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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Book of Mormon (Page 10)

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Author Topic: Book of Mormon
Stone_Wolf_
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I was going to write a point by point argument to your last post, but I decided against it.

I'll just sum up what I had to say in a single sentence: We disagree on a lot.

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Black Fox
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Totally, and I'm cool with that, because I still respect you : )
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Samprimary
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I'm going to skip all the back and forth here and use my favorite Extreme Example: the scientologists!

I don't have to respect scientology in order to respect someone who is a scientologist. Anybody who says that I categorically have to in order to meet their definition of 'respect' is not using a definition or a standard that I'm even really going to pay attention to.

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Black Fox
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Which is fine, but they'll still feel disrespected. If you are fine with that it's fine. You will have met your own standard for decorum and be on your merry way.
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Raymond Arnold
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Say I care about someone a lot, I believe the things they do, I'm kind to them. I happen to be unfamiliar with some particular custom of theirs, and accidentally say something on par with the n-word and they are extremely offended, have I been disrespectful?

If apologize and attempt to make amends and they still are offended. Have I been disrespectful?

(You can substitute the "on par with the n-word" issue with "the person in question is just really easily offended")

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Black Fox
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As an aggregate, you probably haven't been disrespectful. However, that all depends on the recipient. I think most even keeled individuals will accept your apologies and not feel disrespected, but maybe not. I think we've all had odd social situations with people that went in a crazy direction.

Also, just because you did disrespect them does not make you a disrespectful person, Unless you believe in some kind of purity in composition.

I think where people have a problem with this is that they don't feel like they are disrespectful just because someone is overly sensitive. That is, they see being disrespectful as just naturally being something bad and don't feel like being "bad" due to someone's perceived faults.

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MattP
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quote:
I think where people have a problem with this is that they don't feel like they are disrespectful just because someone is overly sensitive.
I think we also have a problem of definitions. You are claiming an authoritative definition for respect that is not universally recognized. For many people, at least a component of respect - if not the entirety - is intent. Dictionary definitions seem to lean in this direction.

Imagine attempting to shake hands with your "unclean" hand in one of the many cultures who makes such a distinction. The person you offered your hand to looks at you in horror and makes a contemptuous reply. Did you disrespect them? Suppose that someone then explains that your gesture was made in ignorance and the offended party responds by offering you a smile and a gentle pat in the shoulder (with the clean hand, of course). Was your original act still disrespectful? The injured party no longer believes so. Can you retroactively alter the respectfulness of past actions?

[ August 03, 2011, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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Amanecer
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I think intent absolutely matters. If you're dealing with somebody who doesn't get sarcasm and then sarcastically compliment them, they might perceive you as being respect. I do not think by any reasonable definition you have been respectful.

I also think that trying to be aware of what another perceives as respectful behavior and modifying behavior to match that is an aspect of respect. Black Fox has claimed that "living up to society's standards of respecting someone does not mean you've been respectful" and I think that's off. Respect is all about learning the standards of whatever society or sub-society you're dealing with and adapting to those norms.

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Threads
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quote:
Originally posted by Black Fox:
If they feel disrespected then you have disrespected them.

I think you are just arguing definitions at this point (which is unproductive). Under your definition, if I am talking to someone and they get to decide whether or not I am being disrespectful then being disrespectful is no longer an immediately bad thing. Once we allow individuals to define what is disrespectful (or offensive), we provide an incentive for people to abuse their supposed feelings of disrespect or offense to censor others. I think that if someone feels disrespected merely because I disagree with them then I have done nothing wrong even if, under your definition, I have been disrespectful. If that's the case then nobody can complain about being disrespected because being disrespectful isn't enough to have done something wrong.
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Samprimary
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quote:
If that's the case then nobody can complain about being disrespected because being disrespectful isn't enough to have done something wrong.
That's really true, and fantastically worded. Whether or not I am truly a disrespectful person becomes an element at the mercy of my environment moreso than anything that has to do with my level of decorum.

