quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Armoth: I dunno, she did say on the bright side that last time there was alcohol which combined with some quality of the food made her tipsy? *shrug* There was also the claim that there seemed to be a suspicious lack of lion-dancing or fireworks for a holiday.
In addition to 4 questions there are 4 cups of wine.
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Without addressing the merits of either side, I would just note that Lisa represents the viewpoint of a small minority here.
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Without addressing the merits of either side, I would just note that Lisa represents the viewpoint of a small minority here.
The Rambam says what the Rambam says. It doesn't matter how many people ignore it, it's still there.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The Rambam says what the Rambam says. It doesn't matter how many people ignore it, it's still there.
The other side would agree with that, but with the opposite intention. The Rambam sets out a longer sequence of events than you're describing: rebuilding the Temple does not come first, nor would he seem to allow for it to be attempted by anybody not otherwise qualified to be Moshiach.
At any rate, I don't think either side ignores the Rambam. They differ over how to interpret and apply what he wrote.
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So I feel the need to bring this thread back to life as I had new questions.
Somebody in church today made the comment that the Jews hold Elijah to be second only to Moses in prominence. While I don't put much stock in what the average Mormon says about Jewish beliefs I do seem to recall Lisa once explaining that there are varying degrees of ability when it comes to prophecy, and that Moses was at the top of the totem pole.
Is there some sort of actual ladder with all the prophets in the MT? Are these rankings disputed? Or is it simply that some prophets are acknowledged for their closeness with the word of G'd while others are not?
I also had another question regarding Jeremiah. In his introductory chapter (Jeremiah 1:5) we read the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and ordained you a prophet to the nations."
What does this mean to Jews? Do people have a type of existence before birth? Is this pre-ordination something specific to Jeremiah or something more applicable to all the prophets God chooses?
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I've never heard that Elijah thing. I don't know where it comes from, unless they're referring to the end of Malachi, where it says that God will send Elijah to us before the "great and terrible day of God". Our tradition says that Elijah never died, which gives him a special status. In a way it gives him something that even Moses doesn't have, which is a knowledge of how the Torah has developed over the centuries.
I've always understood that statement in Jeremiah as referring to God's "foreknowledge" (a tough concept, because it's really just God's knowledge, which isn't bound by time, so "fore" doesn't mean anything there except in our frame of reference).
I just checked, and none of the commentaries I have deal much with it other than to read it as "Before you were born, I already knew that you'd be worthy of prophecy."
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Moses's prophecy is important as the foundation for all prophecy. There are commentaries that explain that the mass revelation at Sinai only occurred so that the people would taste what prophecy was and then go on to to be faithful to the prophecy of Moses and successive prophets.
As Lisa mentioned Elijah has a special place, especially as he relates to Messiah. There is a tradition that Elijah visits the circumcision of every boy in Israel, and that he visits the Passover meal. All over the talmud, when there is an unresolved dispute or a question that is unanswered, the Talmud writes that we leave this question unresolved until Elijah comes to resolve it for us.
But hierarchies? Not really. Jews pray to the God of Abraham, God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Not the God of Moses. There are other special significances for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David and Solomon. And Psalms singles out Moses, Aaron and Samuel at one point. Ezekiel has a special status for having "seen" prophecy of highest heights.
So...yea.
As for Jeremiah - It's a good question. It isn't clear that everyone in the world is born with the same potential. There are different sources - some say that the level of prophecy is attainable for the regular person - if they achieve spiritual enlightenment through effort, and such (at the period of history where prophecy was possible). Others believe that it is a special potential set aside for a select group.
Read simply, Jeremiah did not just earn his status as prophet, in his case, the verse makes the point that that point in history demanded the role of Jeremiah, and so God set it up.
As for existence before birth - I'm not aware of any such doctrine beyond the metaphorical.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: There is a tradition that Elijah visits the circumcision of every boy in Israel, and that he visits the Passover meal.
I always figured that the only way he could make it to everyone's seder was by borrowing Santa's sleigh. I mean, it isn't being used that time of year, right?
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: All over the talmud, when there is an unresolved dispute or a question that is unanswered, the Talmud writes that we leave this question unresolved until Elijah comes to resolve it for us.
Eh. As one rabbi said at a place where I was learning, if he does that, we'll have to kill him. Prophets aren't there to settle questions of halakha. If he's able to settle it because of his direct halakhic knowledge, fine, but if he tries to settle it by prophecy, he's a false prophet, and we kill him dead.
Also, teiku is simply the Aramaic for "let it stand". The folklore that it's an acronym for tishbi yetaretz kushyoteinu u-she'eiloteinu is just that. Folklore.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: And Psalms singles out Moses, Aaron and Samuel at one point.
Sort of, but in reverse. Psalms says that like Moshe was, and like Aaron was in his priesthood, so was Samuel among those who call God's name. And the rabbis learn from that that Moses and Aaron were in their generation like Samuel was in his generation, and Samuel in his generation was like Jephthah in his generation.
That doesn't mean that Samuel's prophecy was equal to Moses'. The only person ever to prophecy as clearly as Moses was Balaam. And that was so that the nations of the world couldn't come with the claim that we had an unfair advantage with Moses.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Ezekiel has a special status for having "seen" prophecy of highest heights.
