posted
Orincoro: I don't always know when I'm stepping on people's toes, but I do try to avoid it, and when people here have told me that I have stepped on their toes, I have apologized and tried to keep things civil. You seem to be trying to stomp harder. I've done my best to speak to each point brought up, as I don't want people to agree because it's my opinion, I want the discussion to bring good points and flesh out the topic to make a full view. If I missed some point, I'll happily address it, even if I have to say that you are right and I am wrong. But the way to bring it up is not saying "your advice is not very good.", it's saying "You don't seem to be addressing this point." Which you did not do.
I just took a moment to look over these past points you seem to feel I ignored what you said...and I feel fully justified in my responses to you. Unless of course you are referring to your side stories about your mother's spaghetti...to which I really didn't think a response from me was needed.
El JT de Spang: Thanks...of course if she isn't comfortable using it, the rest doesn't matter, and I'm glad you were able to find something she is comfortable with.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Two things there SW, one, I stand by my assessment, your advice is not worth following in this matter for many people. Second, I was annoyed that you were not acknowledging some of the clearly stated reasons why that may be so. You said you were sad that people were ignoring your advice, as if they had simply done so out of laziness, or diffidence, and not out of well reasoned and rational disagreement with your suppositions. You concluded this by openly polling the community to see who actually considered your advice. Well, considered how? Thought about the consequences of taking it, and decided not to? Instantly recognized the notion as foolish, in their view? Or entertained the notion favorably, and then simply failed to act? You talk as if people don't do what you suggest because they're lazy. You have yet, in my view, to pay any consideration to the idea that they do it because your advice is not appropriate for them. This despite having it pointed out to you, and not just by me, that your view of things was simply not as compelling ad you believed it to be.
I don't think you did pay due consideration to that point. I don't even see you acknowledging that you understand it. I have reservations about believing yet that you do understand it as it has been put to you. And that isn't surprising, because you came into this, as all crusaders, with the sure knowledge that you were going to save the world. No perspective need be applied, no reasoned and careful consideration of the actual facts bears weight here. Well, that approach is easy to recognize, and easy to ignore. It's just almost impossible to convince the perpetrator of true-believerism that his raison d'etre is not as significant or unique as he thinks. you can't believe others don't value what you value. It is beyond your understanding. Trust me, I know, I experience this on a constant basis myself.
Thus your response to the point: " it's not a matter of how small an action it is" is: "but it's such a small action!"
The sad thing is that you're correct. It's a small, barely significant act. and that fools you into believing that your argument somehow exempts itself from the same sniff test that eliminates an oxygen canister, a satellite phone, three days of emergency rations, a Cantonese English dictionary, and a vile of tamaflu from the typical person's daily walking around kit. Each of those items, significantly, could save your life tomorrow. Hell, if you were to just crunch the numbers, you'd likely find more lives would be saved in an average day if people just carried epinephrine pens. But we don't, most of us.
quote: The sad thing is that you're correct. It's a small, barely significant act. and that fools you into believing that your argument somehow exempts itself from the same sniff test that eliminates an oxygen canister, a satellite phone, three days of emergency rations, a Cantonese English dictionary, and a vile of tamaflu from the typical person's daily walking around kit.
You stay OUT of my fanny pack! This is the last time I'm gonna say it!
Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
For the last time Orincoro...if there is something I missed and you would like me to address, just bring it up. This has long been my stance. Others do not seem to share your feelings nor the need to engage in these damning (and IMO false) incitements.
As before, I find your assumptions to my motivations annoying and wrong.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I completely share Orincoro's feelings, I haven't bothered to speak up because it didn't look like it was worth doing so.
I also think Orincoro is going out of his way to be pretty charitable compared to the glib sarcasm I would have expected at this point, and I notice and approve.
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While I now understand now that advocating for universal carrying completely and utterly derails the conversation and places the focus on "everyone" and away from "pepper spray"...I still have an agenda here, and I'm not going to hide that.
ETA: Plus it also states my opinion without there being any pressure of unwanted advice.
