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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Yay yay pepper spray! (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Yay yay pepper spray!
Stone_Wolf_
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Juxtapose...I fully understand that random violent crime is rare, that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for it.

quote:
You're far better off, I think, learning to plan ahead, be aware of your surroundings, read a situation, deescalate tension, and pick good companions.
These things are good suggestions, but in no way shape or form are they mutually exclusive with not carrying pepper spray.

And in every single scenario (other then putting down your keys) you would be better off with pepper spray, then with out it.

Very rare doesn't mean it won't happen to you. Spend the 8 bucks, get the insurance policy.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes:
Did something happen to you?

I've advocated carrying pepper spray before this, but one of my loved ones was raped by multiple strangers.

Had she had some, she would have likely gotten away.

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Juxtapose
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I'm sorry for your loved one SW. That's awful.
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Stone_Wolf_
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She fought, and no doubt pissed them off royally. She simply didn't do enough damage unarmed to make a difference.

They ambushed her in a woman's bathroom, all she would have had to do was make it out the door and she would have been home free.

If people here won't listen for themselves, listen for your daughters, for your mothers, wives and girlfriends. Just because it's rare, doesn't mean it can't happen to you.

$8.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Your original message didn't offend me...just fyi Juxt.
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Juxtapose
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My apologies, SW. It was pretty poor form of me to use you loved one's experience as a discussion point. I thought better of it after posting, but it seems I didn't delete it quick enough.

EDIT - glad to hear it.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I appreciate your sentiment, but it was I who introduced it into the discussion, and if I was unwilling to have it discussed I wouldn't have done so.

Although I cried a bit reading over the post for errors.

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dkw
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Even if I owned pepper spray, the chance of having it easily accessible in a restroom is pretty much nil. Remember that a lot of women's clothing doesn't have pockets, which means it would be carried in a purse. Walking across a deserted parking lot at night, the purse might be unzipped and the hand close to the pepper spray. Walking into a public restroom it would be unlikely. And I suspect once an attack started I'd have more urgent things to do with my hands than unzipping my purse and digging through it.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Perhaps you might consider buying pepper spray and keeping it with-in hand's reach when going into a public bathroom dkw.
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Juxtapose
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I kind of think that's the heart of the matter though. It's not the $8. If everyone could spend $8 and then be safe, we would all do that.

But for the pepper spray to actually be useful, you basically need to live your life as though you're always about to be attacked. That's what I'm not willing to do. The pepper spray itself isn't a huge issue.

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Stone_Wolf_
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A little situational awareness and a handily available self defense tool are not the same as "living your life as though you are always about to be attacked".

Most bathrooms are not a problem, as a good scream will let someone know something is wrong, but when you have to go and are in a secluded section of earth, have your keys handy. No big.

Villains rely on our peaceable ways, and our assumption of our own safety to do the evils they do.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Perhaps you might consider buying pepper spray and keeping it with-in hand's reach when going into a public bathroom dkw.

If you have to live your life constantly on alert like this even just trying to use a public restroom, there's a problem that goes well beyond (and won't be solved by) constantly brandishing pepper spray.
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Stone_Wolf_
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I guess I'm the Madeye Moody of Hatrack...
quote:
Constant vigilance!
[Razz]
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Samprimary
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The issue with this is the jump from personalized advice to making this an issue of overall social policy. To engage the idea of making pepper spray armament commonplace or nearly universal, you would have to have a convincing and pressing need. You would have to have some demonstrativeness in terms of showing that ubiquitous pepper spray armament of the general population is not more trouble than it is worth, and that this can be established enough to keep the large majority of the population invested in the strategy. Otherwise, it's not going to (and shouldn't) happen. There's nothing convincingly demonstrating that a social policy of everyone arming themselves and keeping their finger on the mace holster is the appropriate response to the levels of danger and threat of violence and/or sexual assault that are presently existent. There are too many potential complications, and it seems like a misplaced use of attention, advocacy, and energy.