Let's face it — in life, you are going to meet many brittle, snippy, easily offended people. Them having a reactionary snit-fit does not get to be measure by which I can be determined to have been a respectful or disrespectful person.

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Aerin
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You'll meet some. Maybe one a year.

If you meet a LOT, though, if you are continually amazed at how many over-sensitive people you find, if you can't believe just how unbelievably brittle and easily offended the world has gotten, if you start think every member of a certain group is crazy snippy and has a problem, then it isn't them: it's you.

If it is more than, say, one person a year, then "other people" are not the problem. So if two or more people are telling you at the same time you're being disrespectful, it takes...serious contempt and disrespect to imagine they are all wrong and only you know the truth.

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TomDavidson
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I would put the threshold for that self-evaluation considerably higher than two a year unless one's a hermit, Katie, but I otherwise agree. Would you apply the same logic to blanket condemnations of, say, people on a given thread? That if you perceive more than two people acting badly (or accusing you of acting badly), it's actually your problem and not theirs?

[ August 04, 2011, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Raymond Arnold
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How many people here are named Katie?

For the most part agree with what others are saying to BlackFox. However, I think that "are other people feeling disrespected" is a benchmark you should consider when deciding how best to be respectful.

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Aerin
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Tom, your opinion is worth less than nothing to me. I don't respect what you think or say at all, based on my long experience with you and your behavior.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
How many people here are named Katie?

Katharina (or Aerin) is the only person who regularly gets referred to as Katie by anybody. Kate Boots could be called Katie, I suppose, but it's nothing that anyone here has a habit of doing.

Kat, out of curiosity, what is the significance of the Aerin screenname?

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Aerin
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Just a whim. [Smile] I'm not trying to hide at all. I'm still me.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Tom, your opinion is worth less than nothing to me. I don't respect what you think or say at all, based on my long experience with you and your behavior.
That's fair enough. As I do respect what you think and say, however, I'm still curious: do you believe the "if more than one person thinks you're behaving badly, you probably are" applies to forums as well?
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
Kate Boots could be called Katie, I suppose, but it's nothing that anyone here has a habit of doing.

I am, in fact, called Katie by people who have known me a long time and/or are Irish.
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Aerin
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Tom, part of the reason I don't respect you is because you lie. For all the protests of respect, your actions say otherwise. I believe those more.

So: no conversation. Find someone else to smarm on.

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
Kate Boots could be called Katie, I suppose, but it's nothing that anyone here has a habit of doing.

I am, in fact, called Katie by people who have known me a long time and/or are Irish.
By anyone here, though?
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kmbboots
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Nope. But you could if you wanted to. Especially if you can fake an Irish accent.
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shadowland
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Regarding the perception of respect...

If you know that the other person is not intending to be disrespectful to you, then I don't know why you would ever need to feel disrespected. That you might still feel disrespected is perhaps understandable, but it is in no way necessary.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
part of the reason I don't respect you is because you lie
You are, of course, free to be as wrong as you'd like. Nor do you need any particular reason to disrespect anyone. It is, I assure you, unnecessary for you to convince me that you are confident in your justifications for the rightness of your condemnations; this is something that has always been clear.

However, if you're going to ignore perfectly good questions because you don't respect me enough to answer them, simply don't answer them; leaving aside whether it costs me anything to spit into the wind -- because I understand that it is important to you to say that you do not care -- you waste your own time pretending to converse, otherwise, and that seems like a loss.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Wait, so katharina = Aerin? That explains so much.

Maybe she'll answer me...

kat/Aerin: Does your principal of "If multiple people are feeling disrespected by you, then it's likely you" apply to the 'Rack?

And I'm curious, what did Tom lie about?

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MattP
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Stone_Wolf_,

You are unlikely to get an answer to either question. She tends to disconnect when directly confronted on contentious issues.

Not a value judgement, just an observation.

