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Author Topic: Obama releases long form birth certificate
The Rabbit
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That transcript sickens me. McRae's dishonest is really putrid. It's bad enough that he's pretending to be a fan of Obama's while trying to trick his grandmother into revealing information that would disqualify him from the Presidential race, but then when it fails and she repeats over and over again that Obama was born in America, he edits out that part so he can perpetrate fraud. And if that's weren't bad enought, he tops it all off by interspersing his attempted fraud with talking about prayer and Jesus love.

It really makes me want to vomit.

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Ron Lambert
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Stone_Wolf_, the context of the conversations had nothing to do with Barack Hussein Obama Senior. Who cares where he was born?

And you have still not addressed my actual point, that there were substantive questions raised about Obama during the campaign, and there is no excuse for them to have been ignored as if they were not serious questions.

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Ron Lambert
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The Rabbit, if the account is accurate, then it seems that McRae was dishonest. But remember, this account is an effort by an opponent to discredit him. All such interpretations after the fact have less weight than actually watching the video and seeing and hearing for yourself what Obama's grandmother said.

Did she immediately correct herself in the video? Prove it. The phone call was separate, and took place later. Perhaps after someone had told her that if she maintained her testimony that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya, it could prevent Obama from being president.

And remember too that it was not Obama's grandmother who spoke on the phone, but the translator, who supposedly was speaking for her.

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Scott R
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As someone who is furious with the Obama camp for continuing the expansion of executive power that Bush II started, you'd think I would be the audience of choice for these allegations of conspiracy and fraud.

Alas. I am not. To be honest, these claims strike me as pathetic and ridiculous. Those who perpetuate them seem manipulative, uncivil and overall untrustworthy.

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Stone_Wolf_
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That's one for many...keep addressing.

I did address it...remember...we don't care? You may not like or agree with the answer, but there ya go...did you really expect to like or agree with any answer I was going to give you?

How about this...[sarcasm]we really should care, but the money the conspiracy to elect Obama campaign sent us was way too much, so we abandoned our Godliness and moral responsibility and elected a foreigner just to piss you off. [/sarcasm]

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Ron Lambert
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We may very well have a constitutional amendment before long where the "natural born citizen" requirement for president is dropped, in favor of simply requiring that a person be a U.S. citizen. Democrats may resist this, since it would allow Arnold Schwarzenegger to run for president.

Thus going forward from here, this whole issue of whether Obama was born in Kenya or Hawaii is not a critical determinate of whether he should be president--except as it may be indicative of his general pattern of deceitful convering up of nearly everything in his past. But it was still a serious question during the last presidential campaign.

Far more weighty are his associations with William Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, and others, and with the extreme positions he has espoused in the past.

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MattP
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Ron, your video is just not very compelling. None of us, including you, know the language well enough to judge the veracity of the translation and multiple additional statements from the grandmother contradict what the video claims she says in this statement.

Even if this video is 100% accurate about what she says, including the connotations and denotations of those words, it seems more likely that she's confused or mistaken than that Obama was actually born in that village. A round trip from Hawaii to Kenya using early 1960s-era air travel would be an expensive and arduous ordeal, even for someone who wasn't a pregnant teenager.

The documentary evidence and a practical evaluation of the circumstances necessary for the birther position to be correct overwhelmingly supports a Hawaiian birth.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I want to be clear about a few things with you.

I am a Libertarian, and a middle of the road extremist. I dislike the way Obama has acted, moving the country closer to socialist, but truly appreciate that he is well spoken and a dynamic leader.

But the truth of the matter is that he has been our president for over two years, and no matter what you think people should care about or not, you are beating a dead and rotting horse.

Pick current, relevant reasons not to like/trust him and just accept that your current jihad has already been settled, right, wrong or indifferent it is over.

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Ron Lambert
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MattP, the airlines did use jet planes in the 1960's. That is when most of the jet airliners were still new. Did you ever hear the Peter, Paul, and Mary Vietnam era war protest song, "Leaving on a Jet Plane"?

