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Author Topic: Obama releases long form birth certificate
Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Stone_Wolf_, I already gave examples. How many things has Obama said about anything important that you can show were true?
You are claiming him to be a proven liar about "substantive issues"...I'm not claiming anything.

So you're saying that his relationship with William Ayres and his preacher are the "substantive issues" which he has been "proven" to have lied about?

Please address my other points.

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Destineer
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Yeah, mine too.
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Destineer
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quote:
[Trump] claims the presidentís grandmother says Obama was born in Kenya. In fact, the recording to which he refers shows Sarah Obama repeatedly saying through a translator: "He was born in America."
http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/donald-youre-fired/
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Rakeesh
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quote:
The issue about Barack Obama's college records is that most thoughtful people would like to be able to read his master's thesis, where he sets forth his basic philosophical views. This is surely highly relevant to a person's desirability to hold the office of president. Did he espouse Muslim beliefs? Did he make blatantly racist statements? What is he trying to conceal? Most people would want their masters' theses to be as widely read as possible.
Many would like to read his master's thesis, but you get the motives wrong. Few except the fringe are concerned that he espouses Muslim beliefs, or racist beliefs. You can see a sign of that (since apparently we're just admitting individual opinion as relevant here, such as what his grandma says) by the fact that almost the only people who are actually worried that he might've said something Muslim or racist are themselves race-baiting Islamophobes.

quote:


The claim one person made that all the evidence was on Obama's side is plainly not true. Obama's own grandmother who lives in Kenya said he was born in her village, and she was present in the room when he was born. Video recordings of an interview where she said "Barack nate dhalani" (Barack born [in] this village) has long been available on the Internet for anyone to listen to and watch for themselves.

I'm curious: who said 'all the evidence was on Obama's side'? It's interesting that you choose to characterize it that way, since that's about the level of rigor and honesty we can expect from the birther side of this discussion. 'one person said'. If one person said it, and you saw them say it, it ought to be pretty straightforward to say who said it, Ron. You being a man who can read and this discussion not being very old.

quote:


Now, this may not constitute conclusive proof. But it is largely on the basis of this that many people have had serious questions about whether Obama was born in Hawaii, or in Kenya. Why would his grandmother lie about where he was born? Surely anyone with even the least bit of intellectual honestly must admit that the testimony of Obama's grandmother does raise a legitimate question that deserves to be considered.

It's a country of hundreds of millions of people. Many people believe in astrology, Ron. Many people believe in fortune cookies. Many people believe in lucky numbers. And it does not at all serve as conclusive proof. What it does do is serve as a reason to ask the question. "OK, Obama's grandmother says he wasn't born in the USA. In fact she's specific. Let's dig deeper."

Well, people did dig deeper. A lot deeper. Over and over and over again. Y'know what they found? They found out that, hey-he was born in the USA. Hawaii in fact. Produced documents to that effect, in fact. As much as is required of anyone else. But because the man didn't have a time machine with attached DNA sampler and 3D video camera, that ain't enough. We don't know, because his grandmomma say, and that 'may be not be conclusive proof, but...'

quote:

For example, he told the American people in a nationwide broadcast during the campaign that William Ayres (former Weather Underground terrorist who planted bombs that killed people)

Really? I'm looking at Ayers right now, and while there's no denyin' that he was in the Weather Underground, I'm not finding any deaths on Ayers's name specifically as you say. There's plenty for Ayers - and Obama himself, in fact - to live down because hey, guy belonged to a terrorist organization. But hey, you don't need to stick to proven facts, do ya?

(Let's not also examine other presidential associations. Non-liberal presidential associations, Presidents who don't have scary Arabic sounding names for example.)

quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people can flatly reject evidence, turn away from even fairly considering it, and prefer apparently to just go by the emotional feelings of the majority.
You've been deceptive and duplicitous throughout this post and as a matter of course in your political and religious discussion on this forum for years, Ron. For example, going on to discuss Obama's Indonesian citizenship and what an Indonesian school said about his religion decades ago. Hell, those certainly aren't issues that have been done to death in the whole birther lunatic fringe conspiracy bid. No.

And the fact that birthers have long claimed, "We haven't seen the real birth certificate is evidence!" has been heard long and loud...but now you (and others) say, "Pft, that doesn't really show anything," that's not dishonest and cowardly. No. No, as usual you're the voice in the wilderness, heroically preachin' to the heathens.

ETA: Man Destineer, it becomes a lot less fun hanging Ron out to dry if you just show him up right off like that.

[ April 28, 2011, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]

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Ron Lambert
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Rakeesh, I was referring to James Tiberious Kirk, where he said: "The debate should have been closed years ago, seeing as all the evidence was in his favor."
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people can flatly reject evidence, turn away from even fairly considering it, and prefer apparently to just go by the emotional feelings of the majority.

