quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: To be fair, Skippy was intended to be a ridiculous joke.
Sure, so was Elan Sleazebaggano, before he paired up with Kid Boba Fett yes this also actually happened
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Because the guy shakes them down he's Jewish?
You disagree that Episode 1 is chock full of racist caricatures? You didn't watch the Trade Federation guys and wonder if they delivered in under 30 minutes?
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in addidion to a hook-nosed flying elephant blimp thing with a yiddish/italian accent, the actors voicing Neimoidians were asked by Lucas to imitate Thai people, Jar-Jar was still seriously a freaking minstrel show, etc
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basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
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There's a difference between discussing possible racist overtones and disseminating them.
You're arguing after the fact that there was overt racism, and that anyone reading your comment should have been aware with it. But it reads MUCH more like you're perpetuating the racism.
You feel like George Lucas made a bad call, but you're the one running with the ball. :/
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
Your definition of fun is different from mine.
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: But it reads MUCH more like you're perpetuating the racism.
- person a, intentionally or innocently (doesn't matter) puts a bunch of insensitive racial stereotypes in a movie - person b openly observes the presence of the portrayals in the movie - ??? - person b was the real racist all along
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RANK S - RIDICULOUS 6. Luke Skywalker 7. Vitate (non-clone Palpatine is about here) 8. The Exile 9. Revan 10. Kreia 11. Marka Ragnos/Naga Sadow
RANK A - EXTREMELY POWERFUL 12. Zanna 13. Bane 14. Freedon Nadd 15. Nomi Sunrider 16. Starkiller (defective clone) 17. Anakin Skywalker (as Vader) 18. Yoda 19. Exar Kun (as Force entity)
RANK B - VERY POWERFUL
20. Krayt (resurrected) 21. Mace Windu 22. Malgus 23. Jaina Solo 24. Satele Shan 25. Obi-Wan 26. Jacen Solo 27. Bastilla Shan 28. Malak 29. Mara Jade
RANK C - THOSE IN THE LIST WHO ARE MERELY POWERFUL
30. Dooku 31. Maul
quote:Bonus: Which would you pick as your entry in a 1v1 lightsaber tournament?
If we're talking a full-on no holds barred force fight that happens to involve lightsabers, Palpatine's clone. If we're just talking a battle of force use through lightsaber combat exclusively, Luke Skywalker. If we're talking just lightsaber combat, Mace Windu.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Ok, I have a question...
Why do the bad guys always demand (or accept for that matter) the surrender of the good guys the second they have the advantage instead of just leaving them smoking corpses (otherwise known as Bond villain syndrome).
They don't. Plenty of Sith and other rat bastards the galaxy across quite clearly aren't in prisoner-taking mode (and when they are, they're arrogantly seeking new fodder for the dark side).
Jedi Civil War / Galactic Cold War sith were generally as murderhouse as you got.
quote:If storm trooper armor can't stop a blaster bolt or even chipped flint spears wielded by angry teddy bears, why bother wearing it at all?
Its portrayal in the movies aside, the Stormtrooper armor was extremely useful, even if in its general screen time it was a murderhouse for on-screen stormtroopers. It was also very resilient, even if it probably wasn't going to do so well against direct powered heavy blaster hits.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Also...why did blowing up the death star win the battle for the rebels when there was still a fleet of star destroyers orbiting Endor?
And when Whatto told Qyi Gon he wouldn't take republic credits why didn't he walk ten steps to the next guy and use his Jedi mind trick for a simple currency exchange, then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
The Imperial fleet orbiting Endor took heavy losses, including the Executor (this was a second incredibly important loss beyond the second Death Star) and was forced to retreat. Or, perhaps they weren't forced to, but Palpatine, Vader, the Grand Admiral, several important admirals, and the ranking Moffs had all just been killed. There was a massive power vacuum (and apparently the loss of Battle Meditation because the EU likes to cram that into EVERY battle of any import), so, they panicked. The Emperor was very totalitarian so it was a huge head-of-the-snake thing that gravely impacted the Empire.
The Empire's military might was huge, still. But this was a fracturing moment that brought about the downfall of the Empire.
Also: The Watto exchange with Qui-Gon literally just makes utterly no sense and is amazingly dumb. You cannot make sense of it. No amount of nerd retcon can make it make decent sense. It's just totally 100% bad writing, no matter how much of it you blame on "the force musta guided him there"
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Also if there are only ever two Sith why would the Emperor and Vader try and recruit Luke?