But your point about the arduous round trip from Hawaii to Kenya is interesting. Do you deny that Barack's mother did fly to Kenya shortly before his birth? Then you have two problems: The question whether she was able to get back to Hawaii in time for Barack's birth, and whether Barack's grandmother could have flown to Hawaii. The latter should probably be discounted. If Obama's grandmother was present in the delivery room when Obama was born, it could not have been in Hawaii, since it is unlikely she could have afforded the trip.

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natural_mystic
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Natural Mystic, Obama referred to William Ayers more than once in his public statements. I did hear him myself refer to Ayers as "just a guy who lives down the street," using those exact words. So did the rest of America. Why do you feel a need to pretend he did not say it? Do you understand that he was trying to distance himself from Ayers? Do you understand why he felt the need to distance himself from Ayers? Do you deny that it has been proven that he did launch his campaign for Illinois congressman in William Ayers' living room? Have you read the evidence given by those who claim literary analysis indicates that it was most likely that William Ayers ghost-wrote Obama's books, that they use terms (such as sailing terms) that Obama never uses and would know nothing about? (Ayers is familiar with sailing.) Do you understand this issue at all? This Ayers issue alone, by itself, was sufficient reason for me not to vote for him, and to recommend to others that they should not vote for him. Both because of the extreme seriousness of a relation with such a person as Ayers (who only escaped going to prison with his wife, Bernadette, because the FBI botched its case, compromised the evidence, and they could not be tried again for the same crimes), and because of the fact that Obama directly and knowingly lied about his relationship with Ayers to everyone in America.

Do you understand that I did not hear Obama say that? Do you understand that in good faith I tried to find out whether he in fact did say that? Do you understand that I could not find the quote you ascribed to him, despite the fact that this was a big issue before the election? Do you understand why I might regard factcheck a far more creditable source than the hazy memory of a Palin-fanatic such as yourself? Do you understand that even though I ask you to source your quote, you are either unwilling or unable to do so?

To answer your questions:
"Do you understand that he was trying to distance himself from Ayers?"
"Do you understand why he felt the need to distance himself from Ayers?"
Clearly. He must be the devil-incarnate to not want his candidacy torpedoed because he's had some interaction with someone who committed a crime when he was 8.

"Do you deny that it has been proven that he did launch his campaign for Illinois congressman in William Ayers' living room?"
I have heard it described as a 'meet-and-greet.' I have not heard Obama deny this, and I'm not sure that having a meet-and-greet at the house of someone influential in local politics constitutes an endorsement of all their prior actions, including those done when you are 8.

"Have you read the evidence given by those who claim literary analysis indicates that it was most likely that William Ayers ghost-wrote Obama's books, that they use terms (such as sailing terms) that Obama never uses and would know nothing about? (Ayers is familiar with sailing.)"
I have read an article by Cashill. Two points:
1. I'm not sure this matters, other than one might not regard Obama as quite as good a writer. It certainly does not put him setting bombs when he was 8, or supporting the setting of those bombs.
2. I did not find the analysis particularly persuasive. I can elaborate later.

Unless you can substantiate your quote, you have yet to show that Obama lied.

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MrSquicky
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Stoney,
quote:
I dislike the way Obama has acted, moving the country closer to socialist
In what ways, besides the health care reform, has he in your opinion done this? Obviously, the socialist label gets thrown around a lot, but I'm curious about the details behind the label.
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Ron Lambert
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Stone_Wolf_, I still maintain that Obama would not have been elected if more voters had been more responsible in their choice.

Sure there are plenty of current reasons to distrust Obama, as you noted. These do have their roots in his past, and could have been predicted by those who cared to inform themselves about his past. But this thread is about the long-delayed publication of Obama's long-form birth certificate.

I am aware of the great "buyer's remorse" many of the people who voted for Obama are now experiencing. It is just too bad that they could not have had better foresight.

