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Author Topic: Holy crap, the Boston Marathon exploded....
SenojRetep
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quote:
Originally posted by SenojRetep:
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
The United States has also been blowing up Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union for a good ten years now and counting. The entirety of their adult lives have been concurrent with the current "war on terror."

But these men were radicalized due to Chechen nationalism, not due to Wahhabist or Qutbist ideology or Afghani, Pakistani or Iraqi nationalism. The jihadist links from their various social networking sites don't seem to be about striking out against the US for its wars, its drones or anything else. They were mostly about the Chechen struggle.

Personally, I think their motivation was much less rational. They were probably feeling frustrated and powerless, personally and socially. The violent sermons of radical clerics gave focus to that frustration, glorifying (abstractly) the idea of jihad. If they'd lived in Chechnya, they would have struck out against the halls of power in Moscow. If they'd lived in England, they would have bombed London. In Syria, they'd have joined the fight against al-Assad. My point being, it doesn't seem like they, or others who seem to have felt similarly, are trying to strike at the US due to a perception of anti-Muslim political policies. Rather, they're lashing out from their sense of dislocation and disaffection in a way that helps them feel powerful, by attacking whatever powerful interests they can.

<edit>That's not to say there aren't terrorists who are primarily motivated by the reasons Mucus has cited, or that such reasons played no role in the antipathy the Tsarnaevs felt (and almost certainly played a role in the anger felt by the radical clerics to whom they listened). Just that, based off the information I see, it seems like this could have happened anywhere conservative Muslims are living in a secular society.</edit>

Just to have some accountability, according to 'a US official familiar with the interviews', Johar claims that the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan played a significant role in his and his brother's motivation. The article makes no mention of Chechen identity as a motivating factor in the attacks. The official further states that the attacks do not appear to have been directed by any foreign organization, but that the brothers were "self-radicalized" as a result of viewing jihadist material on internet sites.
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Boris
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Let's also just ignore that probably most of the casualties of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars were caused by Muslims killing *other Muslims* and not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.

I say probably because no one decided to take the time to determine who caused what deaths. Because blaming it all on the US is a *much* more appealing narrative when you want to brain wash an entire generation into thinking the US is *entirely deserving of every terrorist act enacted upon it*. I suppose the Jihadis are right. We're all evil people who deserve to die violently and without concern for age, gender, creed, or social standing.

Seriously...why the hell are you guys trying to come up with *excuses* for a couple of mass murderers? Are you *that* disappointed that it wasn't some far right wing-nut?

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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/11/10639152-us-staff-sergeant-kills-16-afghan-civilians-officials-say?lite
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SenojRetep
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
Let's also just ignore that probably most of the casualties of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars were caused by Muslims killing *other Muslims* and not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.

I say probably because no one decided to take the time to determine who caused what deaths. Because blaming it all on the US is a *much* more appealing narrative when you want to brain wash an entire generation into thinking the US is *entirely deserving of every terrorist act enacted upon it*. I suppose the Jihadis are right. We're all evil people who deserve to die violently and without concern for age, gender, creed, or social standing.

Seriously...why the hell are you guys trying to come up with *excuses* for a couple of mass murderers? Are you *that* disappointed that it wasn't some far right wing-nut?

Personally, I'm not interested in coming up with excuses. In the text I quoted I told Mucus that I thought, based on social network evidence, that the motivation for radicalization was much more likely to come from the situation in Chechnya, than from the US's foreign policy. I was just pointing out that, according to an anonymous source's account of Johar's comments, and taking those comments at face value, that isn't the case.
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/11/10639152-us-staff-sergeant-kills-16-afghan-civilians-officials-say?lite
That's 16...How about the other 100,000+?
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MattP
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What is the correct number to be enraged about? Since these guys only killed 4 people in Boston, should we shrug it off?
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
What is the correct number to be enraged about? Since these guys only killed 4 people in Boston, should we shrug it off?

I think you missed my point, Matt. People are arguing that the reason they decided to do this was the wars in the middle east, and half excusing this behavior on the idea that they are somehow justified in killing civilians who had nothing to do with those wars *because* of those wars. Because what would you do if you were in their position?

That's pure delusion. These guys were lonely, angry individuals with no social skills or ability to function in the real world and their addled minds picked whatever rationalization they could find to lash out at someone other than themselves.

It's outrageous to me that there are people who are willing to accept the idea that the US somehow had this coming and it is just and right for those 4 people to have been killed and those dozens of others to be physically maimed. That's a complete load of hogwash, and if you think that, you're not playing with a full deck.

