FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The They Said A Thing thread (Page 12)

  This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  ...  9  10  11  12  13  14   
Author Topic: The They Said A Thing thread
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PanaceaSanans:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Statistics on the lethality of pointy sticks?

Do (wooden) lances qualify as pointy sticks?
Fits the bill to me.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You couldn't enter a crowded nightclub with either of those weapons, and if you could you couldn't kill 49 people with them.

Oh! Unless it's an episode of Buffy, and you're a Slayer, and they're vampires. A pointy stick might work then. But not actual human beings, unless it's a movie and you're Jet Li and we ignore what happens when you drive sharpened wood through living bone over and over again.

Of course there's also the issue of it being impossible to really regulate anything but the open carrying of pointy sticks, since one can hardly outlaw access to wood and knives or even edged rocks. This is another way in which pointy sticks are fundamentally different from firearms.

The biggest way is that pointy sticks are much, much, much less effective tools of violence than firearms. Somebody, some guy around here, remarked on the abundant examples of history proving that point. Another difference is that there is no way to effectively regulate access to pointy sticks, for reasons explained above. This isn't true of firearms as can be seen throughout the world and indeed here in the United States with automatic weapons, which are very effectively regulated.

So. One tool is much, much deadlier than the other. It requires an industrialized culture to produce it, culminating in a tool that maximizes violence while minimizing effort-an extremely efficient and potentially useful piece of technology. The other requires opposable thumbs, rudimentary knowledge of how to use tools, and the ability to then thrust with the constructed weapon. Short of beating someone to death with your bare hands, there are few methods of violence that take *more* effort than a pointy stick. The other guy lives if he's faster than you are, or maybe even just more agile. You could kill a few guys with your pointy stick before it broke.

If all of that isn't enough to illustrate why throwing pointy sticks into a discussion of gun control-and it's baffling to me to imagine why it wouldn't be-there's more. It is possible to regulate access to and use of firearms. We even do it in the United States with automatic weapons, and it's done to further extent through much of the world. On the other hand, it is impossible to regulate access to wood and sharpened rocks and/or knives. While it could be possible to regulate someone carrying pointy sticks out in the world, you would have a tough time stopping starving downtrodden peasants in North Korea from being able to construct a pointy stick. Because there's trees and rocks. There's always trees and rocks.

Ok! So, now you can set aside this transparent sidestepping of the question of armed guards in crowded nightclubs being the silver bullet for preventing mass shootings, right? Well, I mean experience tells me that the answer to that question is 'probably not', but hope springs eternal.

For christ's sake. Pointy sticks. Well at least I can take comfort in the fact that you're not likely to vote.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Incidentally, you're correct to be skeptical about the CRPC.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Of course pointy sticks are less effective & unbanable...that was the point of giving them as the bottom of a range. I was going to include bare fists just to make a point. But was pressed for time. (Both Annual & Quarterly's made it to the printer on time)

Is this a gun control discussion?

Guns are by far second class to bombs...or box cutters on planes...

I'm saying...clearly it doesn't matter what weapon restrictions are in place you just can't stop a person bent on killing others as it's so fricken easy!

Yes...we can and should control who gets what guns...the part that boggles my biscuit is you -know- my stances on guns...we agree like 90%.

But still...gotta be Rakeesh...I like how stubborn you are...it reminds me of me, I just really wish you were more open to talking about hypothical or ethical stuff w/o you jumping all over me w your complaints of over a decade.

So...anyway...

What drives humans to want to lash out this way? To kill as many of the people they see as the world's problems?

I understand that the shooter was a closeted gay.

I was reading how the majority of mass killings are from exes...by the fbi's standards anyway...will edit post w link tomorrow...

ETA:

quote:
Breakups, estrangements and family arguments make up the majority (53%) of cases, though unrelated victims may be caught in the crossfire.
Redirect from USA Today: http://www.gannett-cdn.com/GDContent/mass-killings/index.html

[ June 22, 2016, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's not clear he was a closeted homosexual, from where the investigation currently stands. If it were easily demonstrated, such as from clandestine relationships or an online presence by the shooter, it would've come out now. I think it may end up being the case that he was either a self-hating homosexual, or someone who was curious and also self hating as at least a component of his motives, but that it would never be able to be proven. After all, if he kept it all between his ears he could have been very very homosexual or bisexual, but there would not be evidence of it.