I am thankful that in some respects Obama has tended to gravitate a little more toward the moderate middle. He did not cut and run in Iraq or Afghanistan, and he has been willing (though largely forced) into making some concessions with Republicans.

Besides the things you mentioned, I am concerned about the hints of his favorable attitude toward Islam, and his hostility toward Israel. While I do think that Moammar Khaddafy is a very bad despot who deserves to be removed from power, I am nonetheless concerned that Obama has us fighting (or presently has our predator drones fighting) on the same side with Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the like. He also was pretty much consenting to the overthrow of Hosni Mubarik, who was one of America's true friends in the Arab world, even though that has left the country open to a takeover by the Muslim Brotherhood.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Dang it MrS...you are going to make me do research!

I'll get back to you forthwith.

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MattP
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quote:
Stone_Wolf_, I still maintain that Obama would not have been elected if more voters had been more responsible in their choice.
Well sure, but everyone who didn't vote for the guy (whoever the guy happens to be) is of that opinion. It's like saying "if people who disagree with me weren't wrong they'd be right." It's what everyone believes.
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Ron Lambert
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MrSquicky, Obama's creation of "Government Motors" (a.k.a. GM) seems socialistic--though perhaps it would technically be more accurate to characterize it as fascist. (Fascism does not mean anything right-wing--it means government being in bed with industry. This is how it was practiced under Hitler. And Hitler was a member of the National Socialist Party.)

As a resident of one of the northern suburbs of Detroit, I am glad that GM and Chrysler were saved from bankruptcy, so that more jobs in this disaster-struck region were not lost. But still I have reservations about the propriety of saying that any business is "too big to be allowed to fail." And I am proud of Ford Motor Company that they did not have to go through bankruptcy or accept any government bailout. There clearly is something superior in their management policies and practices.

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Stone_Wolf_
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You would not believe the results of a google search of "obama socialist"...

I was referring to the socialization of medical insurance...and I overstated my opinion.

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Ron Lambert
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Natural_Mystic, the problems with William Ayers are many, that go beyond the fact that he and Bernadette Devlin (now his wife) engaged in acts of terrorism including planting bombs that killed people. What remains of primary concern is his belief system that allowed him to do such things (of which he has never repented, and has recently said he only wished they had done more). He appears to have had some mentorship influence over Obama. (So did Jeremiah Wright, his extremist pastor for 20 years.) This is a real concern to me. The idea that anything goes, as long as he can get away with it, including telling any lies that are convenient, to defuse any inconvenient truths, etc. That is what I see in Obama, and I am sure Ayers did nothing to help him develop more of a conscience.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Fascism does not mean anything right-wing--it means government being in bed with industry
If you don't think "government being in bed with industry" is right-wing, you don't know what "right-wing" means. [Smile]
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kmbboots
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Ron, you might want to straighten out your Bernadette "terrorists". [Roll Eyes]

Rev. Wright wasn't an "extremist" pastor to anyone who knows more about him than the 3 or 4 sentences extracted from over 30 years worth of sermons. He was, in fact, someone who loved this country enough to serve in its military.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:

I am aware of the great "buyer's remorse" many of the people who voted for Obama are now experiencing. It is just too bad that they could not have had better foresight.

I am thankful that in some respects Obama has tended to gravitate a little more toward the moderate middle. He did not cut and run in Iraq or Afghanistan, and he has been willing (though largely forced) into making some concessions with Republicans.


Whatever "buyer's remorse" you note in the first quoted paragraph stems largely from the actions noted in the second paragraph quoted. We aren't bothered because the President is too far left.
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DarkKnight
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quote:
If you don't think "government being in bed with industry" is right-wing, you don't know what "right-wing" means
Um, I think the left wing is in a very similar bed, just different vendors... although a lot of them are the same
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MattP
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Which major corporate entities primarily support the left wing?
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Wingracer
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There is a difference between industry buying politicians and politicians buying industry.

I'm not saying one is good and one is bad, there are major problems with both. Just that there is a difference.

