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Author Topic: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality - What if Harry was smarter than Ender?
Raymond Arnold
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I actually do like the side characters. but I thought the chapter was going to go in a rather different direction: they'd go to the secret corridor and see the Mirror of Erised, which would twist the "Self Actualization" metaphor yet again, and provide some insight that would elevate the characters from "cute side characters I kinda like" to "actual serious characters with goals that will turn out to be significant."
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Hobbes
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quote:
But I'm having trouble keeping the different SPHEW girls and their schemes and motivations apart. Apart from their names they come across as one undifferentiated mass to me. Presumably they are all intended as separate characters with their own plots and schemes, probably at cross-purposes to one another, in (perhaps) a setup for another Thirty Xanatos Pileup. But my eyes glaze over when I try to tell which witch is doing what, and to whom.
Yes.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Raymond Arnold
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Some of them (Hannah, Susan) are new characters we're only just being given any information on. But I had a pretty good feel for Padma, Pavarti(sp?), Daphne, and Tracey. Not all of them are INTERESTING (I agree with Rakeesh's assessment) but I felt like I understood what was meant to be understood.
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Hobbes
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I don't have a good handle on any of them. Part of the reason is that these installments are coming far enough apart from each other that I forget things in between. It's normally not until the second paragraph of a new update that I really, fully remember what happened last time. I think it's a problem all stories can suffer from, but episodic ones in particular. Characters really need to be established before they can all have their own plot lines, otherwise you're confused about what's going on (as the reader) and probably don't care that much. There's also a limit to the total number of people I can keep track of in a story no matter how much time is spent setting them up. I'm not saying he's hit it here but he seems to be going in that direction. The story keeps slowing down and getting broader, rather than tightening up towards an ending. Which is fine I guess but it moves farther and farther away from it's core of Harry as a rationalist which is the main reason I signed on.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Raymond Arnold
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I suppose it's worth mentioning that I've read any given chapter at least 7 times. I think if I read them each once, and had them spaced out as far as they are (over a month now between updates) I'd probably have forgotten a lot. I don't think I'd have had the problem if I read it all at once though.

I also strongly feel (I have no idea if Eliezer intends this) that chapter 63 is the end of book one. It had numerous plotlines going on, but it tied them all up, with a slight cliffhanger on each one. And at that time, the story was incredibly focused. So focused, in fact, that while Harry was getting a lot of spotlight, humor and childish glee werew not getting any spotlight at all. And those things are just as integral to the story as "Harry" the person is.

Chapter 65 is the beginning of a new book. It started by establishing Harry's current grim situation and set in motion (what I assume) will be the major arc of Book 2: Harry is imprisoned (unwittingly) by Dumbledore, he doesn't trust Quirrel, and he's trying to figure out how to keep his broader goals in motion within making another big mistake.

Harry is so grim, though, that the only realistic way to reintroduce some silliness to the story is make some of the other characters more prominent. I think having Harry take a back seat for two or three chapters is fine. I don't think we're supposed to be interpreting this as eight new plot threads. Padma and Daphne are minor threads that have been going all along, and I don't think the others are meant to be all that important.

[ April 06, 2011, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
But I'm having trouble keeping the different SPHEW girls and their schemes and motivations apart.
May be simpler if you think them grouped by house
Slytherin:
Tracey Davis Called ambitionless by Quirrel, is now aggressively gathering lots and lots ambitions to herself. Plans to marry Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy both.
Daphne Greengrass Crushing on Neville, challenged him to lightsaber duel, but a bit more thoughtful concerning risks/costs/benefits of this endeavour. Clever enough to figure out a wrong explanation for Millicent's too fast knowledge of gossip.

Hufflepuff:
Hannah Abbot The shiest girl, also crushing on Neville, wants to be heroic to impress him.
Susan Bones The last surviving child of the Bones family, not much I remember about her character. But because she voted 'no', she's probably more prudent.

Ravenclaw:
Hermione Granger
Padma Patil fearful of 'falling into harmony' with her sister, got pranked by Harry who pretended to be a ghost, ambitious and cunning enough to be in Slytherin, but didn't want to go there because of its horrid reputation.

Gryffindor:
Parvati Patil: Padma's twin sister, the slightly more prudent Gryffindor, who wants to seek out those more safe dangers the Headmaster explicitly told them about (like the third floor corridor)
Lavender Brown: The slightly less prudent Gryffindor, who wants them to fight 24 older bullies simultaneously, because of Multiplication.

---

On my part, I enjoyed the chapter tremendously -- laughed out loud at their idea of tying up Harry Potter in order to lure Adventures to themselves.