Two things are necessary for a mass killing-motive and tools. You can have all the motive you want and without reliable tools, well, you get a case such as the one you cited from China with 5x the attackers and only 80% of the body count. By your own references, the tools do matter. That's simply inescapable.

It is also true that if there were infinite tools but zero will there would be no mass killings, yes. The trouble there is that the tools are not used only for mass killings. In the United States, mass shootings are a drop in the bucket of the actual gun deaths. Suicides, accidents, and more ordinary one on one crimes of passion all (even accidents, I think) far outnumber the death toll of mass shootings in the United States.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 12043

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The plot thickens. Though who knows if the guy is making it up.
Posts: 185 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
clearly it doesn't matter what weapon restrictions are in place you just can't stop a person bent on killing others as it's so fricken easy!
ok
Posts: 15417 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
carrying a weapon to defend yourself and those around you is the responsibility side.

I'm in process currently to carry concealed in my new county.

how horrifying
Posts: 15417 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
who cares about the tool used?...it really doesn't matter that much if it was an AR, a sword, a bomb, a car or a pointy stick really!
ok
Posts: 15417 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sam, I feel your brevity is inversely related to your participation value.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
The plot thickens. Though who knows if the guy is making it up.

This makes sense to me at least. Lone wolf killers are often self hating I would imagine.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Sam, I feel your brevity is inversely related to your participation value.

Actually brevity on certain subject matter is a hallmark of this thread, so I dismiss your objection from this part of the discussion.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You didn't duly note my objection, merely hand waved it away.

I do enjoy your games tho. [Wink]

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You complained about his brevity, I remarked-correctly-that that form of brevity is a feature of this thread in that context. So yeah, your objection wasn't so much noted as analyzed and found wanting, an explanation of why given, and then dismissed.

The joke still worked though. I mean I could have dug deeper and looked at all the times you've resorted to one-liners or jokes in response to serious questions-not just from me-and posted 'em all here. Would've been impressive, as there are a number of times you've done that. More work than I felt like doing, though.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You sound like my mother in law...'but YOU did this!'

Your message at least is consistent.

Anything I say is wrong & should be dismissed & Stone_Wolf is a jerk.

My interactions w you seem to be nearing the distracting from the topic phase.

Perhaps since you value brevity so you might exercise some?

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
1. There actually were two high profile shootings IN ORLANDO that weekend. A singer was shot and killed by a fan at a big concert in addition to the mass shooting. What would otherwise be major news was largely drowned out.

Yes! Thank you! I thought I just thought my cheese was sliding off my cracker!

quote:
2. Stone Wolf, you said that "statistically" it was likely that an armed person in the crowd would have ended the attack after only two people were killed. I'm not sure where you got that statistic.
I found the info graph I was referencing, not a clue if they are a trust worthy source, will research. https://slowfacts.wordpress.com/2015/12/11/we-stopped-mass-murder/

quote:
How many mass shootings were broken up in the last year by someone who was armed in the crowd?
I'm not sure about annually, but I posted that story of ten that did help. So it DOES happen.

quote:
For that matter, there WAS an armed guard at Pulse who failed to take the shooter down.
This seems to suggest to me that one armed guard is not enough.

