quote:Mr. Camping says he felt so terrible when his doomsday prediction did not come true on Saturday that he left home and took refuge in a motel with his wife.
Sounds like he got some pity sex.
Man, that excuse has never worked for me...
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I'm really disappointed that the rapture didn't happen. Maybe somebody could clarify the scripture for me: after the rapture, is there any chance of being saved? It never really made much sense to me that everybody wouldn't be saved, because, seriously, would anybody not immediately become a Christian if the rapture happened?
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JonHecht, from what I gather from the Left Behind novels by LeHaye and Jenkins, those who are converted after the rapture are called "Tribulation saints."
I think this is a dangerous teaching, because it gives people the idea that they can keep on refusing to repent, keep on grieving the Holy Spirit away by their stubborn hard-heartedness, and yet still look forward to getting a second chance. There is no second chance. When the last offer of grace has been given, and people have made their final decision against God, hardening themselves in impenitence, then their fate is sealed when Jesus closes His Mediatorial work for us and proclaims: "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." (Revelation 22:11, 12; NKJV).
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Well it certainly sounds like the act of a loving god, a world in which one is denied for eternity God's grace by the actions within a mortal span. And not at all like a means of coercion, using the threat of time's runnin' out and once it's out you're doomed, so act now...or else.
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Actually, if you read Revalations, it says that after the Rapture the Anti-Christ will be here, saying that he is really God and that the people should follow him, which they will do. Only a small resistance will refuse him and know that he isn't God. Those people will be killed by the Anti-Christ and his armies, but they will be saved.
A lot of people will follow the anti-christ because they don't know their bible, so they will believe whatever the guy says, supposedly. That's what the bible says anyway.
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quote:I think this is a dangerous teaching, because it gives people the idea that they can keep on refusing to repent, keep on grieving the Holy Spirit away by their stubborn hard-heartedness, and yet still look forward to getting a second chance. There is no second chance.
Yeah, of course, because Jesus was all about 'no second chances'. Real tough guy, never forgave anyone's sins or accepted their penance. That's totally the basis of the Christian faith.
Look at the parable of the prodigal son. No second chances there.
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seriously think about this: the origins of that entire denomination comes from a completely and totally wrong guess at the time of the coming of Christ.
quote:Despite the urging of his supporters, Miller never personally set an exact date for the expected Second Advent. However, in response to their urgings he did narrow the time-period to sometime in the year 1843, stating: “My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take possession of the same, with all the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844”[19] March 21, 1844 passed without incident, and the majority of Millerites maintained their faith. On March 25, Miller wrote to Himes, “I am still looking for the Dear Savior…. The time, as I have calculated it, is now filled up; and I expect every moment to see the Savior descend from heaven. I have now nothing to look for but this glorious hope.”[20] As George R. Knight states, the movement’s survival was a result of the fact that, “the Millerite leaders had been ‘soft’ on the time…. They allowed for the possibility of small errors in their calculations and even in some of their historic dates.”[21] In fact, on February 28, Miller himself had written, “If Christ comes, as we expect, we will sing the song of victory soon; if not, we will watch, and pray, and preach until he comes, for soon our time, and all prophetic days, will have been filled.”[22] Further discussion and study resulted in the brief adoption of a new date—April 18, 1844, one based on the Karaite Jewish calendar (as opposed to the Rabbinic calendar).[23] Like the previous date, April 18 passed without Christ’s return. More study led the Millerites to believe that they had entered the “tarrying time”—a time of waiting after which Christ would finally return—spoken of in Matthew 25:5 and Habakkuk 3:2-3. This belief sustained the Millerites through the months of May to July, 1844. As Knight notes however, this period represented a “flatness in Millerite evangelism,” when even the Millerite preachers must have experienced diminished certainty.[24]
quote:In August 1844 at a camp-meeting in Exeter, New Hampshire, everything changed when Samuel S. Snow presented a message of earth-shattering proportions—what became known as the “seventh-month” message or the “true midnight cry.”[25] In a complex discussion based on scriptural typology, Snow presented his conclusion (still based on the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel 8:14), that Christ would return on, “the tenth day of the seventh month of the present year, 1844.”[26] Again using the calendar of the Karaite Jews, this date was determined to be October 22, 1844. This “seventh month message” “spread with a rapidity unparalleled in the Millerite experience” amongst the general population. The situation caught many of the established leaders—including Himes and Miller himself, by surprise. Knight reports that, “There is no evidence that any of the foremost Millerite preachers accepted this grass-roots development until late September. Most did not accept it until early October.”[27]
October 22, 1844, that day of great hope and promise, ended like any other day to the disappointment of the Millerites. Both Millerite leaders and followers were left generally bewildered and disillusioned. Responses varied: some Millerites continued to look daily for Christ’s return, others predicted different dates—among them April, July, and October 1845. Some theorized that the world had entered the seventh millennium, the “Great Sabbath”, and that, therefore, the saved should not work. Others acted as children, basing their belief on Jesus’ words in Mark 10:15, “Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” O. J. D. Pickands used Revelation 14:14-16 to teach that Christ was now sitting on a white cloud, and must be prayed down. Probably the majority however, simply gave up their beliefs and attempted to rebuild their lives.[28] Some members rejoined their previous denominations while a substantial number became Quakers.[29]
posted
I don't know if anyone else noticed, but according to wikipedia, Camping has predicted a failed rapture 3 times now.