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DarkKnight
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Open Secrets

This is a link, or should be a link, to which industries contribute to which party more

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Destineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Stone_Wolf_, the context of the conversations had nothing to do with Barack Hussein Obama Senior. Who cares where he was born?

Just watched your video. There's no indication in the video where the one-sentence sound clip you're referring to came from. They just play it without providing any context. Given that, it's entirely possible she was talking about BHO Sr. Who was interviewing her? Where is the entire unedited recording of the interview?

Obama's grandmother isn't on screen while they're playing the clip, so it's not even clear that she's actually the one speaking. I tried looking this up and couldn't find any printed record of any conversation where Sarah Obama is reported to have said anything about Barack being born in Kenya, besides the discredited phone conversation.

This leads me to believe that the video is very possibly fabricated.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
(Fascism does not mean anything right-wing--it means government being in bed with industry. This is how it was practiced under Hitler. And Hitler was a member of the National Socialist Party.)

You don't know what fascism means, and I bet you're still correlating fascism with modern-day socialism because it's called "national socialism"

Even though we've already had the Ron Lambert Clarification Hour on this very subject, five times by my estimation.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Samprimary, have you viewed the video of the interview with Obama's grandmother? I have. She said what she said. "Barack nate dhalani." I heard it for myself.

Now, if you can show that she later corrected herself and said that Barack was born in Hawaii or America, then I would concede the point. But so far as I can tell, she said what she said. I have heard no retraction. Can you provide a link to that portion of the interview you allege exists? I will not believe it exists unless I hear it for myself.

This ought to be good.


quote:
No, Obama's grandmother didn't say he was born in Kenya

Another one of the birther myths hits the mainstream, courtesy of G. Gordon Liddy's appearance on MSNBC

Among those on television who've been covering the sudden public resurgence of the Birther movement -- but in a much more responsible way than Lou Dobbs -- is MSNBC's Chris Matthews. The other day, he beat up pretty badly on Rep. John Campbell, R-Calif., who's a co-sponsor of the "Birther bill" that would require future presidential candidates to provide proof of their natural-born citizenship. Thursday, he hosted Watergate burglar turned radio host G. Gordon Liddy, who's fallen under the Birthers' sway.

Liddy himself looked decidedly unwell, and sounded out of sorts -- even Matthews seemed to realize that making him into a piñata would be unsporting. I'm not going to do it either, but you can watch the video below.

I'm posting on the appearance, though, because of something Liddy said during it: "You've got a deposition, which is a sworn statement, from the step-grandmother, who says, 'I was present and saw him born in Mombasa, Kenya.'"

Liddy got this particular myth a little garbled, but it's a favorite of the Birthers'. I've covered it before, but it's worth posting on now, I think, because cable news is just getting back to this story (there was some coverage late last year, when the Supreme Court declined to hear one of the Birther lawsuits) and hosts like Matthews don't know all the crazy twists of the conspiracy theory well enough to knock them down.

What Liddy was referring to is actually an affidavit filed by a street preacher named Ron McRae, who conducted an interview with Sarah Obama, the second wife of President Obama's grandfather, through a translator. (Sarah Obama is not the president's biological grandmother, but he calls her "Granny Sarah.")

In that interview, Sarah Obama does in fact say at one point that she was there for her grandson's birth. But that was a mistake, a confusion in translation. As soon as a jubilant McRae began to press her for further details about her grandson being born in Kenya, the family realized the mistake and corrected him. And corrected him. And corrected him. (The audio is available for download here.)

No matter, though, because people who believe in a conspiracy theory simply hear what they want to hear. So some Birther sites have posted transcripts and YouTube clips that end abruptly with the mistranslation and don't include the corrections.

Here's the conversation:

quote:
MCRAE: Could I ask her about his actual birthplace? I would like to see his birthplace when I come to Kenya in December. Was she present when he was born in Kenya?

OGOMBE: Yes. She says, yes, she was, she was present when Obama was born.

