It struck me, after reviewing the ultimate version of the Star Wars saga--Star Wars Lego for the Wii--why we are all safe from the ravages of the evil Empire, and other Jedi influences.
The evil empire's armed forces and political machine, and a good percentage of the most powerful Jedi were all human. Luke, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace, etc, etc,.
But in that galaxy far, far away, human woman apparently all come from one place--Alderan.
Don't argue with me about what you read in books. While some say that some books count, I'm just going by the movies, and an even more limited interpretation, what I remember from the movies. And what I remember is that the women were missing.
I mean it looks very modern for the Rebel Alliance to have a woman fighting on their side, leading the troops, etc. But she is the only woman to be seen. The entire Empirical Army, every Rebel, not to mention the clones, are all men. In all 6 movies, every person who is human is either male, from Alderan, or is a refuge/slave on the distant planet of Tattoine.
Alderan apparently has a special place for the woman, because all of them we meet are apparently Princesses. They take turns being queen.
There is a theory that the Sith, lead by Palpatine--from Alderan--was Anakin's father. His mother was a slave--I imagine stolen from Alderan. Her sister followed her. This explains the only two women in Star Wars not specifically part of the Alderan government.
All women in Star Wars can be found on Alderan.
Now, Darth Vader grows up, and General I.Forget-the-dummies-name, decide to test their big freaking death ray (compensating for something General?) by doing what?--Blowing up the planet with all the women.
Now, there is a part of me that says, hey--women gone--think of all the advantages. Then I realize that the complete lack of shoe stores selling anything not black, brown, or a sports shoe, the disappearance of the cosmetic industries animal testing, and the nagging of certain females in my life who's names I won't mention for fear of violent reprisals, may all be something we dream of--its a bit of overkill to BLOW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN.
As it blows up, Obi-Wan-Kenobi says, "Its like a million voices calling out in anguish." A million? By the size of the army the guild sent to conquer Alderan in the first movie I don't think there were a million people living on the planet. Who then were these millions in anguish? I'm guessing all the human men in the galaxy, or at least those on the Death Star who just realized the nutso boss had them BLOW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN ON IT.
Why did the rebellion--consisting of mostly human men--retreat to the Ice Planet of Hoth? Because the empire BLEW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN ON IT. Lots of snow is useful for cooling the fevers of lonely men.
So basically the Empire was defeated not by the force, not by the rebels, but by mother nature. It was doomed the moment the BLEW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN ON IT.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Blayne Bradley
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Have you actually taken the time to see the movies recently? This appears to be a case of Critical Research Failure, there was plenty of women in the films, mostly as extra's but they were there.
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There weren't plenty of women, really. But the Rebellion was actually led by Mon Mothma, a non-Alderaanian woman.
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The "general" was Grand Moff Tarkin, a sort of warlord/governor.
You have to delve into the EU to get the backstory on the other women who appear in the movies. I do think the original trilogy is somewhat male-dominated, but Leia plays a pretty central role. On the other hand, with the exception of Mon Mothma, most of the other women in the movies are fodder, like Aunt Beru, or the slave girls in Jabba's Palace, such as Oola, who was tossed to her death.
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I was going to say what Tom said about Mon Mothma. Also, the woman at the controls coordinating the evacuation from Hoth who commands the ion cannon to open fire. She seemed to be Leah's second from what I can tell.
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I forget...Aunt Beru was Anakin's step-sister right? I seem to remember that when Anakin's mother passed away in the second movie I seem to remember she was married, and her husband had a family.
It puzzles me that it seems like everyone knew who Darth Vader was, but no one ever thought to tell Luke or Leia. I understand they wanted to protect them, but come on. Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, as well as the Organas all knew Vader was Anakin.