Imagine how the rest of us feel. [Wink]
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Destineer
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quote:
ETA: Man Destineer, it becomes a lot less fun hanging Ron out to dry if you just show him up right off like that.
Google's a real bitch. (I knew I remembered reading about that grandma thing somewhere.)
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Rakeesh, I was referring to James Tiberious Kirk, where he said: "The debate should have been closed years ago, seeing as all the evidence was in his favor."
Well, since Destineer went and spoiled my fun: the grandmother thing ain't evidence. What else ya got?

Because you were flat-out 100% wrong about what you said was 'evidence'. And that was the only thing you actually presented as evidence. So it would seem that, yeah, JTK is right: all the evidence is/i] in his favor. Or, wait, are we gonna be talking about what Indonesia said about his citizenship back when he was in school? Is [i]that the new evidence?

I just wanna be clear here. Y'know, for fun. (Not that I expect you to be a decent, honest human being when it comes to discussing politics and admit you were wrong in a straightforward way about the Obama grandmomma thing. No, you'll weasel and connive like most other conspiracy theorists.)

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Ron Lambert
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Rakeesh, you said: "You've been deceptive and duplicitous throughout this post and as a matter of course in your political and religious discussion on this forum for years, Ron."

This is not true and has never been true. This is just the way you deal with my arguments and cited evidences when you can answer them in no other way but to engage in character assassination. May God be the witness between us of who is telling the truth and who is a liar and being deceptive and duplicitous. I confidently await God's judgment.

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Destineer
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Good thing your salvation doesn't hinge on being right about the grandma thing.
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Ron Lambert
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Destineer, my salvation does depend upon my being honest. There can be no hope for anyone who is not honest, for then how much would his profession of faith mean?

My point is that there has always been and does remain a serious question, and none of the efforts anyone here has ever made to dismiss it have been valid. It is inexcusable that anyone would refuse to admit there is a resonable question that has been raised. Taking your position on answering the question is one thing. But denying that the question is real is intellectually dishonest.

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MattP
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So Ron, you stand by the grandma thing? You believe the original translator was correct about what she was saying and that subsequent translators have been incorrect?
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The Rabbit
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quote:
My point is that there has always been and does remain a serious question, and none of the efforts anyone here has ever made to dismiss it have been valid.
There is no serious question. A full transcript of the interview with Obama's grandmother shows that she very clearly said repeatedly that Obama was born in Hawaii, not Kenya. His certified birth certificate (both the original and the short form) verify that he was born in Hawaii. The newspaper in Hawaii reported his birth. The state of Hawii has verified that this report came from the government. I can not believe that any honest human being could conclude there remains any serious question about where Obama was born.

[ April 28, 2011, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Rakeesh
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Lookit how much we're suddenly not talking about Obama's grandmomma. Ron, I'm not sure if you think we're this stupid to not notice, or if you actually believe in what you just did there.

A little while ago, you were raising some ruckus about how there was a point, some evidence, about how maybe Obama isn't a citizen because of what his grandmother said about where he was or wasn't born. You suggested honest, serious people wanted to take a real close look at the question on account of what she said and you suggested it was weak-minded not to want to do so.

Well now it's been demonstrated that, no, she didn't say that at all. In fact, Obama's grandmomma said he was born in the United States. But you're still saying, "There's a real question." Apparently there's just a real question because you say there's a real question.

Because when you say there's a real question and give reasons, and those reasons get knocked down, well then there's still a real question somehow. Someway. Not only that, but people who refuse to admit there's a question are behaving inexcusably.

It's interesting, though-I'm not sure if you pivoted to God and righteousness because I mentioned religious discussion, or if it's because that's your go-to in these situations. But it's not character assassination. You 'presented evidence'. It was answered. It's right up there on the forum for God and everybody to see. You're not fooling everyone, no matter how fast you type and how hard you pray.

But keep tryin'! Wear out those kneepads and fingertips!

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Stone_Wolf_
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Ron, you keep talking about honesty, and yet, when people try and discuss this issue with you, you do not engage. You ignore questions and then call people names.

You should be ashamed of the manner in which you have treated people here.

I believe in freedom, and would fight so that you keep the right to believe whatever you wish, to question authority and say whatever you like, but if you want to be treated seriously, you should start acting in a fashion which treats the people you are trying to convince with the honest decency and respect that they deserve.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Stone_Wolf_, I already gave examples. How many things has Obama said about anything important that you can show were true?

You failure to care about things you should care about only idicts your own capacity as a responsible elector. My only comfort is that people who think the way you do generally are too apathetic to vote.

*slow clap*
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Stone_Wolf_
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BB...I'm confused by your slow clapping...what is it supposed to mean?
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BlackBlade
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Stone_Wolfe_: I believe Blayne is golf clapping.
----

In other news, we have a new Defence Secretary, and head of the CIA, is anybody talking about them?