-1988 -1994 -2011
Three strikes and you're out Camping.
To make matters worse, Camping has predicted yet ANOTHER end date, this time in October:
quote:On May 23, 2011 in an appearance before the press, Camping stated he has reinterpreted his prophecy. In his revised claim, May 21 was a "spiritual" judgment day, and the world will still come to an end October 21, 2011.[39][40] Camping said his company would not return money donated by followers to publicize the failed May 21 prediction. "We’re not at the end. Why would we return it?"
That's from Wikipedia.
I can't wait for Oct. 22nd...
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Oh, I also meant to say that Camping's book says the world is only 11 thousand years old. If you need further proof that he is an idiot, read about that. His rationalizations aren't based on any real science, and the research he does to find the dates is extremely sketchy.
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that's ludicrous. Everyone knows that the actual age of the earth is closer to 6 thousand years old.
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The world has been saying that it's 39 for several million years now. It's time - past time, really - for it to get over it and accept it's age. It's not fooling anyone.
And even Jupiter has put a ring on Saturn by now. Yeah, since then, they've kind of given up, moved across the Van Allen belt to the suburbs, and both have grown bloated and gassy now, but they're happy. That's all we want for Earth...except for the people who want it to be engulfed in a ball of fire while they sit up in the balcony, laughing and eating Jesus-brand popcorn.
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I feel like I should mention that most Christians don't actually believe in the Rapture. It doesn't really have any scriptural support and has only been around as a teaching since the late 1700s/early 1800s.
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quote:I think this is a dangerous teaching, because it gives people the idea that they can keep on refusing to repent, keep on grieving the Holy Spirit away by their stubborn hard-heartedness, and yet still look forward to getting a second chance. There is no second chance.
Yeah, of course, because Jesus was all about 'no second chances'. Real tough guy, never forgave anyone's sins or accepted their penance. That's totally the basis of the Christian faith.
Look at the parable of the prodigal son. No second chances there.
Exactly right, Bella Bee. The love of God trumps everything.
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I don't know about that, MrSquicky. I think the majority do accept it as biblical fact, but they just choose to believe it will not happen in their lifetime. The catholic church, for example, accepts it as truth, and so do most protestant sects.
However, the majority of christians do not support this one preacher's claims about the exact time for the end of the world. As it states throughout the new testament (three times that I know of), no one knows when it will happen.
Personally, I think Christians should ignore the idea of the rapture, but that's just me. The focus of their teachings should be to spread love and faith rather than fear, which is what this guy is doing. I mean, he took all those people's money and a woman tried to kill her two kids because of the whole thing. Talk about rediculous.
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Yet from all I hear from the Evangelical folks who make the most press, if you don't believe in the rapture, you are ChINOs (Christian In Name Only).
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Jeff, The Catholic Church does not accept the Rapture as truth, but I think what I wrote might be a little confusing.
The Rapture is the specific belief that Jesus will have two second comings, the first of which is the Rapture where the right sort of people get lifted up to Heaven with him. As I said, there's no scriptural support for this.
The Catholic Church does believe in the second coming of Jesus that heralds the end of the world. Whether Revelation is meant literally as what will happen at the end of the world is a matter of debate, though most are against this interpretation.
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quote:Originally posted by Jake: I'm pretty sure the world is 39.
That's not quite right to me. I have no recollection of the world past 21 years ago. If the world existed, why can't I remember it, huh? Chump.