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MattP
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quote:
t's outrageous to me that there are people who are willing to accept the idea that the US somehow had this coming and it is just and right for those 4 people to have been killed and those dozens of others to be physically maimed.
It's a big world with a lot of people. Pick any position you find outrageous and someone is going to hold it.

Is there someone in particular that you are arguing with though? I don't see anyone on this thread that matches your characterization, nor am I aware of any influential public figure suggesting that what happened was "just and right".

[ April 23, 2013, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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kmbboots
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Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.
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The Black Pearl
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boots is right.
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RivalOfTheRose
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Warning Extremely graphic injuries detailed.

http://www.chrisspivey.co.uk/?p=11184

[ April 23, 2013, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]

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TomDavidson
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And the stupids.
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RivalOfTheRose
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Sorry about the lack of warning. I don't really believe it, but the 'bottle of fake blood' made me do a double take.
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Destineer
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Senoj, I'm a huge fan of your last couple posts and your overall intellectually honest MO. Rock on.
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dkw
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I read the warnings, and I clicked the link anyway. There are some images there I would now like to unsee.
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.

Do you often find yourself trying to empathize with deranged madmen? Can I point out that doing so is probably a fool's errand? And do you realize that implicit in the act of empathizing is an acceptance of the idea that the actions and feelings of those you empathize with are a result of the workings of a completely rational and sane mind?

Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.

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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
[qb] Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.

Do you often find yourself trying to empathize with deranged madmen?
Yes.
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kmbboots
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It is easy to decide that otherwise sane people don't do terrible, wrong things. It lets us off the hoof to believe that they are simply villains and that no good person could understand them or do what they did. It is also a lie.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.
You've said repeatedly that they're deranged madmen, and strongly rejected any attempt to try and understand their motives.

Now that you've done this, it will be interesting to see how you will ever account for their 'real' motives and actual causes. I imagine it will be difficult to do without, you know, somehow attempting to understand their motives. Unless of course your rebuttals were actually just a convenient way of trying to shame people out of speaking ideas you don't like.

It's strange how out of touch your outlook is. Do you imagine, for example, that people who make it their business to pursue or thwart such men stop at the physical evidence and say "Well it's purposeless to try and understand them, they're just deranged madmen," or do you think instead they try and use whatever tools are available?

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kmbboots
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It is comforting to think that no one we know or like could ever commit an atrocity. Or that we couldn't. It has been proven time and again both by history and experiment that nice, normal, sane people are quite capable of committing great evil.

And even if it were a case of insanity, that would make it organic and an argument could be made that this made the culprit less responsible for the evil that he did.

Humans don't fall neatly into "good guys" and "bad guys". We are more complicated than that. Grown ups realize this.

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Elison R. Salazar
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
Let's also just ignore that probably most of the casualties of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars were caused by Muslims killing *other Muslims* and not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.

I say probably because no one decided to take the time to determine who caused what deaths. Because blaming it all on the US is a *much* more appealing narrative when you want to brain wash an entire generation into thinking the US is *entirely deserving of every terrorist act enacted upon it*. I suppose the Jihadis are right. We're all evil people who deserve to die violently and without concern for age, gender, creed, or social standing.

And I'm sure many of the millions of dead Russians in the Great Patriotic War were a result of the regular dislocations caused by the USSR being a warzone and not per se deliberate German actions, however I wonder why "Conspiracy to commit aggression to accomplish a crime against peace" is a war crime and crime against humanity regardless?
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.
You've said repeatedly that they're deranged madmen, and strongly rejected any attempt to try and understand their motives.

Now that you've done this, it will be interesting to see how you will ever account for their 'real' motives and actual causes. I imagine it will be difficult to do without, you know, somehow attempting to understand their motives. Unless of course your rebuttals were actually just a convenient way of trying to shame people out of speaking ideas you don't like.

It's strange how out of touch your outlook is. Do you imagine, for example, that people who make it their business to pursue or thwart such men stop at the physical evidence and say "Well it's purposeless to try and understand them, they're just deranged madmen," or do you think instead they try and use whatever tools are available?

You realize that the people who are best at doing those kinds of profiling jobs usually end up with some serious psychological issues of their own as a result of their work?