It can still be perfectly valid advice for individuals. As a dad, you could certainly make it a policy for your children. You could advise it and buy it for a daughter if you felt they should take a few extra steps against the likelihood of rape. But there's not enough present to make a compelling argument in favor of overarching social change, or say that this is the best approach to an issue, that it is worth advocating that it become the norm.

Gun nuts like to do this all the time. They can point to plenty of examples where they personally extrapolate 'if there had been more guns here, it would have turned out way better' and use this to conclude things like An Armed Society Is A Polite Society or that making gun armament commonplace is the way to end issues like assault and rape. They really, sincerely believe this. And it really, sincerely wouldn't work. The laws of unintended consequences are always at play, as are the laws of statistical human idiocy. If only one in one hundred people misuses their pepper spray, the idea is already in over its head.

That said, carrying pepper spray is usually a good idea for individuals to pursue, if they feel it is warranted. And it's something that many people should look at, especially if they live in an urban region with a trend of assaults.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I appreciate where you are coming from Samp, and thank you for taking the time to make your opinions known.

I am what you would qualify as a "gun nut" just for future reference.

Personally I see this discussion and my advocacy as individual advice, on a larger scale, and not social policy. I imagine that if the government did step in and just ship everyone a can of pepper spray that indeed it would likely cause as many problems as it solved.

My goal is to get people aware of how little it takes to take a very large step towards self defense.

I heard it said somewhere (don't remember where) "It's not the tragedy when evil men do evil deeds, but instead when good men do nothing to stop them." I'm trying to up the awareness, and hopefully help to give people a chance to stand up to those who would make them victims and say, "No thanks, I'm good.".

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Samprimary
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Ostensibly an edmond burke quote, albiet disputed: 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.'

It speaks more to the response to evil acts than the preparedness of individuals against predation, though.

quote:
I am what you would qualify as a "gun nut" just for future reference.
In how I have yet qualified it? Would that mean that you think that making gun armament commonplace is the solution to issues like assault and rape?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Let's not derail too much here...I have guns, I like guns, I used to teach people how to shoot professionally, I believe guns are not evil, just powerful and morality is only involved when people are...and I prefer to keep the upstanding, law abiding citizens the option of having reasonable access to reasonable guns (no full automatic, no high explosive).

I think mandatory safety training being paid for by those who are seeking weapons is reasonable as well.

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Scott R
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quote:
I think having that confidence is by far the main reason people purchase weapons.
I'd be interested in reading what leads you to this conclusion.
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Juxtapose
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I didn't qualify that nearly well enough to communicate what I was thinking, sorry.

Since we were talking about individual civilians purchasing weapons for the purpose of self-defense, that was the category of buyers I was thinking about. What I meant was that I think a weapon in the hands of the average person on the street lends more peace of mind than actual safety.

I wasn't talking about, say, people who enjoy target shooting as a sport. I'd be one of those people, although I don't own any firearms.

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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Perhaps you might consider buying pepper spray and keeping it with-in hand's reach when going into a public bathroom dkw.

Not a chance. The massive nuisance that would entail would not be worth it weighed against the minuscule chance of being attacked.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
[QB] What are you basing this on? As a person who regularly caries a weapon, and who has shooting/guns as a hobby and therefor talks to people who are armed, I'd say it is the exact opposite.]

Yes, you would. Because your perception magically (read: mildly sarcastic) justifies your viewpoint, because you choose, consciously or not, to frame your opinions of the people you associate with in this way. The ones who *are* violent, the ones who do seek out or hope for dangerous situations in which they can release their aggression, or maybe act out their fantasies of violence are aberrations to you, because you are not like them. And if you are not like them, then of course those such as yourself, who advocate being armed defensively, are also naturally not like them either.

Whereas I, a person who is very aware of the fantasies of violence and aggression that I have entertained through my life, and who therefore chooses to avoid possible situations of conflict and dangerous places, and chooses to go unarmed, see those who arm themselves as being like me, plus weapons. You see them as people like you, plus weapons. If I carried a weapon, I'd likely find a way to use it. I control my aggression carefully, because I am aware of how aggressive I am capable of being.