Some time before the Prequel movies, some sith noticed a real problem with the Sith ideology where you have the whole master/apprentice thing where you prove you are worthy of master by killing your master.
the problem was a master would have several apprentices and there would be multiple masters with apprentices and often apprentices would gang up on masters to murder them and acquire leadership but often start killing each other in infighting, and at the end you would have less capable masters and knowledge of sith mastery would have incurred a net loss.
they decided on a Rule of Two, to say that there was only ever one master and one apprentice at any given time, to ensure that the Sith would grow with knowledge of the force rather than cannibalizing themselves as much as they were.
Hooray!
So they did that. Except when they didn't, because Sith are self-absorbed schemers and constantly broke the rule of two ANYWAY.
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posted
I like how most of your answers are basically "because Lucas is stupid" and not annoying technobabble frosted over with fan boy enthusiasm.
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i know enough about how awful lucas was as a storyteller, writer, and director to know that people who are worrying about the new star wars movies are wasting their time with the worry.
honestly, what have we got to lose at this point? there is no way the new movies will not be an improvement. You have nowhere to go but up from the prequels.
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quote:Originally posted by Herblay: But it reads MUCH more like you're perpetuating the racism.
- person a, intentionally or innocently (doesn't matter) puts a bunch of insensitive racial stereotypes in a movie - person b openly observes the presence of the portrayals in the movie - ??? - person b was the real racist all along
He'd already referred to Watto by name. Then he said:
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: ...why didn't he walk ten steps to the next guy and use his Jedi mind trick for a simple currency exchange, then walk ten steps back to the flying Jew pig/elephant and buy the part?
- If a movie calls someone an epithet, such as the n-word, is it okay to call their character that in an out-of-context conversation? - If you interpret that a character is a stereotype, is it okay to just refer to them as such without preamble?
He applied a few epithets to the character and included the word "Jew". There was no discussion about stereotypes. It was completely without preamble and out of context to any discussions of characterization. It came off as if it was Stone Wolf's opinion of the character.
If you want to discuss stereotypes in science fiction, you could just as easily apply them to any world. Star Trek, maybe? Are the Ferengi Jewish because they value a free market system? Or would it be RACIST OF ME to make the implication that their culture is Jewish?
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posted
Or what about Klingons? They highly value honor and have a short temper. If out of the blue I refer to Worf as a "grater faced Mexican pig creature", am I just implying that Gene Roddenberry is a racist?
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1. A term used to characterize a person or thing 2. A term used as a descriptive substitute for the name or title of a person.
Or...
3. An abusive or contemptuous word or phrase
Because the first two are undeniable...but if you mean the third than are very mistaken as to my intent.
I feel very comfortable in my characterization of Lucas' intent. I myself a Russian Jew, on my mother's side, so a Jew by Jewish standards. Not that would give me a pass had I said anything truly racist.
I was not summing up my opinion of Whatto, but Lucas' clear and definite "vision".
Had Klingons been an obvious and painful caricature of a real culture (as the trade federation, Jar Jar and Whatto are) I would call Roddenberry out just like I am calling Lucas out.
I am serious having trouble with your opinion that the characterization of Whatto as innocent and equally as racist as "calling Vulcans space Greeks".
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I myself a Russian Jew, on my mother's side, so a Jew by Jewish standards.
Completely off topic...
Did you grow up practicing? I'm curious, because I've never seen you mention being Jewish before. Which is more or less like me - I'm a German/Russian Jew (from my mother), but since I grew up Christian (though we did eat kosher), I never really talk about it. Like, I don't think I've mentioned it very often here, if ever.
Some Jews I meet, even if they had no involvement with the faith or culture growing up, talk about it frequently. Like, some of them will mention it within the first few minutes of meeting me. Others are like me and don't really mention it until they're asked, which isn't often if you don't have the "look." (i.e, I'm tall and blonde, which ironically makes some people make Nazi jokes about me...)
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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My paternal grandfather tried distancing himself from his Jewish heritage so hard he changed his last name...after my mother and uncle were adults and he & my grandmother had already divorced.
So my mother's maiden name, my uncle's last name and my grandmother's last name she kept are all Grafston (already Americanized from Grafstien by my grandfather before he met my grandmother)...and my grandfather's was Grafton.
So my mother/uncle were raised nonreligious...but in an internal family culture that remained largely Jewish.
My Russian Jewish mother married my Swedish/Scottish father and raised me Christian (she called herself a completed Jew).
I always knew I was "Jewish"...not sure why exactly. I rarely mention it as I am not a believer in organised religion, nor have I ever been a part of a real Jewish community.
To this day, my tiny little 5'1", 120 lbs mother will go ballistic and need to be held back from physically assaulting people who use "Jew" as a verb for negotiating a lower price.
She almost hit Gary Busey for smoking a cigar indoors in CA and being a real dick about it.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
I think you are reaching for stuff to quibble about here. Jar Jar uses "meesa" in stead of "me" or "I". To my recollection it is not used to mean "mister" or "master".
