the dessert arena so they are trying to take good western desserts and add an asian twist and failing pitifully.
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The Rabbit: I'm pretty sure we were eating desserts when you guys were still banging together rocks and bearskins. I'd say that its actually the West which has perverted desserts Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: scifibum: I know you used to be a Mormon, and subsequently it's easier for you to pity us who still are, but I wouldn't say living the Word of Wisdom has made my life very difficult or that somebody ought to see me and think, "poor guy." It's weird but I actually think about rivka almost everytime I eat pork, and think, "I wonder if she knows what she's missing." But then I think, "Probably not, but there is more than enough good food out there that we both can enjoy."
I don't spend alot of time worrying if my food is OK to eat. Certainly not as much as rivka, but I doubt either of us are having a particular hard time living our normal lives.
Good point. I can drink a beer or have a cup of coffee and be glad that I can enjoy it, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a poorer life for the lack of those particular indulgences.
What I do think is true, however, is that it's not my place or anyone's to nitpick at their personal interpretation of the legitimately gray areas.
So I retract the pity, but stand by the "hey, let them handle tiramisu however they want" stance.
Thanks. I completely agree with the tiramisu.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: The Rabbit: I'm pretty sure we were eating desserts when you guys were still banging together rocks and bearskins. I'd say that its actually the West which has perverted desserts
Psh, no way. You guys simply refuse to move beyond munching on leafs.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Psh, no way. You guys simply refuse to move beyond munching on leafs.
Ok, that is one dessert "innovation" the West has on us. While we still make desserts mostly from plants, you guys have developed the meat cake.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: What makes something a "real dessert", Rabbit?
Taste!!!
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: The Rabbit: I'm pretty sure we were eating desserts when you guys were still banging together rocks and bearskins. I'd say that its actually the West which has perverted desserts
Oh, then pray tell me why I can't think of one really good Chinese or Japanese dessert? Why is it that none of the dessert you find on the menu at a chinese restaurant or Japanese restaurant are actually Chinese or Japanese? Explain why it is that French and Viennese pastry shops are opening on ever street corner in Japan but red bean cakes and sticky rice balls just haven"t really caught on in the west?
India and Thailand do have some tasty sweets, but I"ve always figured that was due to the British influence.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: You have a bigoted palate, Rabbit.
Only when it comes to dessert. I find it odd that China and Japan have developed so many truly wonderful foods and yet not one single excellent dessert. And don't think I haven't looked.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Oh, then pray tell me why I can't think of one really good Chinese or Japanese dessert? Why is it that none of the dessert you find on the menu at a chinese restaurant or Japanese restaurant are actually Chinese or Japanese?
Thats basically an argument from ignorance. In fact, if you're at a Chinese restaurant where none of the desserts are actually Chinese then thats probably a sign you're at a restaurant for Westerners. In which case, you may as well ask why you can't think of a non-greasy or non-fried Chinese food.
In fact, in a proper Chinese restaurant the default dessert provided at the end of a dinner is usually red bean based and it should have any number of other desserts based upon red bean, green tea (as BlBl noted), tofu, taro, or lotus. And increasingly, bubble tea at the establishments more aimed at youth.
Heck, we have a very popular holiday that is effectively devoted to cake.
quote: Explain why it is that French and Viennese pastry shops are opening on ever street corner in Japan but red bean cakes and sticky rice balls just haven"t really caught on in the west?
You're missing a critical difference in culture. Westerners, particularly North Americans, are notably provincial eating only from a small variety of foods. Asians, particularly the Cantonese, are cosmopolitan and will eat pretty much anything once (and dine out often).
There is a statistic in today's news that show that Chinese consumers in Canada spend roughly 25% more on groceries despite shopping in Asian supermarkets which are usually cheaper per item. There is a similar result for dining out as well.
We're simply that much more into eating good food and a big variety of it.
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