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Black Fox
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
I think intent absolutely matters. If you're dealing with somebody who doesn't get sarcasm and then sarcastically compliment them, they might perceive you as being respect. I do not think by any reasonable definition you have been respectful.

I also think that trying to be aware of what another perceives as respectful behavior and modifying behavior to match that is an aspect of respect. Black Fox has claimed that "living up to society's standards of respecting someone does not mean you've been respectful" and I think that's off. Respect is all about learning the standards of whatever society or sub-society you're dealing with and adapting to those norms.

That certainly works most of the time. The problem is that we often perceive our society or sub-society as being much larger than it really is. We often talk about being "Americans" as if that is an all encompassing social paradigm that applies to all American citizens. The reality is more complex than that as different regions have different norms and even within regions you have various social norms when it comes to certain groups within that region. Due to that when we meet strangers we cannot just off the cuff say that our norms are their norms.

Interestingly enough I was talking about this issue of respect with a good friend of mine last night and for the most part he came down on the side opposite of mine. What I tried to argue with him, and I suppose I have here as well, is that it is a two way street. Yes, the receiver of behavior gets to decide if they feel respected or disrespected, but so do you. Also, I believe that if someone knows that you don't mean disrespect they may very well not feel disrespected. Of course that depends on them being able to read your intent as respectful, so in that sense you have to hope that the other party is reasonable. They may very well know that you mean well, but still come across as mildly offended got no other reason than it is a gut reaction.

To put it bluntly, perception is king. More often than not it is not what we do or what we are trying to do, but how others perceive it to be.

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Aerin
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The principal is out to lunch with the teachers...

1. Whatever. [Roll Eyes] I know what you're getting at.

2. None of your business. What an intensely personal question. Who do you think you are?

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Stone_Wolf_
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Welp, I wasn't holding my breath. The first seems like just a decent question. The second a matter of fairness: she accuses Tom of lying a lot, but not so he can answer/explain/apologize.

Out of curiosity, does anyone agree with Black Fox's contention that factually respect/disrespect is independent of the intent of the speaker and solely determined by the receiver?

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
1. Whatever. [Roll Eyes] I know what you're getting at.

I was asking your opinion. If I was "getting at" something, I would have simply said so.

quote:
2. None of your business.
Fine.

quote:
What an intensely personal question.
Not really, "What size/color/cut are your underwear?" is a intensely personal question.

quote:
Who do you think you are?
I'm Batman.
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Amanecer
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quote:
Due to that when we meet strangers we cannot just off the cuff say that our norms are their norms.
Who is making this argument?
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Black Fox
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Welp, I wasn't holding my breath. The first seems like just a decent question. The second a matter of fairness: she accuses Tom of lying a lot, but not so he can answer/explain/apologize.

Out of curiosity, does anyone agree with Black Fox's contention that factually respect/disrespect is independent of the intent of the speaker and solely determined by the receiver?

Think of it like this. Can you make someone else feel respected at the time of an event, or is that a feeling that has to come from them. Honestly, I think it is pretty straight forward. We just don't like to think of our actions in some sense being out of our control.

I like to think of the performative through the analogy of a play. A play performed before an audience of zero cannot be a good play or a bad play. There is no applause; there is no audience in which to generate a feeling. However, once an audience is present a play can actually perform, but the actors do not have control over the audience insofar as all that they can attempt to do is perform to the best of their ability. One audience might think the actors boring and the dialogue dry, while another audience falls in love with the same performance. In this sense the actors opinion on if the performance was good or if the play is excellent has absolutely no bearing on how the audience reacts. Unfortunately, sometimes we just end up with a poor audience.

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shadowland
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I don't know that it is accurate to compare the feeling of being respected to a matter of personal preference or taste. I mean, you do have the ability to choose whether you want to feel disrespected or not.
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Black Fox
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I would disagree. It is a kind of reaction like any other. You might choose to swallow your gut feeling or not act upon it, but that does not change the fact that you felt it. Unless you actually believe that every emotional decision that you make is dictated by your rational free will.
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shadowland
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Sure, you may not be able to control your initial reaction, but you can control how you perceive it afterwards.