The truth is that neither of our perceptions are accurate in any broadly meaningful way. I know people who arm themselves, and also tend to look for danger and get themselves into fights. I could base my opinion on that, and it would suit what *I need* to be true. I can think of these people first. If I press myself, there are many I have met, such as most of the marines I know, who do not fit that profile at all. And you yourself needn't go far to collect a few violent gun death statistics to convince yourself that there are gun owners who don't share your levelheadedness either.

What you need to understand, chiefly, as an advocate of guns, is that your perception of those around you, who you choose to associate with, where you choose to go and what you choose to do form a small part of the picture when it comes to violence in an entire nation. Gun advocates (as well as gun control proponents, though in different ways) consistently muddle and confuse the difference between a subculture of responsible gun ownership, and the actual causal effects of guns as a part of society. This is a natural thing, but is something you need to make yourself aware of and deal with, if you want to understand how others feel.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Juxtapose...I fully understand that random violent crime is rare, that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for it.

quote:
You're far better off, I think, learning to plan ahead, be aware of your surroundings, read a situation, deescalate tension, and pick good companions.
These things are good suggestions, but in no way shape or form are they mutually exclusive with not carrying pepper spray.

Logically, they are not, but in practice they generally are. That's the way the human mind works. The more confident and secure we feel, the less cautious we become, the less aware we are of our surroundings and the more risks we take. All that generally happens at a sub-conscious level so peoples opinion of how carrying a weapon affects there behavior is rarely accurate. Statistically, if you are carrying a weapon you are more likely to be involved in a violent confrontation -- that's true pretty much across the board even when you control for all the other factors. If you are prepared to fight, then when something triggers the fight or flight response you are much more likely to fight and less likely to do things that will diffuse the situation.


The old adage, if you want peace prepare for war is a piece of crock. The more a country spends on the military, the more likely it is to become involved in armed conflict.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
Not a chance. The massive nuisance that would entail would not be worth it weighed against the minuscule chance of being attacked.

Well, I honestly hope you never have to regret that choice. Among my deepest held beliefs is freedom, so, you choose convenience over preparedness, and that is of course your choice to make. Personally I don't agree with your assessment of the level of nuisance nor your minuscule chances either.

quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
Yes, you would. Because your perception magically (read: mildly sarcastic) justifies your viewpoint, because you choose, consciously or not, to frame your opinions of the people you associate with in this way. The ones who *are* violent, the ones who do seek out or hope for dangerous situations in which they can release their aggression, or maybe act out their fantasies of violence are aberrations to you, because you are not like them. And if you are not like them, then of course those such as yourself, who advocate being armed defensively, are also naturally not like them either.

I find your presumptions here annoying. Of course to a certain extent people must extrapolate from their own experiences, but I have a lot of first hand experience dealing with people who choose to arm themselves, including quite a few conversations where they stated in no certain terms that to them, being armed has caused them to walk away from fights that they would have participated in if they hadn't been carrying.
quote:
If I carried a weapon, I'd likely find a way to use it. I control my aggression carefully, because I am aware of how aggressive I am capable of being.
I am thankful that you hold yourself in check, but imagine that you might instead of carefully controlling your violent tendencies you might perhaps put some of that energy into understanding why you have them, and getting help to stop them.

quote:
And you yourself needn't go far to collect a few violent gun death statistics to convince yourself that there are gun owners who don't share your levelheadedness either.
Who do you imagine I am advocating people carry pepper spray to protect themselves from?

quote:
What you need to understand, chiefly, as an advocate of guns...
I am advocating that everyone considers carrying pepper spray. My views of guns are separate from this issue and I wouldn't consider myself as a gun advocate (in the way that I am for pepper spray, i.e. most people should carry pepper spray, where as guns should remain available, but in no way do I think (let alone advocate) that carrying a fire arm should be universal).

quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
The more confident and secure we feel, the less cautious we become, the less aware we are of our surroundings and the more risks we take. All that generally happens at a sub-conscious level so peoples opinion of how carrying a weapon affects there behavior is rarely accurate.