[ April 07, 2011, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Wingracer
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Finished reading it all and wow, this has to be the greatest fanfic ever. Absolutely brilliant. When do we usually get new chapters?
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Raymond Arnold
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Unfortunately, right now he's writing the second draft of his nonfiction book, and as result hasn't been updating that often. He used to update every week or so, but we've been lucky to get one a month ever since chapter 63. (for the record, when recommending the story, I send people my PDF of chapter's 1 - 63.)

Depending on what you liked about it, you may also want to read the Sequences at Lesswrong.com.

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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:

Depending on what you liked about it, you may also want to read the Sequences at Lesswrong.com.

I have been, but I can't wait to see what Harry does next. [Big Grin]
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Lisa
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The PDF is now chapters 1-71. I don't know if Eli is going to be adding more.
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Raymond Arnold
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Chapter 72 is up. Good stuff.
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Raymond Arnold
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(Mild spoiler if you haven't read it yet)

quote:
Susan approached the table as soon as the older girl was alone, glancing around the Hufflepuff common room to make sure nobody was watching (the way Auntie had taught her to do it, so that it wouldn't be obvious that she was looking).

"Hey, Susie," said the seventh-year Hufflepuff. "Do you already need more -"

"Can I please talk to you privately for a bit?" Susan said.

Is this Tonks? I can't remember what house she is. She was the one who made the badges, which Susan might have been asking for more of except she wasn't.
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Ron Lambert
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Nymphadora Tonks was sorted into Hufflepuff house. Link: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Nymphadora_Tonks
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Ron Lambert
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All the depiction of Hermione's adventures and misadventures is entertaining. But it is getting a bit silly, and perhaps tedious. What is really hard to swallow is that she and Harry are still only ten years old. I am waiting for Less Wrong to get on with the plot in a little more substantive way.
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Raymond Arnold
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I thought this chapter pretty deliberately tied all the SPHEW stuff back into the main plot: it incited Draco to speak up for a Muggleborn in front of everyone, which sets a lot of other things in motion.
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Rakeesh
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That was my read on it too, particularly with the way the chapter ended-hinting at a schism between Malfoys, or the possibility.
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Ron Lambert
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Draco Malfoy is turning into somebody else. I suppose that is fair, since Harry is somebody else. The only person who is not changing her basic character too much is Hermione. Except for the naive nonsense about her wanting to be a heroine in her own right, and jumping to the conclusion that that means fighting bullies. Which was really just a reaction to Dumbledore putting his foot in his mouth.
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Seatarsprayan
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The fic has finally started updating again. I felt the story really dragged around the whole self-actualization arc. Chapter 74 on the other hand was pretty entertaining... but Quirrel's final comments sure give ME a sense of doom...

I hope that the SPHEW witches do something to protect Millicent though, or Harry does. Reprisals against her were promised.

Man, 44 students attacking 8 first-year students, they are all stripped naked (and therefore unmasked)... what will happen to them? I assume little or nothing. Dumbledore absolutely COULD prevent bullying of that magnitude in his hallways if he so wished, we are now shown that he doesn't wish to, for various reasons.

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Rakeesh
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Well, according to Dumbledore he does wish to, but fears unintended consequences. I think there's some weight to that, as for example people now think that Harry is minded of incredibly dark rituals, capable of facing 2 score of advanced enemies alone and winning, and that's just the stuff off the top of my head. There absolutely will be unintended consequences. Harry has obviously decided that this is a fight he does want to have, unlike his initial encounter with Snape when he lost his temper. He won that fight too, but in unexpected and costlier-than-necessary ways.

It also seems all but confirmed what I'd suspected before, that Snape was the one backing, Slytherin style, Hermione specifically and her group in general.

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Raymond Arnold
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I got a strong sense that Dumbledore IS intended to be speaking sense in this chapter, it's just that we're seeing it from Harry's POV.

For a long time I was among the defenders of this story arc (a lot of people don't like it) but at this point even I am ready for something new. I'm glad we can expect regular updates and the arc is closing out.

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Rakeesh
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I think part of the beef is that this story arc came at a time when the update pace also slowed. It felt like it was dragging along not just because it wasn't as exciting or brisk, but because it really was dragging along.

The funny thing is, I think Dumbledore is speaking sense, at least in the manner of speaking accurately about what will happen. I'm very interested to see what the consequences will be.

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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
I think part of the beef is that this story arc came at a time when the update pace also slowed.
I definitely think that was the case for the first large chunk of it. I was fine with the less intense, somewhat silly storyline because Methods of Rationality desperately needed some less intense silliness after Azkaban. By now I think we're ready to get back to the main story.

I'm hoping that the eventual reveal of (Snapes?) motives will tie things together.