Isn't saying "I feel disrespected" just another way of saying, "I feel he was disrespecting me?" Cannot that opinion change over time?

To put it another way, I think someone could accurately make the statement, "I felt disrespected at first, but I realize now that no disrespect was intended, so I no longer feel disrespected."

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Mucus
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Wait, why is the topic of what TomDavidson may or may not have lied about, an "intensely personal question" for Kate? (Or does the numbering of 1 and 2 mean something else)
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Aerin
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quote:
"I felt disrespected at first, but I realize now that no disrespect was intended, so I no longer feel disrespected."
In order for this to happen, I think it needs more than "I didn't mean it badly. Your feeling disrespected is your problem; it's probably related to how stupid you must be in order to be a theist. I didn't mean that badly either."
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Black Fox
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quote:
Originally posted by shadowland:
Sure, you may not be able to control your initial reaction, but you can control how you perceive it afterwards.

Isn't saying "I feel disrespected" just another way of saying, "I feel he was disrespecting me?" Cannot that opinion change over time?

To put it another way, I think someone could accurately make the statement, "I felt disrespected at first, but I realize now that no disrespect was intended, so I no longer feel disrespected."

Sure that can happen, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to change your mind about the matter. It also doesn't change the fact that at one point you felt disrespected. Again, in the end perception rules. I'm not saying your perception can't change or even that it probably won't change; I am simply making the observation that in the end it is the other person's perception of the events that matters in their feeling disrespected or not. Sure your intent may influence their perception later on, but it also may not.
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Stone_Wolf_
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BF (Forever?) I think you are confusing opinion and fact.

Take your play. The play can be factually good even with no audience. Just as a tree will make noise even if there is no one there to hear it. That someone feels disrespected doesn't mean they factually were. Someone could love a bad play or hate a good play, an individual's opinion doesn't change the facts (is the play well written, well acted, with good production values, etc)...then perhaps you ask, who then makes that determination which changes it from individual opinion to empirical fact? First off is the conclusion reasonable? Would the majority of people agree with it? Is it logical, does it make sense?

People's opinions should be taken into consideration, but reasonableness ranks higher in my book, and when it comes to people interacting, intent also needs to be given it's fair share of weight.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Wait, why is the topic of what TomDavidson may or may not have lied about, an "intensely personal question" for Kate? (Or does the numbering of 1 and 2 mean something else)

I am actually delighted to answer intensely personal questions. And think that Tom is scrupulously honest.
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Mucus
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Oops, I meant Katie/Katharina, not Kate. Sorry.
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MattP
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BF,

I think you're still trying to wage a definition war here without solid footing in the technical definition or conventional use of the word. There have been times when I've felt offense at another's action and would have said that the action was disrespecting me only to later have the motivations of that action clarified. I no longer consider those events acts of disrespect. I was not disrespected; I merely misunderstood the motivations behind those actions.

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kmbboots
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So...no personal questions then? None at all?

[Frown]

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Aerin
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Oh, I'm also Kate. That's my email address and what about 30% of people I know in my city call me. I recognize all nicknames of Katharine except for Kathy. Don't like the name Kathy at all. That one is clearly not me.
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Mucus
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kmbboots: Maybe in a different thread [Smile]

(And maybe once I figure out what intensely personal questions you haven't already answered)

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kmbboots
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[Wink]
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Stone_Wolf_
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Apologies boots...I'm too literal by far.
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kmbboots
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What are you apologizing for?
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Stone_Wolf_
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There was briefly a new thread...it was a bad joke and is no longer around...if you missed it, better for everyone!
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kmbboots
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Awwww...
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TomDavidson
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To be fair, I think BF is correct once you appreciate the nuance of what he's saying.
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