I'm not able to really explain what I mean in an acceptable manner to people who constantly feel like attacking me instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, because apparently it's more important to understand the works and motivations of terrorists than those your political opposites. I mean, if you guys honestly were trying to understand and empathize, wouldn't you be doing the same with, I don't know, conservative American ideals? But you very obviously don't, based on just about every thread I read on this forum these days. I suspect that this lack of interest in empathizing with your political opposites contrasted with the increased desire to empathize with terrorists is more about finding a way to attack your political opposites than it is about actually gaining an understanding of their motivations.

What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right and that perhaps we do deserve to be killed and maimed for our actions abroad.

"The United States has also been blowing up Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union for a good ten years now and counting. The entirety of their adult lives have been concurrent with the current "war on terror.""

Here's what that statement sounds like to me:

"Oh, we've been bombing them for ten years and these poor kids grew up in that environment and of *course* they're going to come over here and blow up our civilians as a result. That's only logical and reasonable."

I'm sorry, but it takes a hell of a lot more than just anger at foreign influence to get a normal person past the psychological blocks that prevent them from committing mass murder.

I am not arguing that it's not possible to empathize with these people, I'm arguing that doing so without specific training in psychology, particularly *criminal* psychology, is a complete waste of time. Because any theory an untrained individual will come up with is going to be outright wrong from the very nature of the psychological issues involved. Further, why do you not spend so much time trying to empathize with people like Jared Laughner, or Adam Lanza, or James Holmes? When those guys killed people it was just, "BAN GUNS WHARGARBL!!!!" or "CONSERVATIVES CAUSED THIS WHARGARBL!!!!" Why are you so inconsistent?

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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Humans don't fall neatly into "good guys" and "bad guys". We are more complicated than that. Grown ups realize this.

God I love being patronized. This is why I come to this forum. I really am a glutton for punishment, apparently. I keep wondering why you guys are astonished that the only conservatives left on this board are trolls.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
You realize that the people who are best at doing those kinds of profiling jobs usually end up with some serious psychological issues of their own as a result of their work?
I'm gonna flat out say I'm very dubious as to your actually having real knowledge on this matter. Are you involved in any sort of criminal psychology? Work regularly with the violently unstable? Have you studied such matter, perhaps, extensively in your private life? Or is this statement what it sounds like, informed by pop culture?

quote:
I'm not able to really explain what I mean in an acceptable manner to people who constantly feel like attacking me instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, because apparently it's more important to understand the works and motivations of terrorists than those your political opposites. I mean, if you guys honestly were trying to understand and empathize, wouldn't you be doing the same with, I don't know, conservative American ideals? But you very obviously don't, based on just about every thread I read on this forum these days. I suspect that this lack of interest in empathizing with your political opposites contrasted with the increased desire to empathize with terrorists is more about finding a way to attack your political opposites than it is about actually gaining an understanding of their motivations.
Oh, alright. So this is really just fueled by self-pity. People attack your beliefs and you really don't like it.

I say that because here's what you fail to understand: concluding 'part of his rage was from poorly understood but very intense anger over American military activity across the world' *does not* equate to 'and therefore his murders aren't quite so bad. It's offensive and childish of you to assert otherwise, which of course is exactly what you're doing-openly in places.

Pull your head out of the amber waves of grain and realize this, Boris: acknowledging that the US has done bad things-much less acknowledging that someone else, such as a criminal, thought they did bad thing!-does not equate to believing in a moral justification, in any extent, for mass murder. You have basically two choices at this point-you can either continue to believe you are thoroughly aware of the inner thoughts of people you strongly dislike, or you can listen to them when we say emphatically 'hey, we don't think that!'

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Samprimary
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quote:
I am not arguing that it's not possible to empathize with these people, I'm arguing that doing so without specific training in psychology, particularly *criminal* psychology, is a complete waste of time.
Whereas reflexively depersonalizing and somehow mysteriously concluding based off of some made up post-rationalization that they had "no social skills or ability to function in the real world" (when pretty much everything we know about them indicates that your assessment of them is pure bunk) is apparently a-ok in comparison.
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Boris
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Oh, alright. So this is really just fueled by self-pity. People attack your beliefs and you really don't like it.

Ah good. More personal attacks. Keep it up. You make me want to move over to your way of thinking with every insult.
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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rakeesh:
[qb] [QUOTE]

I am not arguing that it's not possible to empathize with these people, I'm arguing that doing so without specific training in psychology, particularly *criminal* psychology, is a complete waste of time.