Posts: 1100 | Registered: Apr 2008
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It's a good thing your mother doesn't read your posts!
I think the point is basically this: - There is a meme that claims certain characters in the prequel films are racist charicatures. - If people are familiar with the meme, your comment could be considered a dig at Lucas. - If people are not familiar with the meme, the simplest assumption is that you are making a racist comment.
I think that the only criticism was that you could have stated your point more clearly without implying prejudice on your part. And that a bit of clarification might be required.
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I don't quibble about that specifically. it's just an ironic coincidence given the other complaints about jar jar binks
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: wedge antilles is a perfect example of the complete and total inbred continuity porn that the Extended Universe drowned itself in.
Antilles was an even vaguely noteworthy presence in the movies, which GUARANTEED that like any other even-remote-split-second-character-presence in the movies, no matter how otherwise non-noteworthy, they would be written into a skillion books and comics and be central to a million billion pulp adventures forever always.
It's been a guaranteed constant of the EU.
The droid that Luke initially purchased from the Jawas that then subsequently bust a motivater, leading Luke to then take R2-D2 instead? He was on screen for a few seconds! SO now compliments of the EU, he is Skippy, the Force Sensitive Droid, who has his own adventure because Boba Fett bumped into him while he was serving drinks at Jabba's palace, but he saved the drink with the force and realized he could be the first droid Jedi! And he force persuaded the gammorean guards to let him go, and he got captured by Jawas, then saw that Luke had the force, got selected by Luke, but then saw through the force that if Luke didn't take R2, the Rebellion would fail and Leia would die, so he committed droid suicide after force persuading Luke to take R2, and none were the wiser as to how this droid had actually just saved the rebellion with the force i am not making any of this up.
I would agree that the stretching of epic backstories for minor characters can get annoying (see also: IG-88's final fate...or was it one of his final fates, since he's a droid, and can apparently get multiple bodies or something) - but I think that even though in concept the Antilles problem is bothersome, the actual execution of most of his stories where he is the hero is significantly superior - mostly because it stands alone, despite being continuity-spinoff at its worst.
Of course, if you aren't a fan of pulp military scifi action stories, then it definitely is a problem. I am, so I still love those stories. (Except for the one about his first girlfriend. That one is the worst.)
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Clear communication is always a worthy goal, however I disagree utterly with your point. And so does my mom.
Since we are handing out unsolicited advice: perhaps you could benefit from not speaking for or about the mothers of those whom you have just met.
That aside, I barely had the internet in '99 when Epo Uno graced the big screen. If memes were around then I didn't know about them. I'm not basing my opinion on an internet meme, nor do I feel that it requires any extra knowledge beyond watching Whatto to conclude how ridiculously obvious and blatant the stereotyping and shjt ass writing are.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: basically for fun just replace jar-jar's "meesa" with "massa" and just watch how comically quickly it gets uncomfortable and you go 'hey wait a minute'
I think the worst part is actually when Qui-Gon says, "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." As if he can't possibly be a fully sentient being because he doesn't speak standard English (or Basic or whatever you call it in the Star Wars world). Seriously, this is a huge element of racism against black people in the US.
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To this day, my tiny little 5'1", 120 lbs mother will go ballistic and need to be held back from physically assaulting people who use "Jew" as a verb for negotiating a lower price.
.......
Since we are handing out unsolicited advice: perhaps you could benefit from not speaking for or about the mothers of those whom you have just met.
Two points: - You're the one who referred to your mother's reactions to comments akin to yours. - We've never met.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I'm not basing my opinion on an internet meme, nor do I feel that it requires any extra knowledge beyond watching Whatto to conclude how ridiculously obvious and blatant the stereotyping and shjt ass writing are.
I didn't say internet meme. I said meme. Different definitions. A meme is any piece of information shared by a group.
So ... if you come to an independent conclusion, you feel that you can reference it with slurs and people should just understand what you mean? So, if I refer to Ferengi from Star Trek as money-grubbing Jews ... it's not my racism, merely whomever created the characters?
Following that logic, I could certainly generalize about YOUR character. Though I would certainly attribute all of the fault to you and your writing. I guess you and George have something in common, huh?
quote:So, if I refer to Ferengi from Star Trek as money-grubbing Jews ... it's not my racism, merely whomever created the characters?
I don't think that being able to recognize when a character is based on an existing stereotype means that you're actually stereotyping the group in question. To suggest otherwise is to say that anyone who is offended by a robot character who comes into a film with a backwards baseball cap and a gold tooth, calls everyone "ho's" and "niggas," and threatens to pop a cap in someone while holding his gun sideways must secretly think very little of black people.
That you can recognize when a portrayal is prejudiced does not mean that you yourself share that prejudice.