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I am not sure that you, Stone wolf, are in any position to complain about people not giving due consideration to your arguments. You have clearly disregarded the arguments of everyone else.
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Okay, I do. I'm not complaining, and further, never said anyone didn't give me due consideration. I was wondering if my arguments had any impact...not complaining.
As to "clearly disregarding the arguments of EVERYONE else"...by saying I'm happy to discuss anything that anyone felt got missed and doing my best to answer all points that come up?
Its one thing having people disagreeing and not finding what I find important important themselves...this is part of life.
What I do not understand is this accusation that I have simply ignored people's arguments.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
If you think that the disadvantages of carrying pepper spray are "miniscule" you haven't been paying attention to what people have been writing.
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Your argument is insurmountable, with all the evidence and logic, and in now way resembles simply your opinion. Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
What on Earth has that got to do with it? Obviously it's an opinion. That wasn't her point. The point was that you weren't addressing, repeatedly, people giving pretty reasonable (that's not to say decisive, but sound reasoning) why what you're suggesting isn't so minuscule after all. And then complaining that people weren't giving your argument fair shakes.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I specifically request that anyone who feels that their argument was not addressed, or not addressed to their satisfaction to restate it, and I will directly comment on it, even if I have to admit that it is a good point which harms my overall view/goal.
I also specifically request that people do not make useless generalities like "You have clearly disregarded the arguments of everyone else." which are clearly false and rather annoying.
You want to talk about, let's talk about, complaining without attempting to rectify the situation doesn't actually accomplish anything.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I looked over the thread and spotted some questions that didn't get answered...so here goes:
"If you pepper spray your attacker, they will become more angry and escalate the violence."
This is possible, but any kind of resistance or attempt at self defense is possibly going to cause this reaction. On one hand you have the option of not even attempting to defend yourself, but of course the lack of resistance might cause an attacker to be emboldened, or they might simply only rape or kill you as was their initial intention. Compliance has just as much chance of being dangerous (even more I would imagine, depending on the circumstance) then trying to defend yourself. At least if you attempt to defend yourself you have a -chance- of success. And that chance of success seems like it would be much much higher if you had pepper spray, as it is very effective in causing blinding, coughing, burning, vomiting, etc. What a great chance to RUN AWAY! I searched for a news piece of an attacker being angered by being pepper sprayed, and stopped looking after 5 pages. If it happens, it's very rare.
"I don't want to have to live my life in fear of attack and be constantly worried about it."
Situational awareness is a choice, and an instinct. Most people pay more attention when they feel they are entering a less safe environment. On a bright sunny day with lots of people around, the likelihood of an attack is tiny, where as alone, at night, in a bad neighborhood the chances are much higher. Why deprive yourself the option of being able to defend yourself? When you find yourself in one of those bad situations and your fear gears up your eyes and ears, wouldn't it be nice to have a "go to" plan? Knowing that you have an additional option at your disposal seems like it would be reassuring to me, not worrisome.
"I live in an area of nearly zero crime."
Most violent crimes are perpetrated by someone you know, not a random stranger. Having added ability to defend yourself, say, on your key chain where it is relatively easy to get to could be the difference you need.
"I don't want another thing on my key ring." "I lend out my keys to my children."
Pepper spray comes in a variety of containers, some which look like pens or lipstick, some with belt holsters or are incorporated into a dog leash. If this concern holds you back from getting pepper spray, just know that there are options as to shape and size and this can be overcome.
"I have a high tolerance for spicy things." "Pepper spray is not as effective on some as others."
This is no doubt true. But "not as effective" is a relative term. Pepper spray is not the Vulcan nerve pinch where no matter who you do it to is simply fall over unconscious. But the question is, will it aid you in getting away from an attacker...I still think it will. Even if it only causes severe tearing and a coughing fit, you are better off then when that person was fully able and not in a bit of pain. I was watching a documentary on a prison riot...the officers used a "sting grenade" which was basically many rubber bbs in a explosive canister to subdue the riot. The group mentality of being unstoppable and of strength was instantly shattered when pain was inflicted, reminding each person of their own mortality. (This was the documentary's conclusion, not my own.) Even with "lessor effects" on resistant people, it still hurts! It still can cause this same kind of reaction where instead of thinking about causing harm they are thinking about being harmed.