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quote:If we look too eagerly for Jesus’ return on the clouds of heaven, we may pass him by too often on the street (Mt 25:31-46). It would seem that what gets left behind most in the “Left Behind” mentality is the whole Bible.
quote:Originally posted by Jeff C.: I don't know if anyone else noticed, but according to wikipedia, Camping has predicted a failed rapture 3 times now.
-1988 -1994 -2011
Three strikes and you're out Camping.
Not if God drops the third strike.
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Just a personal anecdote, worth little except for the sweet and precious confusion I remember feeling:
I was raised as a Catholic, and never heard anything about the Rapture in catechism classes. But one day when I was 8 or 9, I was staying at the house of some born-again relatives, including the wife of a mean adult cousin whom I loathed. She was a sweet lady, and a semi-pro gospel singer (I remember how impressed I was by seeing her record albums with her face on them). She explained The Rapture to me, and her explanation involved jet planes taking people to heaven. Even at that tender age the detail that God, All Powerful, Etc., was going to use jet planes struck me as fishy.
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MrSquicky, I see what you mean. Much better wording on that last post.
I assumed you were talking about Jesus' return in general because that's where my mind goes when I think of the Rapture. Easy mistake, I suppose. Now you've got me interested in the history of the Rapture in the church. I feel the need to investigate.
To the Jesus-mobile!
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Bella, and some others, you misunderstand the "no second chance" idea. Of course people get plenty of chances in this life. Jesus came to give us a second chance. But people do gradually harden their hearts after repeatedly rejecting God's grace. It is possible to reject God so many times, that you are no longer able to repent, no longer able to respond to the grace of God offered by the Holy Spirit. You have grieved away the Holy Spirit to the point where He cannot reach you any more. The Apostle Paul speaks of people "whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron." (1 Timothy 4:2; NIV) Such people have joined with Satan and his fellow fallen angels. They were offered grace and forgiveness and second chances in Heaven, but they went so far by entering into open warfare against the Son of God and His angels that they are now beyond being able to repent.
Christ will not come until everyone on earth has made his or her absolutely final choice for or against God. After this point, there is no longer any reason to give altar calls. It is at this point that final probation for the human race closes. When Jesus puts on His kingly attire to return to earth, He must first take off His mediatorial clothes, and cease interceding for sinners as our High Priest.
Samprimary, you have done some historical homework. Most of the Millerites did not become Seventh-day Adventists. Those few who did, concluded that the time prophecies of Daniel 8 and 9 (especially Daniel 8:14) were correctly calculated, but they misunderstood the event that was to take place.
Daniel 8:14 says: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." The Millerites jumped to the conclusion that the sanctuary meant the earth, which would be cleansed by the fires associated with the coming of Christ.
However, in this they failed the first principle of sound interpretation of Bible prophecy. They did not allow the Bible to define all the symbols. The "cleansing of the sanctuary" is a clear reference to the Day of Atonement service that came once a year in the sacred services of ancient Israel, which were given by God as enacted types of various aspects and phases of the Plan of Salvation. Just as the sacrifical lambs offered daily represented Christ, the Day of Atonement on the tenth day of the seventh month was the final Day of Judgment for all of Israel. In it, God's method of making a final end of sin and cleansing the people for all time and eternity was presented.
The handful of former Millerites who went on to become Seventh-day Adventists recognized that a proper Biblical definition of the symbols involved indicated that the Day of Judgment began in Heaven in 1844, and has been progressing ever since, waiting for the presently living generation to be brought to the point of making its final decision for or against God, so they can be brought into judgment too. Only when this work is completed will Jesus be able to return.
This is why Seventh-day Adventists today see their divine mandate in the three angels' messages of Revelation 14, which begin with the first angel's message, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment IS come." (Rev. 14:7) Notice, they do not say His Judgment will come. They proclaim to all the world that the hour of God's Judgment has already begun.
Notice that Jesus said in Revelation 22:12 that when He comes "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Notice that in order for Jesus to already have rewards to give to every man according as his work shall be, the Judgment must already have taken place before His return.
Sam, in your historical homework, you perhaps failed to look into the real mystery: Why all the mainline churches kicked out from their memberships everyone who proclaimed the soon coming Second Coming of the Lord, when this has always supposedly been "the Blessed Hope" of the church.
[ May 24, 2011, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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Why, if the Day of Judgment began in 1844, didn't God wait for the presently living generation(s) of that time to die off? Why let another eight generations pass?
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Kind of tempted to jump in here, but after the whole Barack nate dhalani thing I don't see much point trying to engage with Ron.