quote:
There IS evidence that vigilantes in crowds are terrible at stopping mass shooters. When Gabby Giffords was shot, a man in the crowd almost shot an off duty police officer. Why? Because in that situation, with little or no training (or even with training), it's VERY difficult to deduce WHO to shoot at. It's not always the crazy person with an AR-15, and even then, if I have a gun and I see someone with a gun, it's hard to look away from that person. You never know. There's a similar story out of the Virginia Tech shooting, that an armed student was nearly killed by police because the situation was very confusing and no one knew who the active shooter actually was. Also, when someone tried to take down the mall shooter in Seattle a few years back, he was instantly targeted by the mass shooter and killed. In short: there's little data to support your point, and quite a bit of data to suggest that untrained vigilantes are actually terrible at stopping a mass shooting in process.
As I'm researching this subject, I will look for the trend you are suggesting, however, if you have any particular articles or stats you would like to share, I would love to see some numbers. One thing that strikes me is that you say "untrained vigilantes" a lot, however, you might not remember from the gun control threads of old that I am heavily for required training for ownership, and further training to obtain a carry permit. So...no "untrained" anything. Vigilantes? The world has a negative connotation...but for realies yo, wouldn't you like some of our honorably discharged vettes (and similarly trained professionals) to be able to try and save lives?

quote:
3. Anyone who says the method doesn't matter is being pretty silly. Clearly a gun is more deadly than a knife. How do I know this? We haven't fought wars with swords...ever...in America. We switched to guns. Because guns kill people better. It's literally the only thing they were designed to do. Guns shoot things. Guns were made to kill either people or animals. Quickly. Accurately. From a distance or up close. Peddling the idea that a pointy stick is the same thing as a long gun with a high capacity magazine is incredibly intellectually dishonest.
On MANY levels it does matter...however I feel that when it comes to the discussion of morality and motivation wise, the tool used is not relevant.

quote:
4. Why do we pretend that guns are different from anything else in society that kills people? Cigarettes kill people, so we regulate the hell out of them and try to get as few people as possible to smoke them. Cars are dangerous, and back when they killed an awful lot more people, we started regulating the crap out of them to make them safer, and we required people to have insurance to drive one. When terrorists hijacked a plan they reinforced cockpit doors and stepped up searches. When one smuggled in a bomb, they made us take off our shoes and submit to those naked xray vision scans. So on and so on and so on and so on. Every time we've identified a mass threat in society we've taken mass action to reduce the number of deaths. Have any of these solutions COMPLETELY ELIMINATED THE THREAT? No. But we've saved millions of lives for our efforts. Why are guns the only thing that everyone claims defy all the rest of the rules we've set up in society for how we decide to enact regulation to save lives? Guns, in that sense, are no different than unprocessed milk or seat belts. Yet half our society pretends they are. Can we please do more to do away with this notion?
I'm all for regulation of firearms. Psych evaluations, safe handling training, tactical training, all at the expense of the applicant (as long as it is not exorbitantly expensive, and thus a limiting factor). I'm all for licensing known dangerous/powerful tools, from vehicles to medical practitioners to firearms and limited franchise.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
wouldn't you like some of our honorably discharged vettes (and similarly trained professionals) to be able to try and save lives?
Sure. Issue them all epi pens and bandages to carry with them. They'll save a lot more lives than they would with guns.
Posts: 37419 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stone Wolf

quote:
I found the info graph I was referencing, not a clue if they are a trust worthy source, will research
So I'm not enough of a statistician or expert to really parse the data, but, assuming all those stories are true, the problem comes in trying to compare things that actually happened with counterfactuals.

The data would have to fall into three buckets. 1. Every mass shooting that actually happened and wasn't stopped until law enforcement arrived. 2. Every time someone tried and FAILED to stop a mass shooting. 3. Every time someone DID stop someone after a shooting. For this last group, you'd have to try to quantify what would have happened had the shooters or potential shooters not been stopped. It would be a case by case basis with lots of guesswork. I'm not sure we could ever pull really useful numbers from it, but that's what we'd have to do.