MCRAE: When I come in December. I would like to come by the place, the hospital, where he was born. Could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?

OGOMBE: No, Obama was not born in Mombasa. He was born in America.

MCRAE: Whereabouts was he born? I thought he was born in Kenya.

OGOMBE: No, he was born in America, not in Mombasa.

MCRAE: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was going to go by and see where he was born.

OGOMBE: Hawaii. Hawaii. Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii. In the state of Hawaii, where his father was also learning, there. The state of Hawaii.


Politifact:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/07/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-president-obamas-grandmother-cau/

President Obama's grandmother caught on tape saying she witnessed his birth in Kenya: FALSE

People who actually speak the language have done an overview of the transcript, and there's no 'interpreter cover-up' — McRae was just trying to lead his elderly witness, and she just kept correcting it.

Now, which are you going to do? Admit your evidence isn't what you assured us it was, or are you going to go full-on bluster and fall in like with the idea that it must all just be part of the conspiracy and/or due to some assured language issues you don't have to concede anything?

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Destineer
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Samp, Ron seems to agree that the McRae interview was faked, but maintain there was another earlier interview in which she said he was born in Kenya. I haven't been able to find any material on this "other interview," so I'm not quite sure what he's talking about, but the interview is supposed to be quoted in the video he linked to in his first post of the thread.
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Rakeesh
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At this point I'm just gonna go ahead and ask for moderation openly, in public: should Ron, y'know, not back off of this - or even just quietly slink away as usual on it - is there anything that can be done? Are there provisions for posting things that are known to be false, or is the 'She could be faking it, and he could be faking it, and we can't be sure that all of these organizations aren't faking it," to be considered a defense against charges of a patter of dishonesty?

Ron's pretty transparently setting himself up for a 'we can't be sure this isn't an elaborate White House conspiracy' defense, which would be one thing (if mildly irritating and slightly loony for this particularly issue) if it hadn't be preceded by 'these are serious, legitimate issues and you guys are dim-witted sheep for not recognizing it'. While somehow actually invoking God into the bargain.

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Samprimary
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I watched the video and double-checked to make sure that all the stated claims in the video — "was present for Obama's birth [in kenya]," and so forth — are derivative from the McRae interview's parsing.
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Destineer
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So Ron is mistaken in claiming that there was another interview. Not surprising.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
Samp, Ron seems to agree that the McRae interview was faked,

Do you mean from this?

quote:
The Rabbit, if the account is accurate, then it seems that McRae was dishonest. But remember, this account is an effort by an opponent to discredit him. All such interpretations after the fact have less weight than actually watching the video and seeing and hearing for yourself what Obama's grandmother said.

Did she immediately correct herself in the video? Prove it.


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Wingracer
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quote:
MCRAE: Could I ask her about his actual birthplace? I would like to see his birthplace when I come to Kenya in December. Was she present when he was born in Kenya?


Man, talk about leading questions. Any lawyer worth a dime would have screamed "objection" before she ever had a chance to answer.
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Destineer
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I guess I was thinking of this
quote:
Stone_Wolf_, Destineer referred to the same phone conversation that MattP did. I am not trying to defend what Donald Trump has been saying lately. My contention is that the original issue during the last presidential campaign was raised by the video recording where Obama's grandmother says "Barack nate dhalani"--"Barack was born (in) this village."

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Destineer
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quote:
I watched the video and double-checked to make sure that all the stated claims in the video — "was present for Obama's birth [in kenya]," and so forth — are derivative from the McRae interview's parsing.
Could you discern any information about where the one-sentence clip in Kenyan language that Ron is harping on comes from?
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
quote:
I watched the video and double-checked to make sure that all the stated claims in the video — "was present for Obama's birth [in kenya]," and so forth — are derivative from the McRae interview's parsing.
Could you discern any information about where the one-sentence clip in Kenyan language that Ron is harping on comes from?
http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/sarah-obama-tape-obama-born-in-kenya-proof-obama-grandmother-philip-j-berg-tape-sarah-obama-present-at-obama-kenyan-birth-affadavit-tap e-transcript/

quote:
From:bishopmcrae
To:Lisa
Cc:philjberg@gmail.com
Subject:Bogus video
Date:Sat, 01 Nov 2008
07:17:55 -0700