Well as an actor and a screenwriter, and I would argue as a human being, it's my job to do my best anyway. Showing empathy and aknowledging how the US may have caused these people to suffer and carry out a horrible crime, probably sends a better message to the other people who are suffering in similar ways. And maybe we prevent a similar crime in the future. Yeah, it's probably a fool's hope. But empathizing with people is the only thing I know how to do I gotta do something. There's nothing political there. Don't give a shit about conservatives/liberals.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Are you involved in any sort of criminal psychology? Work regularly with the violently unstable? Have you studied such matter, perhaps, extensively in your private life? Or is this statement what it sounds like, informed by pop culture?
The statement is, as a point of fact, completely untrue. Offender profilers and forensic psychologists don't have any special larger share of issues that other people in the same stress-inducing criminology/justice related fields don't have.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Oh, alright. So this is really just fueled by self-pity. People attack your beliefs and you really don't like it.

Ah good. More personal attacks. Keep it up. You make me want to move over to your way of thinking with every insult.
You've been talking in a concertedly insulting and contemptuous tone and making statements just as directly insulting as someone pointing out where your contempt boils over from. If you're going to start critiquing the failure of persuasiveness due to hostility wherever you see it, you better remove all the mirrors in your house at least until you figure out that we don't need an Occasional 2.0.
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Rakeesh
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Something else to consider: such people are likely to be considerably better measured on such matters, being in the field as it were, than the general population. And they *still* don't show as more crazy.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right...
Yes, maybe they are right. But they are not right. They are wrong. It is possible that they are right. But they are not.

quote:
it takes a hell of a lot more than just anger at foreign influence to get a normal person past the psychological blocks that prevent them from committing mass murder
It takes, for example, a couple of years in the military.
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Rakeesh
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No kidding, Boris. You've repeatedly and openly told people that they're sympathizing with mass murderers because they dislike America. So maybe don't whine so much when people are mean to you.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:


I'm not able to really explain what I mean in an acceptable manner to people who constantly feel like attacking me instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, because apparently it's more important to understand the works and motivations of terrorists than those your political opposites. I mean, if you guys honestly were trying to understand and empathize, wouldn't you be doing the same with, I don't know, conservative American ideals? But you very obviously don't, based on just about every thread I read on this forum these days. I suspect that this lack of interest in empathizing with your political opposites contrasted with the increased desire to empathize with terrorists is more about finding a way to attack your political opposites than it is about actually gaining an understanding of their motivations.

What makes you think that we don't understand the motivations of conservatives? Understanding is not the same as agreeing.
quote:


What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right and that perhaps we do deserve to be killed and maimed for our actions abroad.

No. It doesn't. Again, there are a lot of links missing in that chain you are putting together.
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steven
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The younger brother is 19. From the evidence so far, it looks very much like his older brother talked him into this.

I remember how dumb I was at 19. I may not have been quite as malleable, but I was definitely an angry young man, and I knew very little about the larger world. I'm not about to judge this kid. Beat his ass, if I had the chance? Yeah, I'd slap him around, if he seemed to have a bad attitude. Then I'd explain why--because I had a very good friend running the marathon that day, and she missed the blast by just a couple of minutes. If she wasn't such a high-level runner, she'd have finished later, and might be dead right now. I don't appreciate people who try to kill my friends.

But I'm not going to judge this idiot. He was young, malleable, partly justifiably angry, and heavily influenced by his older brother. That doesn't mean that killing him is going to solve anything. He certainly doesn't ever need to be back on the streets, but killing him solves nothing.

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odouls268
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Humans don't fall neatly into "good guys" and "bad guys". We are more complicated than that. Grown ups realize this.

God I love being patronized. This is why I come to this forum. I really am a glutton for punishment, apparently. I keep wondering why you guys are astonished that the only conservatives left on this board are trolls.
Good. Goood. Let it flow through you. Soon your journey towards the dark side will be complete.
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odouls268
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
The younger brother is 19. From the evidence so far, it looks very much like his older brother talked him into this.

I remember how dumb I was at 19. I may not have been quite as malleable, but I was definitely an angry young man, and I knew very little about the larger world. I'm not about to judge this kid. Beat his ass, if I had the chance? Yeah, I'd slap him around, if he seemed to have a bad attitude. Then I'd explain why--because I had a very good friend running the marathon that day, and she missed the blast by just a couple of minutes. If she wasn't such a high-level runner, she'd have finished later, and might be dead right now. I don't appreciate people who try to kill my friends.

But I'm not going to judge this idiot. He was young, malleable, partly justifiably angry, and heavily influenced by his older brother. That doesn't mean that killing him is going to solve anything. He certainly doesn't ever need to be back on the streets, but killing him solves nothing.

"partly justifiably angry"

How so, in your opinion?