So again, I'm not sure where you got your overall statistic that more armed people in crowds means more lives saved.

quote:
This seems to suggest to me that one armed guard is not enough.
In hindsight perhaps not. But let's say 30 people in the crowd had guns. How confident are you that they all would have known exactly what was happening and known exactly what to do? That all 30 of them in a loud, dark night club would know exactly which person with a gun, or maybe which person FIRING a gun, they should also fire at. I'm not saying people with guns don't stop bad guys, but the idea that more guns makes us more safe just doesn't pass any sort of logical muster with me. More guns seems far more likely to me to make a situation far more dangerous. Yes, even potentially more dangerous than what actually happened in Orlando.

quote:
One thing that strikes me is that you say "untrained vigilantes" a lot, however, you might not remember from the gun control threads of old that I am heavily for required training for ownership, and further training to obtain a carry permit. So...no "untrained" anything. Vigilantes? The world has a negative connotation...but for realies yo, wouldn't you like some of our honorably discharged vettes (and similarly trained professionals) to be able to try and save lives?
Gun safety, practice at the range, and the like are completely different things from training for an active shooter situation. Completely different. Unless you actually support requiring everyone to basically attend a shortened police academy so they actually have all the necessary skills to suss out and act in a situation like that, which I think probably would in fact be considered too onerous by most people.

So yes, I would indeed like trained professionals to handle the situation. They're called police officers and they're usually who we call in. But no, I probably don't want a guy with a gun and a week of training to be given that sort of power. I don't trust him. And by definition he is a vigilante. I don't have a better word for someone who takes the life or death decisions into his own hands with deadly force.

quote:
On MANY levels it does matter...however I feel that when it comes to the discussion of morality and motivation wise, the tool used is not relevant.
Morality and motivation? No, in that case I don't really think it matters. But to me it seems like you're deflecting. Your argument over the last page hasn't been that methods don't matter when discussion motivation, it's that guns are no more dangerous than sticks and knives and far less dangerous than box cutters and bombs. Those are two very different points, and a proper counterargument to your position on the relative deadliness of a gun is my argument that guns are far more dangerous and the method is actually very important if our goal is to reduce deaths.
Posts: 21897 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't trust anyone who thinks that carrying a gun to the mall makes the people around him safer to carry a gun to the mall.
Posts: 37419 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
wouldn't you like some of our honorably discharged vettes (and similarly trained professionals) to be able to try and save lives?
Sure. Issue them all epi pens and bandages to carry with them. They'll save a lot more lives than they would with guns.
It's mean the way you make suggestions that don't swell male power fantasies, Tom.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elison R. Salazar
Member
Member # 8565

 - posted      Profile for Elison R. Salazar   Email Elison R. Salazar         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is it just me or does Rock Dawg always end up on the combative side of the discussion in an almost devil's advocate sort of way every single time? Like every time the Hatrack Hive Mind & Me have an ounce of consensus your like "Nope." and cross your arms and just sit there growling at us.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I don't trust anyone who thinks that carrying a gun to the mall makes the people around him safer to carry a gun to the mall.

Tom doesn't trust cops & armed security eh?

Or by carry you mean concieled? Cause that still includes off duty cops & retired cops...fyi

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Lyr:
So again, I'm not sure where you got your overall statistic that more armed people in crowds means more lives saved.

I think there is confusion...I was just referencing the main infograph...14.3 dead when stopped by LE, 2.3 dead when stopped by civys.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Tom doesn't trust cops & armed security eh?
Well, no, I don't. And I trust random insecure whoozamawhats even less.
Posts: 37419 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Lyr:
So again, I'm not sure where you got your overall statistic that more armed people in crowds means more lives saved.

I think there is confusion...I was just referencing the main infograph...14.3 dead when stopped by LE, 2.3 dead when stopped by civys.
You originally said that statistically more armed people means more lives saved. Then you pointed to that infographic as evidence.

I'm confused as to where the confusion is.

Posts: 21897 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Lyr:
...the idea that more guns makes us more safe just doesn't pass any sort of logical muster with me.

...unless they are cops...then you think EXACTLY that, right?

quote:
And by definition he is a vigilante. I don't have a better word for someone who takes the life or death decisions into his own hands with deadly force.
So if Abad guy starts shooting at me and those around me and I say, stop them w my own gun, then I'm taking the law into my own hands...or simply defending myself?

Most folk don't want to be a hero...aren't looking for a fight, they just understand that when out in public there is reasonable chance that they will need one to defend themselves.