Phil & Lisa,

I have viewed the Youtube video claiming to translate what Obama’s grandmother is saying and I believe it is bogus. The on screen script showing “nate dhalani” is not a recognized swahili phrase, and neither word is recognized as a swahlili word. I tried watching her mouth, and what is in the audio does not match anything.

For her to say “Barack was born here”, she would say “Barack zaliwa hapa”. For her to say, “he was born in this village”, she would say “zaliwa za kijiji hi”. I would put something out distancing ourselves from this video. I think it is an Obama attempt to get Phil’s name connected to a bogus translation.

Bishop McRae
Anabaptists Churches of North America

It's so bad even McRae is desperate not to associate with it, apparently.

But hey. Anything will fool someone, I guess.

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Rakeesh
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Incidentally, this is pretty close to what I expect to be Ron's eventual cop-out: "You can't PROVE this isn't some
Obama provocateur! That means it's still an issue! It's not a non-issue until it's proven to me (who views even evidence that is flatly contradictory to my initial point) that it's not a non-issue! Meanwhile, how 'bout those Weathermen!"

Y'know it occurs to me: it can't be proven that Weathermen bombings weren't staged by law enforcement for political gain. So we can't be sure that the Weathermen were really violent, can we?

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Parkour
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Because we are actually interested in seeing how far Ron Lambert's cop-outs actually go we are literally going to talk to a native speaker transfer student.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Incidentally, this is pretty close to what I expect to be Ron's eventual cop-out: "You can't PROVE this isn't some
Obama provocateur! That means it's still an issue!

Yeah, well. Who knows. This tiny, tiny microcosm of a fractional seized-upon justification, miles beneath the compelling argument to the contrary of birther conspiracy, might still hold water in and of itself. As in, she might have actually said something that you can sort of construe linguistically to be in terms of direct language composition, 'obama was born here,' and you may be unable to prove conclusively that that she had not meant it literally with no confusion on her part or bad translation.

Like, it's conceivably possible. And even though she could be utterly convinced Obama was born there the stand-alone testimony would not really make a lot of inroads on the case for him having been born in Hawaii, but I'm sure the very credulous and easily strung along birthers just desperate to hold onto the belief that this still resembles a credible controversy will go ahead and hide in whatever crannies of unprovable negatives are left to them and never, ever, ever, ever, ever be convinced no matter the evidence to the contrary.

But still, for the purposes of my own amusement, WHY NOT. Let's go ask someone who actually speaks obamuslimese.

[ April 30, 2011, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Samprimary ]

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kmbboots
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I remember very little Swahili from my days working for a travel company but I still have my Swahili dictionary from when I would go to Kenya. The word for "born" is "kuzaliwa" and "village" is "kijiji". "Nate" and "dhalani" aren't found in this dictionary. So we can rule out Swahili.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
At this point I'm just gonna go ahead and ask for moderation openly, in public: should Ron, y'know, not back off of this - or even just quietly slink away as usual on it - is there anything that can be done? Are there provisions for posting things that are known to be false, or is the 'She could be faking it, and he could be faking it, and we can't be sure that all of these organizations aren't faking it," to be considered a defense against charges of a patter of dishonesty?

Ron's pretty transparently setting himself up for a 'we can't be sure this isn't an elaborate White House conspiracy' defense, which would be one thing (if mildly irritating and slightly loony for this particularly issue) if it hadn't be preceded by 'these are serious, legitimate issues and you guys are dim-witted sheep for not recognizing it'. While somehow actually invoking God into the bargain.