Rather than beat around the bush with Luke and make up excuses, all Uncle Owen should have said was "You know that Darth Vader guy that goes around killing people and wiped out the Jedi? He's your father. That's why I don't want you to join the Empire. Oh, and you have a sister named Leia. She's pretty cute, but don't kiss her. It will create a REALLY awkward situation later. "
I have a question about the Clone Wars show on Cartoon network. Is this considered canon? The animated series was awesome (Yoda using the force to bring down a star destroyer? So cool!), but I haven't gotten around to watching the CG one.
Also, does anyone have an update on the live action Star Wars series that is supposed to be coming out? Last I heard it was a go but wouldn't be released until 2011 or 2012. Has anyone heard anything?
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posted
Regarding why they weren't told... Both children were clearing looking for adventure and excitement. Leia was all gung-ho against the Empire. Bail Organa would certainly not have possibly further endangered his daughter and/or given or reasont to take extra risks by telling her who her real father was.
Luke just wanted to be a space adventurer or something. He wanted to explore the grand space. Uncle Owen wanted, very firmly, to keep him on Tatooine to protect him. Its completely out of character of Owen Lars to have told Luke about Vader. It would have completely gone against his entire goal.
As for the other's existence, Owen probably didn't know about Leia or didn't want to give Luke further reason to go exploring space. Bail knew why they were separated and didn't want to give Leia cause to meet up with her brother (plus, he would then have to explain Vader). By the time secrecy was not needed both were dead.
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quote:it puzzles me that it seems like everyone knew who Darth Vader was, but no one ever thought to tell Luke or Leia. I understand they wanted to protect them, but come on. Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, as well as the Organas all knew Vader was Anakin.
IIRC, Obi-wan left Anakin for dead in the third movie and I don't recall Obi-Wan or Yoda learning that he had taken the name Darth Vader. I could be wrong, but it seemed like they both knew he had turned to the dark side, but I don't remember anything that indicates that they knew he was still alive. I don't know, is there any indication in Episode 3 that they were hiding the kids from anyone except Palpatine?
Concerning the opening post and the expanded universe: I've often heard the original movies referred to as canonical. I think it fits nicely.
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quote:Also, does anyone have an update on the live action Star Wars series that is supposed to be coming out? Last I heard it was a go but wouldn't be released until 2011 or 2012. Has anyone heard anything?
Last I heard, scripts were being written, and some preliminary casting was underway. Their biggest obstacles were budget and technical. George Lucas said they had to try and fit $10 million worth of effects into a $1 million budget per episode, and it was more difficult than he thought it would be. But it's still a go.
The last guess was that filming might start at the end of 2010 or early 2011. I'm betting we'll get another announcement at Celebration.
I still think that this series isn't a bad idea per se, but that they would have had a home run if they had turned Stackpole's X-Wing series into a TV show. Or even better, if they'd started it, and then done Wraith Squadron. We know Americans love shows about the military, and here you have space battles, dog fights, and ground fights. And it's pretty funny. And the characters are really interesting. There's even romance here and there. Plus you have a couple of seasons pre-built in from the books and comics. Plus eventually you get Jedi from Corran Horn.
quote:it puzzles me that it seems like everyone knew who Darth Vader was, but no one ever thought to tell Luke or Leia. I understand they wanted to protect them, but come on. Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, as well as the Organas all knew Vader was Anakin.
IIRC, Obi-wan left Anakin for dead in the third movie and I don't recall Obi-Wan or Yoda learning that he had taken the name Darth Vader. I could be wrong, but it seemed like they both knew he had turned to the dark side, but I don't remember anything that indicates that they knew he was still alive. I don't know, is there any indication in Episode 3 that they were hiding the kids from anyone except Palpatine?
Concerning the opening post and the expanded universe: I've often heard the original movies referred to as canonical. I think it fits nicely.
Obi-Wan knew who Darth Vader was in Episode 4 for sure. After he had saved Luke from the sand people he took Luke to his home, where he told him that Darth Vader had murdered his father and hunted the rest of the jedi down. Why would he say this to Luke if he thought Anakin died on the volcano planet?
Obi-Wan knew who Darth Vader was when they had met later in the Death Star.