Let me make myself clear, I am advocating carrying pepper spray, and using situational awareness to determine if you need it. This generality that if you have a weapon you will be lax in your awareness is something I do not agree with. Sure, it can happen, but you can can fall asleep at the wheel, it doesn't mean you should never drive at night.

quote:
Statistically, if you are carrying a weapon you are more likely to be involved in a violent confrontation -- that's true pretty much across the board even when you control for all the other factors.
Let's see the numbers. If you are gong to say that statistics back you up instead of just making a logical argument, then you should bloody well supply them.
quote:
The old adage, if you want peace prepare for war is a piece of crock. The more a country spends on the military, the more likely it is to become involved in armed conflict.
I'm hardly discussing military spending here. If you want to live with peace in your life, you should be prepared to deal with violence.
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dkw
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Stone Wolf, if you are seriously interested in helping people be prepared for violence, try recommending something like Gavin de Becker's book The Gift of Fear, which has been recommended here many times. It makes an important point, which you seem to either have missed or be ignoring, that there is no one right response or one right device that will work in every situation. Situational awareness and learning to trust one's instincts are much more effective than pepper spray, which is one tool that may help in certain situations. It's not a panacea, and a lot of the negative reaction that you're getting here is because you're treating it like one.

And your patronizing attitude toward the women on thread, most of whom have likely put a lot more thought into their safety than you want to acknowledge, is annoying.

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Bokonon
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Stone Wolf, I think the issue that some people have with your premise is that you are using personal anecdotes to trump reality.

Look at it this way, being struck by lightning is quite rare, but it happens (and is in fact more common than winning the lottery, for instance). I think you would agree it would be rather silly for a person to recommend that everyone should walk in a crouch (as well as generally being aware of one's surroundings/weather), even if that person had a close family member who was struck by lightning, which could have been avoided by crouching.

As others mention, I understand if you want to have your family members carry pepper spray, but extending that to society at large ought to have plenty of proof that it will be a net positive. Otherwise you are committing the same sin that you (rightly, IMO) accuse Rabbit of.

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Stone_Wolf_
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dkw: I appreciate your suggestion. I do not wish to annoy nor patronize anyone. And while I agree that pepper spray is not a magical cure all, the difference in the average person's ability to defend themselves without vs with pepper spray is hugely different. Pepper spray is a game changer.

I have zero problem acknowledging that people have concern for their safety and have put considerable thought into it. I'm glad of it. I merely wish to be informative of the distinct advantage that pepper spray offers.

That being said, I also will not simply back down from my opinions because someone says, "I thought about it." Women specifically have a height, weight, strength disadvantage and are way more likely then (non incarcerated, adult) men to be sexually assaulted.

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Bokonon
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quote:
I'm hardly discussing military spending here. If you want to live with peace in your life, you should be prepared to deal with violence.
I will add that I vehemently disagree with this point. IMO (and really, that's all it is) living peace is a more productive way to have peace, than to anticipate violence. That said, I am not a pacifist, and am willing to allow for some amount of self-defense, I just err on the side of "as little as I need". My philosophy is informed by the writings of Orson Scott Card, Kurt Vonnegut, and the writings about Jesus Christ.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Bokonon, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. One hand you are vehemently disagreeing and saying that you think that the way to have peace is to live with peace. And on the other you say self defense is okay, just as long as it is the minimum needed.

So, don't worry about violence until it is upon you? And then only do what you have to, and no more? Because if that is it, I find problems with it. I imagine that someone who is going to initiate violence (for pleasure or profit) upon you will be much more familiar with it, let alone prepared for it. So, how are you, a peaceful, non-prepared person, going to be able to defend yourself successfully against someone well versed and armed for violence?