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quote:Why all the mainline churches kicked out from their memberships everyone who proclaimed the soon coming Second Coming of the Lord, when this has always supposedly been "the Blessed Hope" of the church.
What a bizarre question. You're asking why the churches didn't agree with people who were making what we know were obviously false predictions?
There are times when it is difficult to look back at history and really pick out who was right and who was wrong, the winners from the losers. This is not one of those times.
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Camper is explaining his mistake away as the May date was a Spiritual Due Date--last chance to get redeemed before the actual Rapture. The real end of the world is October 21st.
So I think he's doing the baseball idea of "Two Strikes, but this last one was a tip foul."
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MrSquickt, they were not obviously false prior to 1844. The Advent Movement lasted about 30 years. Hundreds of thousands of people all around the world, when they saw how the time prophecies of Daniel 8 and 9 worked out logically, were convinced that something important had to happen in 1844. The bizarreness is why Christian churches that supposedly believed in the Second Coming of Christ as the "Blessed Hope" of the church, would cast out of their membership people who believed it was really about to take place.
Tom, in order for those presently living to enter into the Judgment, all those living on earth must be brought to the point of making their final decision for or against God. This is the purpose that will be served by the "Time of Trouble," or "Final Conflict."
There is a word used about 19 times in the Old Testament, bakon that means investigative judgment. It conveys the idea that God from Heaven judges what people do on earth, when they are tested by some kind of trial. Here is an example: "The Lord is in His holy temple, The Lord's throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men." (Psalms 11:4; NKJV) The word here translated as "test" is bakon.
The same concept is set forth even more explicitly in Jesus' letter to the church of Philadelphia, where Jesus said: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Revelation 3:10; NKJV)
Darth, the proper term is "foul tip." Which is still a strike, if the catcher holds on to it. I notice you called him "Camper." Do you mean to imply that Camping is not a happy camper?
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quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: Camper is explaining his mistake away as the May date was a Spiritual Due Date--last chance to get redeemed before the actual Rapture. The real end of the world is October 21st.
So I think he's doing the baseball idea of "Two Strikes, but this last one was a tip foul."
So regardless of whether we're getting in or not, we can do whatever we want for the next five months? Woohoo!!!
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: ... Those few who did, concluded that the time prophecies of Daniel 8 and 9 (especially Daniel 8:14) were correctly calculated, but they misunderstood the event that was to take place.
Thank goodness people today are too smart to fall for this one again.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: The bizarreness is why Christian churches that supposedly believed in the Second Coming of Christ as the "Blessed Hope" of the church, would cast out of their membership people who believed it was really about to take place.
Because what they believed about it and how they claimed to come by this knowledge was contrary to what those churches believed about scripture and revelation.
Which is pretty obvious, if you were actually looking for an answer rather than a rhetorical question.
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But dkw, nothing was contrary to what the churches believed about Scripture and Revelation. To be a Christian was (and still is) to believe in the Second Coming of Christ. The only difference was that the Millerites were saying it was really coming soon, not in some far off future thousands of years from now.
Mucus, those same time prophecies pointed to the time when Christ would appear on earth to be annointed and begin His ministry, and then three and one half years later would offer the True Sacrifice of which all the sacrifices of the Old Testament sanctuary were but types.
This was important to the apostles and all the disciples of Jesus. Paul wrote: "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4; NKJV)
This is also how Jesus began His preaching, as Mark records: "Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.'" (Mark 1:14, 15; NKJV)
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The belief that it is possible to pull verses together to predict a date that Jesus will return is against the teaching of most churches about how the Bible is to be read and interpreted. It is "contrary to what the churches believed about Scripture and Revelation" then and now.
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quote:MrSquickt, they were not obviously false prior to 1844. The Advent Movement lasted about 30 years. Hundreds of thousands of people all around the world, when they saw how the time prophecies of Daniel 8 and 9 worked out logically, were convinced that something important had to happen in 1844. The bizarreness is why Christian churches that supposedly believed in the Second Coming of Christ as the "Blessed Hope" of the church, would cast out of their membership people who believed it was really about to take place.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people from that time would quibble with your "They didn't know it was obviously wrong then." I figure it's a lot like saying that we didn't know that Camping's predictions were ridiculous. But that's really beside the point.
We know now that it was all nonsense. Trying to cast the people who said then it was nonsense as some sort of villains is kind of crazy. I mean, dude, scoreboard.