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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Well, according to Dumbledore he does wish to, but fears unintended consequences. I think there's some weight to that, as for example people now think that Harry is minded of incredibly dark rituals, capable of facing 2 score of advanced enemies alone and winning, and that's just the stuff off the top of my head. There absolutely will be unintended consequences. Harry has obviously decided that this is a fight he does want to have, unlike his initial encounter with Snape when he lost his temper. He won that fight too, but in unexpected and costlier-than-necessary ways.

According to earlier chapters, Lucius seems to believe Potter possessed by Voldemort.

It will be interesting to see what the ramifications are once word of this gets back to him.

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Rakeesh
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He does? I don't remember that, but it's a long story of course.

The sharply amped-up Quirrelmort angle was also quite interesting. I wonder why it's happening now? Is it because the year draws towards its end, and the curse is growing more powerful? Was this weird possession thing always a timed affair? Is he simply reacting to Harry's increased suspicions? Something completely unrelated?

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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
He does? I don't remember that, but it's a long story of course.

Well, at least I think that's what the discussion between Lucius and Harry at the train station meant. And at least some other people seem to have come to that conclusion. I don't think it's been stated explicitly anywhere, though.
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Raymond Arnold
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I think it was pretty clear. Lucius is going to be hella confused though.
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Rakeesh
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Wow, I didn't draw that conclusion at all. I thought Lucius was talking to him as a dangerous up-and-comer working-with-Dumbledore. I'm not sure Lucius would directly threaten, even conditionally, someone he felt had Voldemort inside him. I just don't think he'd think that would be effective.
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Seatarsprayan
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Dumbledore is right that *Harry's* actions will likely produce unintended consequences.

But that was only possible because Dumbledore already chose to NOT craft policies at his school to put a stop to bullying. He must not think it is possible then to have *sensible* policies that prevent bullying. That is what I disagree with.

He seems to think that he can't stop the bullying without making things worse, and so the only recourse is to leave them to it.

I find it hard to believe that nothing can be done to prevent 1st year students from being bullied by 7th years. He's just hidebound by tradition where wizards and witches basically have to raise themselves with no parents or real authority... and look what a great job that has done on shaping the community.

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Rakeesh
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Oh, I agree-Dumbledore could've prevented this, or at least it appears that way from what we know about the HPMoR world. This is a world where one last-year student can overpower almost any number of first-year students on their own-it seems likely that the faculty are likewise far, far more advanced than even the upper-level students. Also given the hinted-at powers of Hogwarts itself, it probably wouldn't even be difficult.

As for why he views things that way, I think much of it is that he buys into the (not uncommon) idea of, "The world is bad, good guys aren't always going to win, and heroes are going to have to fight sometimes and sometimes lose." To him that has turned into 'shouldn't try to win' in all cases. Harry's more rational (and let's be honest, idealistic) outlook is to examine everything on a case-by-case basis and weigh things on their own merits, not having any kind of story-influenced outlook on the universe in general.

It remains to be seen which side the story will show was right.

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Rakeesh
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So I was wondering what y'all fellow readers' theories were about Quirrel. What's his deal, exactly?

My personal theory is that once upon a time, Quirrel was out adventuring and researching and being pragmatically dubiously evil when, either by intent or by accident, he happened upon a piece of Voldemort. However, being so very different from canon-Quirrel, he was able to handle the possession so much better. He is of course much smarter and stronger-willed than canon-Quirrel, and certainly smarter than even this world's Voldemort as we know him.

I'm not sure if he could be called stronger-willed than MoR-Voldemort, but in any event he could handle a chunk of Voldemort and be largely functional and himself-but over time, Voldemort being the big dag-nasty evil bad, has gradually been chipping away and all the clever planning and efficiency aren't going to be a protection indefinitely-and that's what's happening now. Possibly the direct magical contact with Harry has helped (hurt) this process.

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Raymond Arnold
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That's been my theory. I'm very interested in whether the final villain will have Quirrel's or Voldemort's motivations, or somehow both.
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Shigosei
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Maybe Quirrell found Tom Riddle's diary.
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ricree101
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I tend to go with the theory that the Quirrel we see is Voldemort, though perhaps changed somewhat by the possession. Under this theory, the more canonical insane evil overlord was a deliberate image presented by the more savvy MoR Voldemort.

This image fits if you view the two martial arts dojo stories not as quirell and voldemort going for training, but rather Voldemort going twice for different purposes. The first time, he goes in disguise and gets the training he wanted. The second, he goes to build up his image, remove a valuable training resource for anyone that might follow after him, and perhaps get revenge for slights suffered. And notice that the one survivor just happened to be a friend of "Quirrel".

Plus, the raw level of strength he shows, as well as the strong hints that he's created horcruxes. If he wasn't actually Voldemort, he's certainly someone rather similar to him.