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Tresopax
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I would think that the more that people carry pepper spray, the less effective it would become, because the more that criminals expect their victim to be carrying pepper spray, the more likely they will plan their attack in such a way as to avoid it.
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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

That being said, I also will not simply back down from my opinions because someone says, "I thought about it." Women specifically have a height, weight, strength disadvantage and are way more likely then (non incarcerated, adult) men to be sexually assaulted.

And that is precisely why many women have put a hell of a lot of thought into it.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
I would think that the more that people carry pepper spray, the less effective it would become, because the more that criminals expect their victim to be carrying pepper spray, the more likely they will plan their attack in such a way as to avoid it.

This is true. But, first off, as we have not achieved that level of universal preparedness, we are still in a time when that hasn't happened yet, so when it does we will adapt as they do.

Second, when/if this comes to pass, it might have an effect on preplanned violent criminals, it would not have an effect on circumstantial violence, that is, when things just get out of hand, and no premeditated crime is planned.

Either way, it is not a good reason to forgo your personal safety right now.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

That being said, I also will not simply back down from my opinions because someone says, "I thought about it." Women specifically have a height, weight, strength disadvantage and are way more likely then (non incarcerated, adult) men to be sexually assaulted.

And that is precisely why many women have put a hell of a lot of thought into it.
Oh, so because women do put a hell of a lot of thought into it, us men folk should just shut up our presumptuous pie holes and not "worry our pretty little heads" about it? Do forgive me for caring.
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kmbboots
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No one is criticizing you for caring. The problem is your assumptions. First, that women in general have not thought about their safety and, second, that you know what is best for them.

Also, your Heinlein is showing.

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dkw
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If you're trying to imitate an emotionally manipulative male, you're doing a fine job. If your goal is productive discussion, you might want to reconsider your tactics.
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Stone_Wolf_
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boots: I don't think I did assume that people didn't think about their safety, but as to "knowing what is best", I don't know about that either. I am merely trying to inform people of an option they *might not be aware of* and the facts about that option.

p.s. I do like me some Heinlein (not the old creepy man who wants to sleep with his mom ones though).

dkw: Perhaps I missed your point. I was trying to show you that (my perception) of your attitude mirrors the difficulties women folk have been trying to overcome.

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dkw
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I generally find that posting an attitude or position that is not one's own in order to make a point is a bad idea. It tends to obstruct, rather than enhance, mutual understanding.

If I had gone with my first inclination and responded to your post as if I didn't know you were putting on a show to make a point things could have degenerated fairly quickly.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I'm all for not degenerating and for having a productive conversation. That being said, I do not understand what your point was when you posted this, if it wasn't that I should button it.

quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

That being said, I also will not simply back down from my opinions because someone says, "I thought about it." Women specifically have a height, weight, strength disadvantage and are way more likely then (non incarcerated, adult) men to be sexually assaulted.

And that is precisely why many women have put a hell of a lot of thought into it.
Would you be so kind as to clarify please?
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CT
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
And that is precisely why many women have put a hell of a lot of thought into it.

Wait ... I seem to recall something about blithering women stumbling around running into the walls, and needing men to ninja-rappel off the cliff faces?

Good times, good times. Excuse me while I go wander into traffic. [Wink]

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CT
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Would you be so kind as to clarify please?

I'll answer for myself, not dkw.

Stone_Wolf, I do not hear footsteps behind me without my skin and hindbrain alerting to danger on some level. Even in broad daylight, a sunny park, with the ice cream truck going past. When I walk down the street, I know who is on the opposite side, how fast they are walking, and if they have looked in my direction.

This is baseline. This is standard for most of the women I know. To get lectured on this (despite how well-meaning) is like a very friendly guy giving me a powerpoint presentation on the need to and the proper means by which to wipe my own butt if I ever get diarrhea. It's ... well, I stare at you, aghast. And I don't know what to say that isn't offensive, because you have in effect just told me that you don't think I know how to clean myself, and that you can help me do it better.