(The preceding is a rare moment of genuine curiosity)

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odouls268
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right...
Yes, maybe they are right. But they are not right. They are wrong. It is possible that they are right. But they are not.

quote:
it takes a hell of a lot more than just anger at foreign influence to get a normal person past the psychological blocks that prevent them from committing mass murder
It takes, for example, a couple of years in the military.

I might be reading this wrong Tom, but are you saying that a couple of years in the military is what is needed to indoctrinate someone into being psychologically capable of mass murder?
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odouls268
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quote:

The statement is, as a point of fact, completely untrue. Offender profilers and forensic psychologists don't have any special larger share of issues that other people in the same stress-inducing criminology/justice related fields don't have.

Yeah, that's why I wanna be a librarian.

That, and all the Ludlum's I can read.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I might be reading this wrong Tom, but are you saying that a couple of years in the military is what is needed to indoctrinate someone into being psychologically capable of mass murder?
Yes. Although it's far from the only way.
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Mucus
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I feel like some effort and some heartache could have prevented by some careful reading. Here's the context in which I was posting.

quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
The more information that comes out, the more confused I get. Historically, the United States has supported the Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union. We helped free them from Milosevic, and have always demanded that Russia show restraint with Chechnya. Has the Obama administration done anything to change that policy?

quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
The United States has also been blowing up Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union for a good ten years now and counting. The entirety of their adult lives have been concurrent with the current "war on terror."

...

This sounds tragic for everyone really. If you want the drone war to be pulled back, then nope. If you're Muslim-American, bad news. Tragic for the victims, especially the international ones like Lu Lingzhi that were just "there" and were unlikely to have been targets.

Someone was confused as to why the US might be considered a target as opposed to Russia. I gave a possible explanation and called it a tragedy.

A tragedy is what most humans would recognize as something that is *not* "just and right."

If you're still puzzled, an explanation is something that makes a chain of cause and effect understandable. It is not in this context, an observation about morality.

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Mucus
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Another quick thought, Boris is posting the assertion that the brothers were insane. If this is in fact the case, the surviving brother may use this as a legal defence. Is there any evidence that they are in fact insane or is this just a reflex reaction? I'm reminded of some initial reactions to Anders Breivik who was in fact found by a psychiatric examination to be sane.

quote:
Originally posted by SenojRetep:
Just to have some accountability, according to 'a US official familiar with the interviews', Johar claims that the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan played a significant role in his and his brother's motivation. The article makes no mention of Chechen identity as a motivating factor in the attacks.

I also want to say that I appreciate the update and definitely respect the accountability.
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by odouls268:
"partly justifiably angry"

How so, in your opinion?

(The preceding is a rare moment of genuine curiosity)

The US's foreign policy has not been without its missteps over the last 60+ years, especially in the Muslim world. Setting up our favored puppet in Iran, supporting Saddam in Iraq, etc.. They largely hate the US, and not entirely because we're not Muslims.
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Rakeesh
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It's not as simple as 'they largely hate us', nor for that matter is it as simple as 'the Muslim world'-which would be what, exactly? Do Iran and Saudi Arabia, for example, get lumped together in the same group?
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Tuukka
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.

Do you often find yourself trying to empathize with deranged madmen? Can I point out that doing so is probably a fool's errand? And do you realize that implicit in the act of empathizing is an acceptance of the idea that the actions and feelings of those you empathize with are a result of the workings of a completely rational and sane mind?

Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.

Even if they would be certifiably insane, it would't hurt to try to understand why they did what they did. Because even insane people act according to some internal logic.

Criminal psychology does this all the time. Thanks to successful profiling, many killers, rapist, arsonists, etc, have been caught.

It's also sometimes helps to catch potential insane mass-murderers before they actually commit their crimes. A lot of these people are caught when they are merely planning to commit something. And it happens because professional profilers have been able to find patterns that even insane people do in preparation to their acts.

It's impossible to find any logical reason why we should *not* try to understand such people. Your concept of profilers becoming crazy due to too much profiling work, is something that happens only in popular fiction.

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Samprimary
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Neither one of them is likely to be certifiably insane in any sense that will matter at all for sentencing purposes, but I'm pretty sure both of them were nuts in the same way I've called some posters here nuts, and obviously the older brother was radicalized enough at some point to make the jump to bombing crowds.

The elder wonder chechen may also have had some legitimate serious mental issues and had become something of a total nutbar, getting himself kicked out of his mosque in the process. Got in 'domestic disputes,' was a bully in school, etc. He sounds like he has just never legitimately been a good person? Iunno, i guess they're gonna test his brain for CTE too.