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quote:Originally posted by Epictetus: IIRC, Obi-wan left Anakin for dead in the third movie and I don't recall Obi-Wan or Yoda learning that he had taken the name Darth Vader. I could be wrong, but it seemed like they both knew he had turned to the dark side, but I don't remember anything that indicates that they knew he was still alive.
Both Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that Anakin had become Darth Vader: when they were watching the security footage of Anakin killing the kids in the Jedi Temple, Darth Sidious refers to his apprentice as "Lord Vader," who is clearly - and unhoodedly (which is the technical term... ) - Anakin.
As far as I remember, they were hiding the twins from Darth Sidious, though I imagine it didn't take too long for news of Vader's survival to permeate even out to the Outer Rim.
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Dude, how could someone who's screen name is based on Star Wars not know that Alderaan and Naboo are two different planets? I think the only Alderaanians we ever see in the movies are Leia and her "father" Bail Organa.
And yes, Obi-wan and Yoda knew who Vader was from the time they saw his handiwork in the Temple. Presumably Obi-wan told Owen, Beru, and Bail Organa. None of them knew that Vader survived his injuries on Mustafar until a little while later. Obi-wan didn't go there to leave him badly injured and very pissed off. He thought he had left him to die. I'm just not sure why he left him to die slowly in agony rather than swiftly putting him out of his misery.
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Fair enough. I remember now that Obi-Wan mentions Darth Vader before they even meet on the Death Star. My Star Wars trivia days date from a time before the prequels, at which point I kind of stopped paying attention. I was basing my opinion on the NPR Star Wars radio drama in which Obi-Wan doesn't realize Vader is still alive until they land on the Death Star and he feels his presence.
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quote:Dude, how could someone who's screen name is based on Star Wars not know that Alderaan and Naboo are two different planets? I think the only Alderaanians we ever see in the movies are Leia and her "father" Bail Organa
Tycho Celchu is seen in the movies, he was a pilot from Alderaan. The captain of the Tantive IV, Captain Antilles, is the guy we see Vader strangling to death in the opening scene of A New Hope. If you count the prequels, then you have Bail Organa. I'm sure there are more, but names don't come to mind.
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posted
Not to belabor the issues taken with the Opening Post, but the Episode One nonsense about the "midichlorians" being responsible for all Jedi powers means that the Jedi powers could only be transferred by women, since midichlorians obviously are similar to, if not the same thing as, mitichondria, which are not part of the genetic exchange, but come from the cellular cytoplasm of the mother. In other words, all the Jedi came from a Jedi "Eve." Who knows how Yoda got in there!
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Lyrhawn, If you disagree with my take on the midichlorians, then please explain how midichlorians became so "concentrated" in Anakin's cellular makeup. All you have to do is use a little logic, and a knowledge of how genetic exchange works. You do remember Obi Wan Kenobe's discussion with the members of the Jedi Council of how midichlorians were more concentrated in Anakin than had ever been seen before, don't you?
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posted
I disagree with what you're saying because other than the similar sounding names there's nothing to support the notion that midichlorians are anything like mitochondia. Not to mention the fact that Luke and Leia clearly inherited their Force sensitivity from their father, not their mother. And what does Anakin's midi count have to do with anything?
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posted
I remember the discussion, I have no idea why you think that automatically means it's female dominant, or why you think it has anything at all to do with mitochondria. First of all, midichlorians are in ALL living beings. Are you suggesting that every creature in existence in the Star Wars universe in every race, animal, plant or anything else, all have mitochondrial DNA, and pass their lineage on through the female line?
I would say that your theory only makes sense if you consider only human biology but it doesn't even make sense then.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Yes, Lyrhawn, mitochondrial DNA can only be passed through the female line. Mitochondria are not transferred genetically, they are transferred by being in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell.
Whatever midichlorians are, they could not be transmitted genetically. Genes contain DNA. That only leaves the female egg cytoplasm.
Don't you hate it when the fantasy part of science fiction becomes too dumb for words? Let's just face it--George Lucas blew it with this one.