So, thanks for the thought. I appreciate the concern. I'm doing just fine.

---

Added: That reads as rather flinty. Picture this from a gray-haired lady with a twinkling eye, wry grin, and tongue fairly firmly in cheek. And I punch you in the shoulder and buy you a Coke, and we go on to talk about the weather and how 'bout them Canucks?

---

Second Addition (again, for me not for dkw):

quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
That being said, I do not understand what your point was when you posted this, if it wasn't that I should button it.



My point wouldn't be "button it," but "please find a way to introduce the topic and convey the information that doesn't assume you know more about it than I do. You might; you might not. When you assume the former, even if true, that assumption doesn't add anythin of benefit to the occasion and is likely to be counterproductive."

So, for example, you might well start a thread which is about the topic of pepper spray in general. You might talk about thinking it is a good idea and then ask for feedback on your ideas in a way that is more based on shared interests than on one person laying out how it is (because that one person doesn't flat out own "how it is" on his or her own).

[ July 06, 2011, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: CT ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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Wow, CT, I never expected this kind of reaction, especially from you.

I want everyone to know about the distinct advantages of pepper spray, so I take my time and put energy into finding facts and posting them so people can make an informed decision and get accused of...saying women don't know how to protect themselves (or is it being able to wipe their butts?).

I'm forced to say...take it however you like, I can't stop you from jumping to unwarranted conclusions. I have, do and will continue to advocate that everyone (men and women) carries pepper spray as it dramatically changes your ability to defend yourself against people and animals.

You want to look at me like I have three heads and think less of me for it, that's entirely up to you.

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Bokonon
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Bokonon, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. One hand you are vehemently disagreeing and saying that you think that the way to have peace is to live with peace. And on the other you say self defense is okay, just as long as it is the minimum needed.

So, don't worry about violence until it is upon you? And then only do what you have to, and no more? Because if that is it, I find problems with it. I imagine that someone who is going to initiate violence (for pleasure or profit) upon you will be much more familiar with it, let alone prepared for it. So, how are you, a peaceful, non-prepared person, going to be able to defend yourself successfully against someone well versed and armed for violence?

Basically preparing for violence is at times a necessary evil, but still evil, and when provided unsupported exhortations to make myself more readily capable to cause violence, even in self-defense. Give me proof and I may be willing to take on the inconvenience.

I think the more you prepare for violence, the less you can live in peace.

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Bokonon
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Stone Wolf, you give facts on how, but not WHY. "How" is probably the least interesting category of facts.

EDIT: BTW, I like having you around, I think you are a great Jatraquero, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with what you say [Smile]

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CT
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Look. I don't dislike you. I am trying to explain why you are getting a reaction from women here that you don't seem to understand. It is the reaction I would have predicted given how the information was presented, and I am trying help answer the questions you have about it.

Note that I didn't jump in and lay out a critique until you asked for feedback.(not specifically to me, but it seemed a general issue of confusion)

I added a second addendum above about how I think the presentation of the information could have been done in a manner less likely to lead to the response which surprised you (and surprised you again, from me). Again, it isn't that posting simple information about pepper spray is a problem. That likely wouldn't have sparked an unexpected response. It is how it was presented, and it is certainly your perogative to take that feedback and do with it whatever you will.

I won't chap your hide for it again. Promise.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
My point wouldn't be "button it," but "please find a way to introduce the topic and convey the information that doesn't assume you know more about it than I do. You might; you might not. When you assume the former, even if true, that assumption doesn't add anythign of benefit to the occasion and is likely to be counterproductive."
My OP is simply facts about pepper spray. The only thing in it which is anything remotely like the assumptions you are crediting me is the title. Perhaps I missed something here. Could you point out specifically where I made these presumptions you seem to find so upsetting?

If I did indeed put my foot in my mouth (as I have a habit of doing) I'll happily apologize and rephrase, as this is not my goal.