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Strider
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Also, I think BlackBlade is our official BB.
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scifibum
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I thought it was Bella Bee. [Dont Know]
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Strider
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I'm making a formal request that no more BB handles be allowed to register. I don't think Hatrack can handle the consequences.
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BlackBlade
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I once made a play on getting exclusive rights to "BB", enough posters protested that it didn't take. It confuses the heck out me sometimes, until I find a Blayne post above it.
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Stone_Wolf_
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My brain/fingers finds it way easier to type BlackBlade then Blayne Bradley...plus I don't have to scroll up two or three times to see how BlackBlade is spelled...

Whats the story behind your name, the real BB? Why not GreyEdge?

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msquared
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Ron's normal stomping ground of people just like him is down so he is slumming here.

msquared

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
My brain/fingers finds it way easier to type BlackBlade then Blayne Bradley...plus I don't have to scroll up two or three times to see how BlackBlade is spelled...

Whats the story behind your name, the real BB? Why not GreyEdge?

Why not GreyEdge? Because BlackBlade is far superior in every way.

Also, Link. We'll call it my birth certificate.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Streachy squirrel card?
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natural_mystic
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
For example, he told the American people in a nationwide broadcast during the campaign that William Ayres (former Weather Underground terrorist who planted bombs that killed people) was "just a guy who lives down the street."

Source? In particular, the full quote that I've seen is: "This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis." See http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html. The insertion of the "just" I've found preface people quoting Obama sarcastically. In most cases they get the quotation marks right (i.e. they don't include the 'just' in the quoted text).
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Dobbie
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
Also, I think BlackBlade is our official BB.

What if he signs up?
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
BB...I'm confused by your slow clapping...what is it supposed to mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcnpZYmNAuI
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I'm sure it's because of something patently unfair; let's just work on that as we make more and more insistent calls like "why hasn't he shown his transcripts yet? what is he hiding!"

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Did he espouse Muslim beliefs? Did he make blatantly racist statements? What is he trying to conceal?

Wolf Blitzer, stunned and as if in a trance, repeats "Amazing, amazing."
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Destineer, my salvation does depend upon my being honest. There can be no hope for anyone who is not honest, for then how much would his profession of faith mean?

Then apologize and admit you were wrong about the grandmother thing, don't just weasel around it. Jesus.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
The issue about Barack Obama's college records is that most thoughtful people would like to be able to read his master's thesis, where he sets forth his basic philosophical views.

One's thesis is not part of one's transcript -- not at any college I have ever received transcripts from.

Also, his master's was in economics. His thesis was probably not all that philosophical -- his personal religious views were almost certainly not mentioned.

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DDDaysh
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lol...
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Samprimary
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I'm pretty sure that his thesis was actually probably just an alternate form of the Koran where William Ayers is Mohammad (Socialism Be Upon Him)
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
The issue about Barack Obama's college records is that most thoughtful people would like to be able to read his master's thesis, where he sets forth his basic philosophical views. This is surely highly relevant to a person's desirability to hold the office of president. Did he espouse Muslim beliefs? Did he make blatantly racist statements? What is he trying to conceal? Most people would want their masters' theses to be as widely read as possible.

I would like to read it, but there is one thing I would keep in mind while doing so:

Many times I wrote papers not about my own beliefs, but what I felt the one reading it wanted to hear in order to get a good grade. Sometimes, these were two VASTLY different things.

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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I'm pretty sure that his thesis was actually probably just an alternate form of the Koran where William Ayers is Mohammad (Socialism Be Upon Him)

[Big Grin] That sounds like a good idea for an alternate history / science fiction novel.
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Rappin' Ronnie Reagan
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Are you guys sure that Obama actually has a masters in economics? I can't find any reference to it on Wikipedia. It only mentions his BA and JD. His father, however, did have an MA in economics from Harvard.
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rivka
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RRR, good catch. In that case, the president's master's thesis is even less likely to have revelations about his religious beliefs. [Wink]
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The Rabbit
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Unlike transcripts, master's theses are almost always publicly available at the University library. But since Obama didn't write masters thesis, you are going to have great difficulty reading it.
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Swampjedi
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We need to keep digging. How do we know Obama isn't an agent, and we're in the Matrix?

You can't prove he isn't, which must mean he is.

On a slightly more serious track:

http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/birthers

Interesting take, though pretty cynical.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Unlike transcripts, master's theses are almost always publicly available at the University library.

Actually, from what I was reading yesterday, this is less true of master's theses than PhD theses -- the former are not always formally published in the same way, it seems. Depends on both specific school and specific era.
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Ron Lambert
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Samprimary, have you viewed the video of the interview with Obama's grandmother? I have. She said what she said. "Barack nate dhalani." I heard it for myself.