"Any weapon that can be taken away is no weapon at all." "Why couldn't an attacker just take the pepper spray and use it on me."
Of course the preferable action would be to not let them get that close. But let's say someone had a can in a side pocket of their purse, and didn't recognize the danger until it was too late to be ready in advance, and someone is already grabbing you. Simple, don't go for the pepper spray, stomp on their feet, aim for the groin, eyes, neck, ears, and nose. Get a couple of steps away, and then if you feel you have the time and it is necessary, go for the spray. The spray sitting idly in your purse might not have been helpful in this case, but it wasn't harmful either.
"What if there are multiple attackers."
Keep spraying...your situation is sucky, but hardly is it -more- sucky because you have an increased chance of fighting off some if not all attackers. But if I pepper spray two out of four won't the other two really really hurt me now because they are mad, you ask. Hey, it's possible, but it is equally possible that you spray everyone, including yourself after filling the whole area with spray and you stagger away crying and vomiting as your attackers do the same and loose all interest in prey that is going to fight back. As in question one, submitting to violent attack is equally (if not more) risky.
Sorry to those who got missed the first time...and the second...if I still missed your concern, please let me know.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
The argument you seem to me to be continually not hearing is "I have weighed the risks/benefits/costs and have come to the conclusion that carrying pepper spray is not an appropriate action for me at this time." Rather than being "sad" that people who have said this aren't doing what you think they should be doing or trying to convince them that they're wrong you could acknowledge that they know their own situation better than you do and that their decision might be right for them at this time.
Also, you didn't really address the "kid" argument in your list. Different sizes or shapes of canisters doesn't change the fact that anything accessible enough to be useful will be accessible to kids, especially if one has inquisitive and mechanically inclined preschoolers.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Thank you for the clarification...I was saddened by the understanding that no one seriously considered it...which was one of my questions. If indeed people did give it serious consideration that makes me feel much better.
As to inquisitive and mechanically inclined preschoolers...lots of pepper sprays come with a "safety" which would be helpful for adding time before they blasted themselves in the face...but mostly it is a simple matter of keeping out of their reach. I am a parent of an inquisitive mechanically inclined preschooler, and there are many many things I don't want him getting into, and I am 99% successful by simply keeping them out of his agile little fingers.
My wife has her pepper spray in a side pouch of her purse, and he has gotten into her purse once ever...and thankfully ignored the side pouch. We stopped him before he got into everything, but he still had access to make up, keys, pens, etc for a minute or two.
This pepper spray lists "child resistant" as one of it's features.
quote:The Safest to Carry. Only Spitfire has a firing button connected to a tempered copper-bryllium spring that returns to Safe automatically from any position. Spitfire is child resistant for pre-schoolers. Spitfire is safe in your pocket. It will not go off unless you want it to
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I looked over the thread and spotted some questions that didn't get answered...so here goes:
"I don't want to have to live my life in fear of attack and be constantly worried about it."
Situational awareness is a choice, and an instinct. Most people pay more attention when they feel they are entering a less safe environment. On a bright sunny day with lots of people around, the likelihood of an attack is tiny, where as alone, at night, in a bad neighborhood the chances are much higher. Why deprive yourself the option of being able to defend yourself? When you find yourself in one of those bad situations and your fear gears up your eyes and ears, wouldn't it be nice to have a "go to" plan? Knowing that you have an additional option at your disposal seems like it would be reassuring to me, not worrisome.
"I live in an area of nearly zero crime."
Most violent crimes are perpetrated by someone you know, not a random stranger. Having added ability to defend yourself, say, on your key chain where it is relatively easy to get to could be the difference you need.