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Elison R. Salazar
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Clearly Boris needs to watch Psycho-Pass to really understand what he's talking about.

To put it in context, sometimes in order to catch a criminal before he can strike, you have to understand their mindset, to the point of where you can think like they do. "Aha, that corner looks like a pretty good spot if I wanted to shank a guy unobserved..."

There's no real line to which you stop trying to understand that mindset.

Kinda like Boris's reasoning above, "Your trying to understand them more just means you won't actually understand them so don't bother!"

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Clearly Boris needs to watch Psycho-Pass to really understand what he's talking about.

You're joking, right?
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Samprimary
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for context

quote:
Psycho-Pass (PSYCHO-PASS サイコパス?) is a Japanese anime television series by Production I.G. The series aired on Fuji TV's Noitamina programming block between October 2012 and March 2013 and has been licensed by Funimation Entertainment in North America. A manga adaptation began serialization in Shueisha's Jump Square magazine from November 2012. The story takes place in the near future where it is possible to instantaneously measure a person's mental state, personality, and the probability that a person will commit crimes with a device installed on each citizen's body called the Psycho-Pass. It follows members of Unit One of the Public Safety Bureau's Criminal Investigation Division and the crimes they investigate.
Please be joking.
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Elison R. Salazar
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Why would I have to be joking to reference visual media for current events or subject matter?

In that world, the people who would be mentally predisposed to murder and terrorism ("Latent criminals") are screened from society and institutionalized (or executed). So there's literally no police force anymore, there's zero need.

But occasionally there's individuals who are "different" psychopaths, people who can't be effectively screened, or snap and commit their crimes before authorities can detect them. When this happens you have the Ministry of Public Safety and their "Enforcers", latent criminals kept on as "hunting dogs", the only people left trusted to hunt down criminals.

Because, by being latent criminals, they are the only ones who can "think" like a criminal (ergo why they are latent criminals see?) and thus the only ones mentally equipped to outthink criminals. Their handlers or "inspectors" have clear psycho-pass's, they investigating, or trained in investigations such as criminal profiling would result in them becoming latent criminals themselves. Their job is to stun the enforcers if they get out of line.

The relevance is to make a simple point, you need people who can understand and think like criminals, if you are going to catch them, preferably before the act. A lot of people simply can't, can't imagine such cruelty, but you need some people who can imagine it.

(Police vs Enforcers is that there's literally, no police anywhere, you have 5 guys to cover all of a major 10 million+ populated metropolis for the occasional person going nuts and statistically that's all that is needed.)

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Tuukka
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I'm sure it's a fun series, but it's selling a myth that exists mainly in fiction.

You don't need to be a latent criminal to think like a criminal. You are somewhat supporting the ridiculous point Boris was making earlier on, about dangers of profiling.

Understanding criminals is not an emotional process. It's an intellectual one. The best person to do profiling is a kind of person who can separate his own emotions from the process, and use only his intellect, combined with his intuition. The more analytical you are able to be, the better you are at your job.

(This is also true of shrinks, BTW).

Emotions only blind you in criminal investigation. If you are a latent criminal yourself, thus adding emotional stakes to the process, it makes you a worse profiler. You are thinking what *you* would do, instead of thinking about all the options what a criminal would do. This kind of subjective approach would be limiting.

You do need intuition to support your intellect, but intuition is more about creativity. It's not emotion, and it's not passion towards something (crime).

Sure, there are some examples of ex-criminals becoming profilers, or safety experts. This seems to be particularly typical in frauds, confidence tricks, hacking, etc. People who have shown particular talent for aforementioned things, can be good at spotting criminal work by others.

But the concept of hiring an imprisoned serial killer to catch another serial killer, or hiring a serial rapist to catch a serial rapist, or hiring an arsonist to catch an arsonist, would be fairly pointless.

However, it's important to get as much information from caught criminals, as possible. This information, and psychological profilers of caught criminals, forms a database that be later used to catch more criminals.

If you were to catch a serial killer, would it be more helpful to hire a convicted serial killer who can tell you why *he* did what he did (Getting an extremely subjective version, riddled with lies and self-deceit), or would you hire someone like Richard Walter? He was a prison psychologist, who due to his work knew over 2.000 murderers, sex-offenders and serial killers, and helped create many of the fundamentals that are used in profiling still today (Along with actually catching many real world criminals).

I'd go with Walter.

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