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quote:Tom, in order for those presently living to enter into the Judgment, all those living on earth must be brought to the point of making their final decision for or against God. This is the purpose that will be served by the "Time of Trouble," or "Final Conflict."
If I'm understanding this, the only reason you and I ever got a chance to be born is due directly to the continued existence of agnostics. Thank God for agnostics.
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The LDS faith believes in something like the Rapture I suppose. The Church calls it the First Ressurection. People aren't just plucked up, but those that are dead and worthy will be resurrected first, followed by everyone else. Christ will reign for 1,000 years on the earth, and during that time Satan will be bound. There will still be mortal beings on the Earth during that time and they will have children, however upon death people will be resurrected immediately. After 1,000 years Satan will be released for a short time to tempt those that had not been tempted before (those born during that 1,000 year period) after which the Earth will be translated and Satan will be banished from the world forever.
Or something like that. I probably have some of it wrong. Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Darth, the proper term is "foul tip." Which is still a strike, if the catcher holds on to it.
And technically, it's only a foul tip if the catcher receives the ball before it hits the ground. What happened on May 21 was clearly God fouling it into the stands on a 3-2 count. Come October 21, he'll either clear the bleachers or strike out swinging.
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk: And technically, it's only a foul tip if the catcher receives the ball before it hits the ground. What happened on May 21 was clearly God fouling it into the stands on a 3-2 count. Come October 21, he'll either clear the bleachers or strike out swinging.
posted
My favorite webcomic take on Rapture: 2011 is Overcompensating's. There are four strips in the series. If swearing or less-than-reverent approaches to Yahweh and Jesus upset you, you'd probably be well advised to avoid clicking on the link.
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quote:Tom, in order for those presently living to enter into the Judgment, all those living on earth must be brought to the point of making their final decision for or against God. This is the purpose that will be served by the "Time of Trouble," or "Final Conflict."
If I'm understanding this, the only reason you and I ever got a chance to be born is due directly to the continued existence of agnostics. Thank God for agnostics.
Or babies.
Whee! the apocalypse is never coming now!
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posted
Tom, there is another way to look at this. The continued existence of misery and suffering, disease and death in this world, is the fault of those who delay the time when Jesus can come again. God never meant for there to be death at all. Every death is unnecessary. Moreover, the Holocaust suffered by the Jews in Nazi Europe happened because wicked people delayed the Second Coming of Christ. The killing fields of Cambodia, the many attempts at "Ethnic Cleansing" that have taken place in the world, the millions who died of the bubonic plague, the massive natural disasters that swept away thousands, the wars that swept away millions--all this need not have happened had not the Second Coming of Christ been delayed. There never should have been slavery in America, nor should there have been any need for the horrible bloodbath of the Civil War that ended slavery. There never should have been accidents by air, land, or sea. Of course, this indicts not only evil-doers and agnostics; it also indicts those who would claim to be faithful worshipers of God, because their failure to perform the duty God has given them to do in the world to be faithful witnesses of His goodness and reach everyone with the gospel and allow everyone to make their final decision for or against God, also delays Christ's coming. Christ does not want to come until His professed followers are ready, and until everyone has had a fair chance to be saved. As the Apostle Peter testified, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9; NKJV)
God will not wait forever, however. He must weigh the continued existence of evil itself with all its consequences of suffering and death, with His desire to give people as much time as possible to repent and turn back to Him. There will come a time when God will begin to withdraw all His still remaining restraining influence against evil, and the resultant progression of events will lead to a final, open warfare between those who side with evil, and those who side with God. Boycotts will be threatened against all those who refuse to compromise with the prevailing false religion of creature-worship, and eventually the death decree will be issued against all who remain faithful to the Creator and refuse to obey laws that contradict His laws. In the midst of this final conflict, every soul everywhere on earth will be forced to reach the point of making a final decision for or against God. Then human probation closes. Then Christ will return.
[ May 26, 2011, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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Ron: You explanation does not make sense to me in light of the fact that God knows what everyone is going to do before it is done. God knowing the future most certainly has a plan set in stone, and all of our actions while not necessarily adjusted for, were certainly on his mind when God executed it.
God can't be surprised by an outcome or never intend something in the sense he didn't see it coming. He might want something else to have happened but be required to allow us to act as agents to ourselves.
Saying God has to push the date back because of stuff we are doing is to say that God is held captive by what we do, and that we exert control over God as a species. By that logic if any man or woman was convinced that they did not like the world God was offering, they would be obligated to fight against God's objectives as revealed in Christianity so as to keep that reality from happening.
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