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Yeah, it sucks when we have to rely on mere humans to provide our perfect fake-universe scenarios.
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I don't get why people hate the midis so much. For one, it was already established that there is a biological/genetic basis for Force power in the original trilogy. As Luke said, the Force is strong in his family. Second, midis were necessary to explain why Anakin is special and how he was conceived. Many fans seem to misunderstand and think that Lucas is saying that the midis are the Force or that they create it, thus diminishing the mysticism. But that's not how they are described in TPM.
And I'm still not getting why one should assume that they are inherited like mitochondrial DNA, especially since as I said above Luke and Leia inherited Force powers from their FATHER.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Dude, Ron, if you just look up midichlorians on the internet you can find out in about five minutes that they have nothing to do with mitochondria.
They also don't have to follow any genetic rules anyway because they're a fantasy symbiote written into a plot by a bad writer.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: All you have to do is use a little logic, and a knowledge of how genetic exchange works.
Okay; used a little logic; concluded that midichlorians, as a fictional magical plot device in a fantasy sci-fi world, have no requirement to adhere to non-fictional genetic exchange.
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posted
Science fiction must not break the cardinal rule that it must never violate known science. Otherwise it is not science fiction. Violating known science negates suspension of disbelief. You might as well invoke magic--and not in the sense of Clarke's Third Law, either. The only real way I can enjoy Star Wars is to ignore George Lucas' whole prattle about midichlorians and pretend he never said it. If you take it seriously as part of the story, IT DOES NOT WORK!
By the way, I would not say that George Lucas is a bad writer. His plots, characters, and imagination, are very good. He is just woefully weak on his science at times.
If midichlorians exist, then it is inescapable that there must have been a Jedi Eve!
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Your cardinal rule is not actually a cardinal rule, nor do the 'midichlorians' violate any known science involving mitochondria, because they have nothing to do with mitochondria. You just assumed so.
quote:By the way, I would not say that George Lucas is a bad writer. His plots, characters, and imagination, are very good.
posted
I actually agree with Ron that his plots, characters, and imagination are very good. He's fantastic at coming up with great stories. He's awful at dialogue and not good at executing them on the screen. I think he's much better off handing off his excellent ideas to a better screen writer and then signing off on an acceptable compromise.
I don't think the prequels are awful. I think the bad attention they get is extremely melodramatic. I don't think they're exceptionally awesome, but I like much of the underlying story, and there's a lot of great space adventure fun in them. With the exception of a couple truly awful pieces of dialogue, I thought Ep III was excellent. With the exception of Jar Jar, I thought Ep I was really good and a lot of fun.
Ron, I still have no idea why you're so devoted to midichlorians being attached to mitochondria, and you don't appear willing to listen to anyone else on this.
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Lyr, have you watched the link Samp provided? I didn't think the prequels were so bad, but after watching that and seeing how truly mindless and un-thought-out it was, I can't stand them.
In fact, he did the same thing for First Contact. As a ST fanboy, I still love that movie. But it's full of character inconsistencies and just stupid decisions it hurts to think about it.
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Even if you are a 'oh just shut your brain off and enjoy the movies' type and enjoyed the movies, it's amply demonstrated that the writing was bad! the movies are hallmarks and perfect demonstrations of Lucas being a bad writer. He's bad! His writing is bad!
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Lyr, What would you say that the story of the prequels was? I honestly didn't see much of a story at all.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Science fiction must not break the cardinal rule that it must never violate known science. Otherwise it is not science fiction. Violating known science negates suspension of disbelief. You might as well invoke magic--and not in the sense of Clarke's Third Law, either. The only real way I can enjoy Star Wars is to ignore George Lucas' whole prattle about midichlorians and pretend he never said it. If you take it seriously as part of the story, IT DOES NOT WORK!
By the way, I would not say that George Lucas is a bad writer. His plots, characters, and imagination, are very good. He is just woefully weak on his science at times.