Sure...Zimmermans do exist...that's why a psych eval!

Also...I mentioned tactical training, not merely safety.

Also cop's training is...fast, sandwiched between ten million other important lessons & physical exertion & stress.

I've worked w cops on advanced training...and man did they need it.

Your average hobby shooter is, at an estimation, 10x more accurate with a hand gun than "I haven't fired my gun since the accademy" style cops.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Lyr:
So again, I'm not sure where you got your overall statistic that more armed people in crowds means more lives saved.

I think there is confusion...I was just referencing the main infograph...14.3 dead when stopped by LE, 2.3 dead when stopped by civys.
You originally said that statistically more armed people means more lives saved. Then you pointed to that infographic as evidence.

I'm confused as to where the confusion is.

I see your confusion, and I raise you a "huh?". You wanted the source of my numbers...I gave it... [Dont Know]

ETA...I was quoting that infographic from memory from Pintrist & it was the average amount of people killed w/o intervention by a citizen...anyway...as Rakeesh points out, the source is untrustworthy...so I retract the point in question anyway.

[ June 23, 2016, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
But to me it seems like you're deflecting. Your argument over the last page hasn't been that methods don't matter when discussion motivation, it's that guns are no more dangerous than sticks and knives and far less dangerous than box cutters and bombs.
This is likely poor communication on my part...

However I feel also there is an undertone of attatude that somehow we are supposed to be mad at guns...like he couldn't just hopped in a rental hummer and rammed it at top speed into the crowd, or spent five seconds online learning how to make a bomb.

The gun isn't the problem, the human behind it is.

There certainly is a time & place to discuss gun control...and we have...at length.

ETA: I also said in that first post...
quote:
Sure a pointy stick is harder to wield as effectively...
My point was never "there is no difference", it was, "What difference does it make?"...bc this ain't a gun control thread.

[ June 22, 2016, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
FlyingCow
Member
Member # 2150

 - posted      Profile for FlyingCow   Email FlyingCow         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, we've gone from pointy sticks to a hummer.

Personally, I like my chances at getting away from a malicious driver in a hummer much better than getting away from a guy with an assault rifle. Plus, I'd have a much better chance even if hit of escaping with an injury rather than death.

As an example, just last year a woman did just what you're suggesting... maliciously drove onto a sidewalk repeatedly in Vegas with an intent to hit people... and she killed one and injured three dozen.

Even bombs aren't usually as lethal - having many more injuries than fatalities. From 1983 to 2002, there were 36,110 recorded bombing incidents in the US... with 699 deaths.

The use of a gun (any gun) makes it much more likely that someone dies. This holds true for mass shootings, other violent crime, and even suicide. The balance between death and injury tilts much further toward death when guns are involved vs. other options.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"... or more accurately, "guns don't kill people, but people with guns kill more people than people without them".

Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have no argument that guns are effective & easy to operate killing mechines...but I'll have to look into the numbers you quoted...
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
...I remarked-correctly-that that form of brevity is a feature of this thread in that context.
[Blushing] Man I'm slow on context some times. My wife complains about it at times...not too much...she knew I was literal when she married me.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
FlyingCow
Member
Member # 2150

 - posted      Profile for FlyingCow   Email FlyingCow         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I have no argument that guns are effective & easy to operate killing mechines...but I'll have to look into the numbers you quoted...

Here are links to get you started.

Bombing data from NIH:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16394919

Vegas woman hits pedestrians:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/21/us/las-vegas-strip-pedestrians-hit/

Here's another link you may find of interest, too:
https://www.facebook.com/ezraklein/videos/10154000566913410/

Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you FC...That is SO nice! [Wave]

I will read them all before further comments.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Sam, I feel your brevity is inversely related to your participation value.

you have completely forgotten which thread you are in
Posts: 15417 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Briefly...yes.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
FC...I read/watched the vid...thank you for supplying them! I will comment soon. [Smile]
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
wouldn't you like some of our honorably discharged vettes (and similarly trained professionals) to be able to try and save lives?
Sure. Issue them all epi pens and bandages to carry with them. They'll save a lot more lives than they would with guns.
A good idea in and of itself.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
clearly it doesn't matter what weapon restrictions are in place you just can't stop a person bent on killing others as it's so fricken easy!
ok
Ok.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey...look...I remembered the format
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Being reminded at least twice doesn't usually count as 'remembering'.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Being reminded at least twice doesn't usually count as 'remembering'.