These points either contradict each other, or they they are reconcilable. Either way, it certainly reduces the effectiveness of this justification.
In any event, violent crime is at some of the lowest levels in recorded US history... Without everyone purchasing pepper spray. I'd be much more interested on why that is, and attempt to popularize those methods, as well as figuring out why they don't always succeed and figure out new ways that can be effective in those outlier situations (which may, admittedly, include pepper spray).
On the third-hand, we may find that we are at an equilibrium point, such that any new, generic method to reduce violent crime may not be worth the cost, personally, financially, ethically.
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I'm amused at the revolving door thread titles.
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Boko: I'm not sure I understand your first point.
Your suggestions are fascinating, but hugely unrealistic, I mean, how are we as average citizens going to go about finding out why crime for the country is down, then popularize those methods etc etc. What you suggest is a huge statistical and interpretational endeavor which would require large amounts of money and man hours and many statisticians and other long named scientists.
It's not that I'm against your suggestion, but I don't think it is a good replacement for the suggestion of popping on to amazon.com and spending ten bucks for a key chain pepper spray.
As to your last point...you have three hands?!? That right there is enough to convince me we need pepper spray to defend against the coming apocalypse of freaks! I don't really understand the personal cost...the financial cost is very low and the ethical cost is one I also do not really get (as a negative).
Ethically, carrying pepper spray is like purchasing home/renter's insurance (except way way cheaper). One hopes that you will never need it, but if something bad happens, then you have a plan of action on how to avoid permanent loss.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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SW, you continually downplay the costs. I don't think you have heard when people have told you that the costs are not negligable.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: I don't really understand the personal cost...the financial cost is very low and the ethical cost is one I also do not really get (as a negative).
Personal cost can come in values of convenience and practicality. A person can weigh the issue of the bulk of their keyring the exact same way. Or whether they want to carry a cellphone or a pocket camera in their jeans. Or, hypothetically, if they want to save room in their front pants pocket for a dinky little pepper spray bottle that stands an extraordinarily larger chance of accidental discharge than of actually being used successfully in defense over its lifetime of personal carrying.
That's a bad ethical comparison. Pepper spray isn't a plan of action. It's not insurance. It's a defensive measure. It is not the means by which you can have a 'plan of action' to avoid permanent loss. You can have a plan of action which involves not being armed at all, natch.
Also, if I were at all inclined to carry around pepper spray, I'd sure as anything avoid the child resistant models, which I wouldn't want to futz with in any hypothetical window of opportunity to use the device in a situation of, well, personally being assaulted.
Anyway.
quote:Your suggestions are fascinating, but hugely unrealistic
The bottom line for the thread is that your own suggestions can be described this way.Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Aerin: Perhaps I do, but it is a combination of not understanding them and disagreeing with them.
Mucus: Thanks! Okay, everyone immediately cease discussion, I have been declared thread victor! Nothing to see here, move along.
Samp: I really don't get the whole key ring argument...yes it takes up room...so does the little flashlight on my key ring, and I'm happy to have both. If someone chooses that it is "too inconvenient" that is a personal choice, but I don't think it disqualifies key ring pepper spray as a tiny amount of hassle...especially when viewed vs the possibility of saving your life. As to going off in your pocket...well, that I can see as being very inconvenient and a big problem, but that particular argument is overcome with simple solutions of which pepper spray to carry and how to carry it, or to put it another way, in no way at all insurmountable.
Sure you can have a plan of action that doesn't involve carrying any kind of weapon, but to be as successful with hand to hand combat requires lots of training and even with supreme training is much less reliable then pepper spray when you have a size and strength disadvantage or an armed attacker or multiple attackers. This is exactly why I am such a proponent of pepper spray, it is a game changer, a force multiplier, one that doesn't require years of training or superior physicality to be effective.
I don't understand the ethical aspect of the discussion. Carrying a defensive measure is by definition only used for...defense. So, ethically, one isn't the aggressor, one is defending one self and morally and legally in the green. If this isn't the hinge point of the ethical aspect then I really really don't get it.