If midichlorians exist, then it is inescapable that there must have been a Jedi Eve!
You're still not answering the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria. There are other organelles, you know. Would we be having this discussion if Lucas had arbitrarily named them ribosomians?
You're also missing another very important fact... Star Wars is science fantasy. It always has been. It's knights, and wizards, and princesses in space. It's never, ever, tried to be scientifically credible.
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I'm not sure if I want to look at Samp's links, at least, especially not for First Contact. I'm satisfied with my present views.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Lyr, What would you say that the story of the prequels was? I honestly didn't see much of a story at all.
I'd say there were two stories. There's Anakin Skywalker being manipulated into turning towards the dark side. He has mommy issues, feelings of guilt, ironically, feelings of powerlessness despite being an extremely powerful being, and his quest for power is what erodes his morality.
The larger story is macroscopic, it's how Palpatine, as his Sith alter-ego, created a foil to manipulate the Republic into voluntarily handing over power to a mad dictator without knowing it, and then used his democratically elected authority to defeat his initial puppet. Once that was done, he used the OTHER puppet army, that was literally genetically designed to obey his commands to knock out the one real threat to his power. Then he consolidated and ruled the galaxy for a couple decades.
You might not have liked the story because of dialogue land mines and stuff like Jar Jar, and I'm not saying Lucas is Shakespeare or anything, but there is clearly a story. The original trilogy had a story. All three Indiana Jones movies had a story. It was pulp fiction, not high art, but that's fine.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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No, I think we may have different ideas of what constitutes a story. To me, it's not being told that some things happened, but rather a coherent narrative. To me, the prequels had plot points and they had "cool" or "funny" action sequences and everything else was only there to get us to those things but did not have to make sense in and of themselves.
Consider, for example, the absolute idiocy of what led up to the pod race in TPM. There was absolutely no need for any of that. It made no sense from a character perspective, a story perspective, or something that any reasonable person would do. It was only there so that we could get to pod race.
Speaking of absurd, the trade federation invasion force lands on the opposite side of Naboo from the capital city, which seemed like their only target. Why? The only explanation is that we needed the two jedi to meet with the Gungans, steal a transport from them, and then travel through the core of the planet because it's "cool" to do it that way.
Again, from TPM, Palapatine set up this "plot" that had at it's crowning moment, Amidala calling for a vote of no confidence in the senate. Great, except that her getting there to do so was an undertaking of heroic proportions, opposed at every step of the way by both the Trade federation patsies and Darth Maul, who were both taking direct orders from him.
The movies constantly fail in these ways to tell anything like a coherent narrative. I can't think of a single plot point that isn't prey to at least one of these things.
And that's leaving aside the god awful mess you got from them trying to cram largely unconnected and emotionally and thematically incongruous sequences together. Again, just drawing from TPM, the ending sequence has four separate threads going on, the Darth Maul fight (sad) with the palace recapture (tense) and the absurd Gungan/droid fight (slapstick comedy) and the appalling bad Anakin randomly pressing buttons saves the day (?). This is like the worst way you could attempt to tell a story. I have no doubt that it is studied in film schools for the sheer enormity of its compounded crimes against narrative storytelling.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
And you know, why didn't Gandalf just have Gwaihir fly Frodo to Orodruin at the start, rather than having them actually go on that stupid, useless quest, where lots of people died unnecessarily?
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posted
Incidentally, looking at Red Letter Media...
His Star Trek: First Contact review speaks of the movie as though it's bad. It isn't! I thought it was the best of the Next Generation movies, and a fun movie to begin with. It's not perfect or "great", but it's pretty fun!
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And you know, why didn't Gandalf just have Gwaihir fly Frodo to Orodruin at the start, rather than having them actually go on that stupid, useless quest, where lots of people died unnecessarily?
I think a better example would be the numerous plot holes in the Harry Potter books. There are tons of times in these books where they establish some piece of magic that later would almost effortless solve the problem that people are having. However, despite giving readers an opportunity to snigger a little bit about these things, ultimately the HP books have an often very well told coherent narrative.