Watch this:
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stone wolf please stop posting in this thread
Posts: 15417 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um...no?

Just cause you started it you think it appropriate you get to moderate it? Including banning people from posting?

If there is anything Hatrack has taught me is...don't demand other's silence, simply stop replying when you're done.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
FC:
Even bombs aren't usually as lethal - having many more injuries than fatalities. From 1983 to 2002, there were 36,110 recorded bombing incidents in the US... with 699 deaths.

I'm shocked that booms are so ineffective. I will have to modify my understanding of how the world works...thanks FlyingCow! [Wave]
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Um...no?

Just cause you started it you think it appropriate you get to moderate it? Including banning people from posting?

If there is anything Hatrack has taught me is...don't demand other's silence, simply stop replying when you're done.

stone wolf, please stop posting in this thread.
Posts: 15417 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stone wolf, i have really tried to be at least a little bit inclusive of your views and not just shit on you, but you have been a really terrible poster and you keep getting worse and you seemingly refuse to reform your habits and you pathologically double down on your frankly super-shitty, self righteous actions.

you're shitting up my thread.

you're being a bad poster.

i am asking you to take your issues elsewhere and not 'debate' your shit in my thread. it's because i'm actually really honestly tired of you shitting up my thread. if you have even just a little bit of decency in this matter, as far as i am concerned, anything that would show me that it wasn't a big huge mistake to at least try to play nice with you these last few weeks as you started cratering out and indulging in your habits until you became hatrack's most obnoxious poster, you'll stop shitting up my thread.

if you instead just want to do what you seem to always reflexively do, which is some level of 'no!! i will post back forever always and never stop trying to skirmish, no matter how dumb and bad it makes me look' because i'm calling you out for something, then honestly it'll just show me that i was wrong to expect you to potentially be able to reform your bad, dumb habits, and i will stop engaging you with literally any semblance of respect.

please stop posting in my thread because you are being a really, really bad poster.

Posts: 15417 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Being reminded at least twice doesn't usually count as 'remembering'.

Watch this:
*snort* Here's a tip about ignoring people that is ideally learned sometime before graduating high school: the way to ignore someone is to simply ignore them. What you're doing is a step away from a sitcom farce of, "Bill, tell Jane that I'm not speaking to her."
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm including research...I'm reading up before posting, I'm doing my best to not engage in pointless personal twaddle, I freely admit when I'm wrong (even of that is not as often as you like), my personal issues; laziness, victomhood, entitledment, ignorance & obtuseness to context have all been acknowledged & improved upon...compare me to Ron & tell me I have not progessed since you told me tursely I was wrong about capital punishment...

Your opinions matter to me, but honestly, I'm about this close to reassessing that and recatagorizing into the spam file w/ three or four others.

You tell me when I'm being stupid...please, I won't complain...just don't be cryptic & expect me to get it.

As to not posting...sorry sam...I'm not going to agree to that & in the past, you (I think it was you?) pointed out how innapropriate & untenable it is to request other's silence.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey, man. If you move over to the Brexit thread, ask yourself if I treated you unfairly. You didn't know much of anything about it, so you asked a variety of big and relevant questions. I answered them and admitted to my own ignorance on at least three important points of the topic. I also didn't take even a single shot at you, and it wasn't only because I didn't know much about it that I hadn't read in the last week either.

Mostly it was because you asked questions, didn't assume knowledge that you obviously didn't have, had done some basic reading, and didn't insist on having ridiculous assertions taken seriously. Meanwhile over in the discussion of mass shootings ill just say to avoid further negativity and minimize time spent, you didn't do any of that and quite the opposite more than once.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  ...  9  10  11  12  13  14   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2