But you forget Rakeesh! This forum is slipping into degenerate liberalism! Ron is really just the vanguard against the evol liberals!
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Destineer
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Thanks, Samp. I guess I was right to speculate that the video had to be a complete fake.

quote:
Yeah, well. Who knows. This tiny, tiny microcosm of a fractional seized-upon justification, miles beneath the compelling argument to the contrary of birther conspiracy, might still hold water in and of itself. As in, she might have actually said something that you can sort of construe linguistically to be in terms of direct language composition, 'obama was born here,' and you may be unable to prove conclusively that that she had not meant it literally with no confusion on her part or bad translation.
Yeah, maybe granny Obama just doesn't know grammar!
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Rakeesh
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The thing is Samprimary, it's not a matter of being credulous. At least I don't think so. If I set up a 'Jeff's Insurance Stand' on the street corner, these guys wouldn't fall for it just because I tried to sell 'em. I don't believe they are particularly credulous-this is just in most cases an unwillingness to look for the whole picture, and in Ron's case straight up dishonesty.
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Samprimary
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I don't think 'dishonesty' is the right word for describing ron's apparent state of mind in these discussions. I think he absolutely believes what he says, even when what he is saying shows painfully transparent deflection of difficult points, abnormally consistent repetition of claims over time no matter the counterpoints made, regular assertion of the universally and interchangably moral/religious/mental/logically flawed weakness of people who disagree with him, and outright and regular appropriation of God and the spiritual corruption, weakness, and devilry of people who challenge him.
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fugu13
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I think dishonesty is exactly the term. Dishonest encompasses a lot more than just lying. In particular, it includes lack of fairness and lack of adherence to the facts (note: these are all straight from the dictionary definition "lack of honesty" and the definition of honesty), and Ron has been acting in that way in spades.

He has been acting in this thread with the most shallow kind of honesty (being honest, which is about being truthful and straightforward), but in a way absolutely lacking in the rest of the concept.

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Samprimary
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quote:
I think dishonesty is exactly the term.

He has been acting in this thread with the most shallow kind of honesty (being honest, which is about being truthful and straightforward}

Okay, so he's .. being honest but because he's only being honest he's being dishonest.

.. ?

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Jon Boy
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Wikipedia to the rescue!
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fugu13
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Samp: "being honest" has been pretty much reduced in meaning in English to not telling lies, but honesty (and the negation, dishonesty) has a larger meaning (like "being honest" used to have) that encompasses things like not ignoring facts.
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Glenn Arnold
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Ron Lambert said:
quote:
Did you ever hear the Peter, Paul, and Mary Vietnam era war protest song, "Leaving on a Jet Plane"?
Yes, it's a John Denver song apologizing to his wife for leaving her at home while he goes on a concert tour, and for his sexual dalliances in the past. In the PPM version they changed the line "I'll bring your wedding ring" to "I'll wear your wedding ring," because Mary's voice was the lead, and she's clearly the one "leaving."

Had nothing to do with Vietnam.

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Rakeesh
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Samprimary, I might credit that 'believes what he says' interpretation if not for one very consistent pattern of Ron's posting style. He'll breeze through with some nonsense, such as this, and at first he'll believe it and post about it passionately, though to his credit not overtly aggressively or belligerently.

And then, eventually, as happened here, the points he brings up in support of it - and he'll be posting eagerly, coming out against all challengers - will just be killed stone-cold dead. Like what happened here with Obama's Grandmomma. In the ground, stake through its heart, both barrels emptied into its skull dead. And then, suddenly...the topic changes. Ron's passionate intensity just dries up and floats away. Gone like a fart in the wind.

It's happened before, and it'll happen again. If it were occasional I would credit that he believes what he says, but when he just stops every damn time he's had one of his props knocked down and smashed out from under him and doesn't acknowledge it, doesn't even acknowledge it happened? That's dishonesty. That's a pattern of dishonesty. And now that we've got actual, active moderation around here I personally think it'd be nice if we didn't have to deal with that anymore, and I wonder if that's the kind of decision that can be reached within the rules.

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