People seem to be getting angry at me for not accepting that there are major drawbacks to carrying pepper spray...but there are not. I think people are getting angry that I don't seem to accept that people don't choose to carry pepper spray for whatever reason. I do accept that it is everyone's right and privilege to make their own choices, but simply because people reject the idea doesn't mean that there is an inherent drawback to carrying it.
If people would like to point out those inherent drawbacks for discussion, then great. But their personal choice, or the end result, does not in anyway reflect on the considerations that went into it.
Oh, and Samp, carrying pepper spray is not hugely unrealistic. Myself, my wife and many many other people do it and have done it on a day to day basis for decades. Disagreeing about it being necessary and saying that the act itself is unrealistic are not the same thing by a long shot.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Samp: I really don't get the whole key ring argument..
Sigh. That much is .. evident, and I think many of us here are about hitting the wall of any expectation that we can clarify important considerations like this to you.
quote:Oh, and Samp, carrying pepper spray is not hugely unrealistic
Like so. I don't know what else I can say.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Boko: I'm not sure I understand your first point.
Your suggestions are fascinating, but hugely unrealistic, I mean, how are we as average citizens going to go about finding out why crime for the country is down, then popularize those methods etc etc. What you suggest is a huge statistical and interpretational endeavor which would require large amounts of money and man hours and many statisticians and other long named scientists.
It's not that I'm against your suggestion, but I don't think it is a good replacement for the suggestion of popping on to amazon.com and spending ten bucks for a key chain pepper spray.
As to your last point...you have three hands?!? That right there is enough to convince me we need pepper spray to defend against the coming apocalypse of freaks! I don't really understand the personal cost...the financial cost is very low and the ethical cost is one I also do not really get (as a negative).
Ethically, carrying pepper spray is like purchasing home/renter's insurance (except way way cheaper). One hopes that you will never need it, but if something bad happens, then you have a plan of action on how to avoid permanent loss.
Well, on the one hand, you say that nights in bad neighborhoods the chances are higher, but then you say most violent crimes are perpetrated by someone you know. The simple solution? Don't go into bad neighborhoods at night with people you know!
Obviously (to me), the issue is that you live in a bad neighborhood, there is a lot of neighbor-on-neighbor crime. I don't know if everyone living in a bad neighborhood packing pepper spray would reduce the crime. Maybe it would, I'd like to see it studied.
That said, most of us don't live in bad neighborhoods, so according to my theory, our chances of being a victim of violent crime is much, much lower than the national average. Which raise the bar on the necessity of having pepper spray on my person, since it isn't a perfect defense, and has drawbacks.
As far as how we can find out why crime rates are lower, there's this body most of us here on Hatrack are all members of, which has as part of its mission statement to "establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility[...]". I think that organization might be a perfect vehicle. Or even better, state or municipal governments.
BTW, you should see my twelfth toe!
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: People seem to be getting angry at me for not accepting that there are major drawbacks to carrying pepper spray...but there are not.
Yes. There are. To you those drawbacks do not seem significant. To other people, who prioritize their lives differently or who disagree with you on the efficacy and necessity of pepper spray, they are significant drawbacks. This is what you are not getting.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Flying to the moon by flapping your arms is hugely unrealistic...think that if you play your children's birthdays you will win the lotto is hugely unrealistic.
How exactly is the act of carrying pepper spray hugely unrealistic? Explain this to me. I've done it for years. How is something I've actually done hugely unrealistic?
I'm no longer calling for *everyone* or even nearly everyone to carry it. That just confuses the issue hugely.
I am making general statements...carrying pepper spray is a Good Thing™. So is wearing a seat belt, or a condom when not in a exclusive relationship or putting on a helmet while riding a bike or motorcycle. Inconvenience (even a small amount) is just the cost of doing things better and safer.
People can disagree about the benefits of pepper spray and the benefits of all these things. People can choose not do them. But I just don't see a large downside to any of them when compared to their benefits.