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If you say "those Ferengi are money grubbing Jews" yes I would consider that a racist comment. If you said "those Ferengi are being portrayed as stereotypical money grubbing Jews" I would consider that a comment on the possibility of the show's creator as being racist.
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Herblay...you are quickly losing credibality with me. I've been posting here (under thus and my previous account) on and off for nearly two decades, so when I say we just met it should be entirely, completely, blatantly obvious what I mean.
So...either you don't get what I'm saying or you are picking nits to a silly degree. Either way it is not a ringing endorsement.
As to my mom...see above point.
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quote:So, if I refer to Ferengi from Star Trek as money-grubbing Jews ... it's not my racism, merely whomever created the characters?
If someone says something, even sardonically, that points out the bizarre racist caricature of a character in a movie or tv series, expressing it isn't actually in any automatic or categorical sense the dark secret underbelly of the observer's racism brah. The End.
And yes, the Ferengi got fairly close to the wire on jewey presentation in TNG, but fortunately DS9 managed to expand on the Ferengi well enough to bust that comparison in twain.
aaaaaaanyway this is getting too pedantic even for a thread about minute star wars lore points. Let's just sum it up: The prequel trilogy came front-loaded with dumb racially stereotyped characters. If Watto, Jar-Jar, the Neimodians, Shu Mai, etc, were not all part of the same trilogy you could assume that it was perhaps accidental that there were some accidentally obtuse portrayals, that it was just frankly a bizarre visual oddity that by Attack of the Clones Watto was wearing sporting a funny little hat and beard. After the fifth weirdly racist portrayal though, it's not worth assuming it was coincidence.
Especially when we know things like this: Silas Carson, the actor who portrayed Nute Gunray, was directly asked to imitate Thai speech when looping the dialogue for the movie. The Neimoidian very-a spreshul spreech was no accident. We don't have to go far to find Lucas' other lazy racism.
And it doesn't matter too much because the movies were big giant steaming turds anyway so it's not like the racism issue is a blemish on an otherwise intriguing addition to the franchise.
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aaaaaaanyway this is getting too pedantic even for a thread about minute star wars lore points.
Sam, when you made this thread, this is exactly where you wanted it to go and its fairly obvious. I'm just saying.
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quote:And it doesn't matter too much because the movies were big giant steaming turds anyway so it's not like the racism issue is a blemish on an otherwise intriguing addition to the franchise.
I just want hold hands with this sentence on the beach during sunset.
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aaaaaaanyway this is getting too pedantic even for a thread about minute star wars lore points.
Sam, when you made this thread, this is exactly where you wanted it to go and its fairly obvious. I'm just saying.
totally busted, I couldn't wait for the thread to be about stone wolf's secret star wars racism, totally got me there, totally
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Really really put me in a bad mood. The sabre is terrible, not only the crossguards, but also light effects. Terrible "force awakens" animation. Overall terrible. I'm so scared.
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: There's probably a simple answer for this, but why is there a black man in a Stormtrooper uniform?
Aren't they all supposed to be clones of Jengo Fett?
No. The clones had an accelerated aging rate. After the conclusion of the clone wars and the end of the Jedi and the Republic, the remaining Kaminoan clones began to age out of service, as well as becoming increasingly unreliable after the biochips in them were used to trigger Order 66 — while they performed as 'programmed,' this disturbed them greatly on a psychological level and they began to wash out of service even before they were phased out due to physical infirmity. That plus a little bit of convenient problems on Kamino ensured that the stormtrooper corps would first become a lot of clones not based on Jango, and then eventually was mostly just recruits.
By the time of A New Hope, most stormtroopers were just regular enlists and possibly all of the Fett clones were dead or retired.
And now that it's 30 years in the future, probably none or virtually none of the troopers are clones.
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The sort of photorealistic effect is jarring. I kind of like it, but it's weird for a Star Wars film.
Not a fan of the claymore lightsaber.
Like the stormtroopers.
Missed the Lucasfilm badge at the top. I really hope the opening 20th Century fanfare still have the Lucasfilm flash across it, because to me, that's 90% of what gets me excited at the very start of a Star Wars film. Seeing Bad Robot flash across the screen will just remind me it's made by the guy who ruined Star Trek.
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Kurtzman and Orci have been left behind on Star Trek, so if Star Wars isn't fixed, it won't be for the reasons that Star Trek was ruined.
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: There's probably a simple answer for this, but why is there a black man in a Stormtrooper uniform?
Aren't they all supposed to be clones of Jengo Fett?
No. The clones had an accelerated aging rate. After the conclusion (...)
I think it's not the case. The actor (John Boyega) looks like he has a bigger part in the movie. My guess is he is just disguising as an imperial soldier.
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