It seems to me that he came in disguise to Hogwarts to further some plot. Since teaching defense was, I think, a canonical desire of Riddle, he decided to go with it in addition to whatever his real goals were. While investigating Potter,he came to see Harry somewhat of a kindred spirit. So he wound up taking a mentoring interest in the boy that was similar to himself at that age.

In the process, he seems to have been changed at least somewhat, though how much and how it will interact with his real aims are still open questions.

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Rakeesh
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That is certainly the kind of thing someone as smart as Quirrel might do-manufacture stories of his alter ego's short temper and stupidity. Those would be very helpful to, well, someone as smart as him.

I wonder, though. I guess I just don't have enough information about Voldemort to make up my mind. One thing strikes me, though: the Dark Mark. As Draco realized, it is a deeply stupid thing to do. I'm trying to think of a reason someone as smart as Quirrel might've done that, potentially cripple his Death Eaters if someone else smart happened to come onto the scene to oppose him. I can imagine lots of possible reasons, but none that have any backing within the story.

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Raymond Arnold
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I think the dark mark was actually invisible most of the time. I'm not sure if Harry, or Draco (or more importantly, Eliezer) know that.
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Rakeesh
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That would make it a bit less stupid, I think-it seems unlikely that folks like Moody and Dumbledore wouldn't learn (via Snape?) how to trigger its appearance, even if doing so required some Dark.

If it was something only triggered by Voldemort, though-much less stupid or not at all stupid.

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Raymond Arnold
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Doesn't Snape's suddenly re-appear in the fourth book after Voldemort reappears, and isn't that a big deal? (Can't remember that well)
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The Rabbit
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I was under the impression that the Dark Mark was only visable when Voldemort was summoning his minions.
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Rakeesh
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Draco seemed to think, back when he was horrified at Voldemort's stupidity at branding a visibly mark on his goons' arms, that it was visible all the time or at least able to be made visible. But he wasn't really in a position to know many details, unless Lucius told him specifics. I don't think it's really clear yet one way or another, and even if we all remembered precisely what the deal was in canon, this could be different.

I also dug the whole 'no one to call on' angle. Smacked a lot of Ender's Game, which couldn't have been unintentional. Fits in quite a bit with my own thoughts on what a hero is-that it requires some degree of ruthlessness. Harry seems to express that ruthlessness in the style of 'going to get the best outcome possible, regardless of any line-crossing'. Hermione seems to express it a bit more like 'going to endure what I have to and cross as few lines as I can and get the best possible outcome'.

[ September 02, 2011, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]

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Rakeesh
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Heh, in this story I have really no idea whatsoever whether the last bit in the latest chapter is true, partially true, or a 100% scam.
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Aris Katsaris
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Not true. :-) Check the author's profile page, Rakeesh.
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Rakeesh
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(I don't actually think it's accurate.)

But I note, rather like V in the beginning of V for Vendetta remarking upon the paradox in asking a masked man who he is, that believing someone who says, "It's not true," who then goes on to point out the dangers of believing everything you read is...well, funny;)

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Aris Katsaris
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In one of his edits, the author also removed the reference to the "Secret City of Australia" (or something like that) which was among the choices of places that Hat-And-Cloak had been urging Hermione to flee to.

In fact it seems the whole paragraph of Hat-and-Cloak urging Hermione to flee from Hogwarts has disappeared.

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ricree101
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I wonder if Potter never brought up the idea of an anti-obliviation measure with Hermione, or if she neglected to do it in the shock of the moment.

Or if hat and cloak had a way of suppressing that memory along with the memories of their previous conversation.

Either way, this would have been a great situation to have it in place.

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dabbler
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Poor Snape.

PS I am now obsessed with a Hermione/Snape fanfic here.

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dabbler
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If I had donated to the charity partly due to MoR I'd be a little annoyed that he only provided two or three updates at quicker speed before giving up.
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Seatarsprayan
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I don't think the characterization of Snape is so good.

This Snape seems to think that Lily never forgave him for uttering an epithet, even though she explained in detail that it wasn't the word, it was the philosophy behind it that he actually did agree with, the company he kept, etc.

This Snape offers very little information to Harry Potter, who renders a superficial judgment, which Snape is actually taking seriously... Lily has been knocked off her pedestal now, and it seems to have severed his loyalty to Dumbledore.

He is playing his own game now, he will not be loyal to Voldy if he returns, for he realizes he was used, and he will not be loyal to Dumbledore for he was not told the "truth" about his infatuation and how pathetic it was.

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Raymond Arnold
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I think your making assumptions that are not actually verified yet.
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Seatarsprayan
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Well, sure.
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ricree101
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New chapter. Also, new website.


Edited to fix tld on link.

[ March 12, 2012, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: ricree101 ]

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