Now, if you can show that she later corrected herself and said that Barack was born in Hawaii or America, then I would concede the point. But so far as I can tell, she said what she said. I have heard no retraction. Can you provide a link to that portion of the interview you allege exists? I will not believe it exists unless I hear it for myself.

Natural Mystic, Obama referred to William Ayers more than once in his public statements. I did hear him myself refer to Ayers as "just a guy who lives down the street," using those exact words. So did the rest of America. Why do you feel a need to pretend he did not say it? Do you understand that he was trying to distance himself from Ayers? Do you understand why he felt the need to distance himself from Ayers? Do you deny that it has been proven that he did launch his campaign for Illinois congressman in William Ayers' living room? Have you read the evidence given by those who claim literary analysis indicates that it was most likely that William Ayers ghost-wrote Obama's books, that they use terms (such as sailing terms) that Obama never uses and would know nothing about? (Ayers is familiar with sailing.) Do you understand this issue at all? This Ayers issue alone, by itself, was sufficient reason for me not to vote for him, and to recommend to others that they should not vote for him. Both because of the extreme seriousness of a relation with such a person as Ayers (who only escaped going to prison with his wife, Bernadette, because the FBI botched its case, compromised the evidence, and they could not be tried again for the same crimes), and because of the fact that Obama directly and knowingly lied about his relationship with Ayers to everyone in America.

Again, the real problem I have with what so many people say about the various controversies involving Obama is that they do not really deal with the evidence, they merely try to pretend that no substantive questions have been raised, when clearly they have. Regardless of what ultimately is proven to be the truth--the fact remains that valid questions have been raised, and it is not honest to try to deal with them by pretending they are not and were never serious questions.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Natural Mystic, Obama referred to William Ayers more than once in his public statements. I did hear him myself refer to Ayers as "just a guy who lives down the street," using those exact words.
Your memory is incorrect. He did not use the word just. Check the videos.
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MattP
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The complete audio of the taped interview and transcript can be found here: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/03/sarah-obama-speaks/

The translator is unambiguous, stating at one point "she was here in Kenya, and Obama was born in America. That is, thatís obvious."

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Anyone who claims there is not still an issue is being dishonest.
quote:
May God be the witness between us of who is telling the truth and who is a liar and being deceptive and duplicitous. I confidently await God's judgment.
quote:
But denying that the question is real is intellectually dishonest.
quote:
Why do you feel a need to pretend he did not say it?
Agree with me or you are a liar.
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Ron Lambert
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Rabbit, I heard what I heard. You are mistaken.

MattP, both the transcript and the tape recording concern a phone conversation, and focus on the claim that Obama's grandmother said she was present when he was born. The testimony I provided a link to is from a video recording, inwhich you can see as well as hear Obama's grandmother say, "Barack nate dhalani." That means "Barack was born (in) this village." You have not refuted this evidence.

Furthermore, the video is the evidence that was current during the last presidential campaign. All the attempts at debunking, the phone call, etc., came later. The fact remains that there was a serious question raised at the time of the election, and no voter in American has any excuse for not treating it as a serious question.

A similar issue was raised by some people about John McCain, since he was born in the Canal Zone. He did not in any way try to hide this. Both his parents were American citizens, and he was born at the U.S. military base in the Canal Zone, which under treaty with Panama at that time, meant it was a U.S.-administered territory. A law was passed several decades ago which resolved this issue (since it had come up before), that a person born of American parents in a U.S. military facility should be considered to be a "natural born citizen," as the constitution requires.

Obama's refusal for three years to release his long-form certificate of live birth, was a serious error in judgment that added fuel to the fire, and contrasts directly with McCain's openness.

[ April 29, 2011, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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Destineer did, and you ignored him...twice.
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Rakeesh
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Let's be clear: Sarah Obama saying Obama was born in America, unequivocally ISN'T a refutation of the claim that she claims he was born in Kenya?

Ron, what WOULD refute this evidence of yours? I mean it's clear to everyone that the true answer is 'nothing', but I'm curious what you'll claim would refute it. What would it look like?

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Ron Lambert
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Stone_Wolf_, Destineer referred to the same phone conversation that MattP did. I am not trying to defend what Donald Trump has been saying lately. My contention is that the original issue during the last presidential campaign was raised by the video recording where Obama's grandmother says "Barack nate dhalani"--"Barack was born (in) this village."

No one has yet refuted this. It is fundamentally dishonest for anyone to claim that this did not raise a serious question during the campaign, that deserved to be dealt with more directly than merely being shrugged off by the majority of voters.

It is one thing to argue against a position or an interpretation of the evidence. It is quite another thing to refuse to consider the evidence at all, and recognize where serious questions have been raised.

[ April 29, 2011, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
But even if that weren't the case, recall that BHO's father had the same name. How do you know she wasn't talking about Barack Senior?

You have yet to address many other points, both I and other posters have brought up.
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