Sharing information is not in my mind presumptuous at all. Believing that on average a peaceful random person might have problems fending off an attacker (human or beast) is an assumption, but hardly a damning one. And advocating that people prepare themselves for worst case scenarios is again, not to my thinking presumptuous.

But perhaps I really did mean to say that women are ninny headed weaklings who need men to, what was it, ninja rappel off of cliff faces to keep them from wondering into traffic. [Razz]

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CT
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I wouldn't have had any significant objection to your OP on its own. My preference in public threads is to acknowledge that "I advise/recommend/think" (which you do in large part) rather than tell people "do this" or "this is what you want" or "this is what you should do"(which you also do), but that's more a matter of style.

I think threads of lecturing and paternalism emerged more clearly later in the conversation, and I think that's when I saw some people start to bristle rather than just idly disagree. But I am not interested in quoting you line by line with flagged points, and I doubt you would find it terribly useful in the long run. Maybe someone else will, if you want to pursue it further.

I'm just saying that there are better and worse ways of approaching the transfer of knowledge with adult learners, and I think it was the presentation (not content) which evoked the unexpected response for you. I hope the thread doesn't poison the well of Hatrack for you, and I hope I haven't made it an unpalatable place, either. I can tell you that it is hard to figure out how to respond from a position that is subjectively like what I described, and it was frankly what I was feeling.

I get that this may not make sense. I think it is true for more than one reader, and I think that's probably worth knowing. The subject means a lot to you, and you are passionate about the cause -- I don't want to see that content get unintentionally subverted by the delivery, if the delivery is something worth working on to you.

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CT
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
But perhaps I really did mean to say that women are ninny headed weaklings who need men to, what was it, ninja rappel off of cliff faces to keep them from wondering into traffic. [Razz]

[ROFL]

Not you! Heavens!

That was an entirely different conversation we had here, and this one just very faintly reminded me of it. In fact, I wonder if the recentness of it may have primed your readers to be extra-bristly.

I'll see if I can find it.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I think I know to which topic you are pointing at...and if I'm right, then it was me...hehe.

I had said that women have worse situational awareness then men, but then detracted the statement after acknowledging that women act differently when alone then when in the presence of adult size sons/boyfriends/husbands, and that any comparison between such large groups of people would be unfair to large amounts of people, with apologies.

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CT
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Oh, my heavens. I am so sorry. If I had realized your connection to that topic, I would have avoided bringing it up, because that's awfully rude.

May I say you handled it in a very classy manner? As I recall, you certainly did.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Thanks CT...I will try to continue this thread with a more approachable manner.

I am honestly a bit frustrated that people see putting out less then ten bucks and clipping a small cylinder to their keys as a major inconvenience which outweighs the fact that it might keep them from being raped or killed.

It seems like such a no brainer to me.

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dkw
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Providing information is fine. It's the way you've been responding to people who tell you that they've come to a different conclusion than you about when and where (and who) to carry pepper spray that's the issue, for me anyway.

Let's try an analogy, since you seem to like them. Suppose I were to tell you that riding in the middle back seat of a car is much safer than in the front passenger seat (which it is) and that therefore anytime you are riding with another adult the one of you who is not driving should sit in the back middle seat. And then you said that you'd thought about it, but the chance of being in an accident where the difference in position would make a difference is low enough that it doesn't outweigh the extra leg room and the greater ease of conversing with the driver. And then I suggested that you cared more about leg room than your life, or the life of your wife if you were driving.

And then, when you said you still weren't going to sit in the back or ask your wife to do so, I said "Well, I honestly hope you never have to regret that choice. Among my deepest held beliefs is freedom, so, you choose comfort over your life and the life of your wife, and that is of course your choice to make. Personally I don't agree with your assessment of the level of added protection nor your minuscule chances either."

Would you find that somewhat presumptuous and annoying?

Particularly if you were aware of safety issues and always wore seatbelts, chose your car based on it's crash rating, etc. Not choosing pepper spray is not necessarily choosing convenience over preparedness (although I grant it might be, you don't have enough information to make that assumption about me or anyone else here).

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