Wearing a helmet on a motorcycle cuts off much of your vision and dampens your hearing and depending on how one crashes, can cause neck injury.
Pepper spray, if mishandled or improperly carried can have big draw backs. So can kitchen knifes. So can automobiles.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: People seem to be getting angry at me for not accepting that there are major drawbacks to carrying pepper spray...but there are not.
Yes. There are. To you those drawbacks do not seem significant. To other people, who prioritize their lives differently or who disagree with you on the efficacy and necessity of pepper spray, they are significant drawbacks. This is what you are not getting.
This is a point that seems not to stick home...
That these drawbacks are "not worth it to them personally" does not make them "big drawbacks". Personal choice does not mean that there is a large demonstrable logical drawback.
I'm okay with people deciding against my suggestion. I'm not okay with people saying that a tiny inconvenience is a huge drawback.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Well, on the one hand, you say that nights in bad neighborhoods the chances are higher, but then you say most violent crimes are perpetrated by someone you know.
Higher and most are relative terms...
Statistically you may have a higher chance of being struck by lightning while being attacked by a shark then winning the MegaMillions lotto, but the former is so insanely rare that I feel comfortable saying it likely never happened ever while the former happens all the time.
You do indeed have a higher chance of being attacked at night, alone, in a bad neighbor hood then in daylight surrounded by people. (a comparison)
AND
Most attacks are perpetrated by someone the victim knows. (a factual statement)
(both true) I'm sure you knew that part...I'm just not sure how this detracts from my suggestion.
So your suggestion is that U.S. of A. government studies those things you suggested above...where as my suggestion is for Joe Shmoe citizen. I don't see why our two suggestions can't live in harmony. (unlike me and your 12th toe...ewww!)
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I'm not okay with people saying that a tiny inconvenience is a huge drawback.
Get over yourself.
Don't be angry that ours is a forbidden love! With the theories floating around in quantum physics about multiple realities I'm sure we had our chance in one of them! Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Yes Tom...but all the other precautions in that list are either laws or just common sense. Why is pepper spray so different?
And pointing out that I don't get it is not helpful...lots of other people have done it before you and it still hasn't changed the situation. Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Stone_Wolf, you don't get to choose what counts as a "tiny inconvenience" for other people.
For example, I donate blood. For me, this is a good thing to do and a minor inconvenience. How can giving up an evening every few weeks and being stuck with a needle possibly outweigh saving lives? Yet, I understand that, for some people, the drawbacks (which to me are insignificant) make donating blood something that is just not worth it for them. They contribute in other ways that make more sense for them.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I get you that it is relative boots...but everything is...
If we do not delineate between opinion and fact then all declarative statements would be worthless.
Clipping something the size of a roll of life savers onto ones keys is a minor inconvenience...that some people do not find worth the positives which pepper spray bring to the table.
I get that some people (everyone here apparently) sees it as not being worth it...but I think its not because the negatives are so big, but because they think the positives are so small. Of course there may be people who view having a small cylinder on their keys as a huge inconvenience...but I doubt that most people would think that theirs was a rational assessment.
I can understand the attitude of "I have small children and don't want to have pepper spray around because I worry that they would get into it." I can understand the attitude of "I'm more likely to spray myself or someone else by accident then ever successfully defend myself with pepper spray." I can understand that this is a personal choice and people will weigh the cost and benefit relative to themselves and make a decision based on their personal needs. And I don't have a problem with it, even if I tend to disagree with the outcome.
If it were all simply a matter of opinion, should everyone else accept that I speaking my own opinion in the title and each post and they should accept mine as I have been getting so much guff for accepting theirs?
I think that some things can be generalized into a mostly true state and that under that understanding, clipping pepper spray to your keys is not a huge drawback.
Of all the possible drawbacks which influence this discussion, I truly do not understand why this one in particular is such a hot topic of argument.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
SW, how about you argue the other side. I am not convinced that you DO even understand what the drawbacks might be, and therefore your dismassal of them is not meaningful.