Why that is is actually a pretty interesting question that I haven't given much thought to. My initial thoughts are that they're pretty obviously the author forgetting things or are in service of the story.
I don't see this in, for example, the setup for the pod race. Would you consider the pod race or the elements that led up to it integral to the story? To me, they seem obviously a case where they wanted to do a wicked cool pod race and weren't going to let anything like the principles of storytelling get in their way.
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posted
I think maybe I'm doing something wrong here. Lyr, you obviously really enjoy the Star Wars prequels. I don't want to take that away from you.
I was just trying to show that there are some well established reasons why people say that the Star Wars prequels represent horrible story telling. I didn't finish the Red Letter stuff that Samp posted because, man, that's long, but it looks like he hit a lot of the thing I've seen as well.
I think the choice to not look at this stuff because it might cause you to dislike things that you take happiness from now may be a good one, so I think I'll bow out.
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posted
I agree 100% that the pod race was absolutely unnecessary and very much a really cool thing that Lucas wanted an excuse to shoe horn into the movie. I actually didn't even care for the pod race, but then, I didn't much like young Anakin at all anyway. His age was one of my biggest problems with TPM.
I think the story is still there, even if a lot of the elements that get us from Point A to Point B in actually telling the story aren't particularly well put together. I think people tend to especially overanalyze the prequels is because they loved the originals and felt uber-disappointed by something that didn't live up (and I agree that they didn't really live up to it either, with the possible exception of EP III, which I will actually defend as being a pretty good Star Wars movie). I know a lot of the arguments, I've made some of them myself, but in this case, I just don't care. I can still watch it, enjoy it, laugh at some of the cringe-inducing moments and then forget them five seconds later. My person view is that Star Wars was never really intended to be excellent cinema. It has always been a space romp, with cheesy dialogue, cheesy hair styles, cheesy clothes, and in some cases, some pretty silly actions that don't make a lot of sense (read: thermal exhaust port that blows up the entire Death Star). If I went into it with the same sort of expectations that I take with me to one of my English lit classes, I'm sure I'd be disappointed, but this wasn't designed for that, so why would I apply a set of standards it was clearly not made to meet, and that will likely ruin my enjoyment of it?
The prequels aren't his best work, nor was the ending of the last Indiana Jones movie. But by and large, his movies are wildly successful, he's like the tenth richest man in Hollywood, and that's AFTER his wife got half in the divorce. Clearly he creates stories that people enjoy and that resonate with people.
PS. I'm not saying this to be argumentative, just to sort of explain my own personal philosophy when it comes to Lucas and the prequels in general. And also, thanks Squick, that last post was a nice gesture. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Lyrhawn, your position is kind of muting itself. We've gone from
1. He's a good writer
to
2. There's a story
to
3. Okay it's not his best work but he is financially successful
.. this is getting there. The Transformers series is a huge box office success. The writing is garbage. The plot is stupid. The director is horrible.
I'm not saying you should be unable to enjoy the movies! I had an enjoyable enough time at III (though I could absolutely not enjoy I and II).
My point is that the idea that George Lucas is a good writer is wrong. He is a bad writer, and all three of the prequel movies are, essentially, terribly written. We are stuck at an odd impasse because you wish to continue to make the case that there's still a good story while purposely keeping yourself from confronting the data that shows otherwise -- a sort of an Ignorance is Bliss approach -- but, if you wish to keep an honest dialogue over the quality of George Lucas as a writer, then, I think you need to watch my creepy incompetent serial murderer friend talk about the Star Wars prequel.
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Incidentally, looking at Red Letter Media...
His Star Trek: First Contact review speaks of the movie as though it's bad. It isn't! I thought it was the best of the Next Generation movies, and a fun movie to begin with. It's not perfect or "great", but it's pretty fun!
He starts the review by timidly admitting it's not all that bad, but here's why HE hates it (it stars Movie Picard)
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