What do you see as the drawbacks to buying and carrying pepper spray?
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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You left off "I can't carry it onto an airplane, and therefore I would either have to remember to take it off my key ring before I left for the airport and then put it back on when I got home, over and over again, or else continually buy new ones to replace the ones the TSA agents throw away." (this is not insignificant. I don't have a pocketknife on my keychain anymore for exactly this reason. A pocketknife could also be used for self-defense, plus it can be dead handy for a pile of uses besides. Pepper spray has one use only.)
Also: "My keys are bulky as it is. Clipping a container holding a cylinder to it means I can't put them in my pocket it anymore, thereby making the "convenient" bottle not only inconvenient itself, but making my keys a hassle instead of an easy part of routine."
Then there are all of the "it can be turned on me or loved ones" arguments that you are blithely dismissing. It's the blithe dismissal of that one that I really don't understand you doing - if the whole point is to avoid harm, carrying around an indiscriminate weapon isn't helping towards that end.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Stone_Wolf, it takes me at least two minutes to find my keys when I get home. Pepper spray attached to my key ring would not be of any use at all. Not everyone has a large key ring or pockets. Gentlemen often do not carry key rings; they carry key cases. A pepper spray canister (I have yet to see one that is as small as a roll of lifesavers but let's say they are out there) would be awkward.
No one is giving you guff for deciding that carrying pepper spray is a good thing for you. You are getting guff because you insist on applying what works for you to everyone else.
I carry an umbrella, rain poncho, first aid kit, sewing supplied and multi tool in my purse. I don't expect you to do so nor harangue you about how a rain poncho folds up into a tiny little square so why don't you carry one? You could catch pneumonia getting wet after all!
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I'm not okay with people saying that a tiny inconvenience is a huge drawback.
Get over yourself.
Don't be angry that ours is a forbidden love! With the theories floating around in quantum physics about multiple realities I'm sure we had our chance in one of them!
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: For example, I donate blood. For me, this is a good thing to do and a minor inconvenience. How can giving up an evening every few weeks and being stuck with a needle possibly outweigh saving lives? Yet, I understand that, for some people, the drawbacks (which to me are insignificant) make donating blood something that is just not worth it for them. They contribute in other ways that make more sense for them.
I got dizzy and had to sit down just reading that post.
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posted
Aerin: Those are good points I will add to the OP...that you should remove your pepper spray before getting on a plane...and leave it at home, do not put it in your luggage.
As to not putting them on your keys...I have mentioned that that is only one option of many when it comes to carrying...even specifically mentioning that my wife carries hers in an external pocket of her purse.
I don't think I have blithely dismissed that point...even in the OP I mention that if it is turned on you, it is less then deadly. I specifically mention twice that not resisting is a bad option, and that any resistance could possibly cause escalation. I mean, we are talking about being attacked...and what you can do in case you are attacked...so some risk is involved just in the set up...I think my response of either use pepper spray to make sure that your attacker can not get close enough to touch you, or do not attempt to use it until you are outside of arm's reach is a pretty decent answer.
Also, I couldn't agree more about carrying a blade. I've carried one (even in school, yes there are some advantages to living in a rural community, although I'll never go back) every single day since the age of 14.
Boots: I too carry a multi tool...nearly as long as I've carried a knife...super handy! I don't think I am insisting that. I am suggesting...advocating. If you were to do the same about a poncho, I would not mind, although I wouldn't do it either...but I wouldn't be angry at you for trying to prevent illness for me and mine. I do carry hats and coats in my car for all family members. But I also live in an area where rain is relatively rare. (The hats and coats are for sun and cold respectively.)
I also give blood...although not as regularly.
rivka: If you are trying to get a specific change in thinking from me, being rude and angry about it are not going to achieve your goals. If all your goals are are to let me know you are angry and annoyed...then forgive me for not joining in, but I did get that loud and clear. Even if you are angry and annoyed with me, I still love you!
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I think that organization might be a perfect vehicle. Or even better, state or municipal governments.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