WADR, not really. On the contrary. The Sages say that Isaiah saw much more than Ezekiel, but that Isaiah was like someone raised in the palace describing the palace, while Ezekiel was like someone from the sticks describing the palace.
They also say that even a handmaiden among those who crossed the Red Sea saw more than Ezekiel ever did, prophecy-wise.
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Sigh. Yes Lisa, I'm with you on Elijah and prophecy in settling of disputes. And my quote from Psalms and Ezekiel weren't to give competitors to Moses, it was just to show that Judaism has its heroes and we don't have a hierarchy, other than Moses that Moses was the most clear form of prophecy.
And I mentioned Ezekiel exactly in light of that medrash - there was a reason why it compared a handmaiden to Ezekiel rather than to Jonah or something.
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quote:but if he tries to settle it by prophecy, he's a false prophet, and we kill him dead.
Psh, good luck. Ahab certainly was unsuccessful at the job. Plus Elijah would evade your death strokes and taunt you while doing it. It'd be positively infuriating.
I was trying to read up on this but is a "Tishbite" a person from Gilead? I've read it could also indicate that Elijah was a "stranger" but how could that be consistent with how Obadiah reacted when he ran into him on the road on his way to visit Ahab?
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I'm not sure anyone knows what Tishbi means. It may just have been the name of the town he was born in. As far as Gilead, I'm not convinced that it's referring to the region by that name. There are indications that the word Gilead was also used for the Temple Mount, and more specifically for the Sanhedrin which had its meeting place there, adjacent to the Temple. "Is there no balm in Gilead" would also refer to that.
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quote:but if he tries to settle it by prophecy, he's a false prophet, and we kill him dead.
Psh, good luck. Ahab certainly was unsuccessful at the job. Plus Elijah would evade your death strokes and taunt you while doing it. It'd be positively infuriating.
I was trying to read up on this but is a "Tishbite" a person from Gilead? I've read it could also indicate that Elijah was a "stranger" but how could that be consistent with how Obadiah reacted when he ran into him on the road on his way to visit Ahab?
I'd rather have Elijah taunt me than have Elisha summon two bears to kill me.
2nd Kings Chapter 2 Verses 23-24 reads:
23) And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24) And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
I'll take taunting any day.
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quote:I'd rather have Elijah taunt me than have Elisha summon two bears to kill me.
Well, presumably Elisha would lose the ability to summon bears once he became a false prophet, right? Unless the bear-summoning was not actually something God did on his behalf?
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a redacted version of my favorite retelling of bible stories
quote:God will send ------- bears to eat your ------- face, and other Bible Stories
2 Kings 2:23-25
So one day, this dude named Elisha was all a prophet and ----, and walking around between prophet gigs. And some kids come out and are all "Hey baldy! What's up, cueball? How is it...having...uh...no hair? Because you don't have any so you would know." There were, like, 42 kids here. There was NOT a lot to do back then. Bald guys were like Disney World for these people.
"Hey," Elisha said, "I've got an idea: Go ---- yourselves. In the name of the Lord."
God heard the prophet's cry, and resolved to educate the young lads in a way to better respect their elders, that they could grow into the fullness of righteous worshipers of the Lord. But then he got distracted, and just sent some bears to eat them all. And lo, those bears ------- ate them all.
Goyim is plural for goy, which simply means "nation". Jews are referred to as a goy multiple times in the Torah as well, as in the phrase goy kadosh, "a holy nation". Common modern usage of goy and goyim sets them roughly equivalent to "Gentile" in English.
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Oh, dear God. Figures. No. Goy means nation. Goyim is nations. Israel is called goy echad ba'aretz, which means one nation in the land.
Because of the commonness of the phrase k'chol ha-goyim (like all the nations), goyim came to mean gentiles, or non-Jews, and the singular goy came to mean a non-Jew.
The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Who starts these stupid rumors?
It's an old one. I remember when I was reading Leo Frankowski's Conrad books, and Conrad, as narrator, explained to the readers that Jews called gentiles goyim, which meant cattle. I wrote to him, but I guess he was an antisemitic as he was misogynistic, because I never got a response.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it. [/QB]
Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.
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How about this one: isn't the Jewish law that says it's okay to practice usury upon non-Jews, but not among Jews, kind of sickening? Doesn't that effectively mean "it's okay to exploit non-Jews but not your fellow Jews"? Is it possible that this sort of behavior has historically provoked anti-semitism amongst people who hosted Jews?
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: How about this one: isn't the Jewish law that says it's okay to practice usury upon non-Jews, but not among Jews, kind of sickening?
Yes, and the way that they then take their jew gold and clutch it sinisterly and sneer their twisted grins at us from beneath their huge crooked jew noses really doesn't help that perception. I mean if only the jews could quit being so sickening all the time!
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I love that this starts right before the Sabbath, when the people being attacked won't be able to respond for 24 hours (even if they wanted to).
Sa'eed, rather than anonymously attacking people you don't know, why don't you introduce yourself?
posted
Do we want Sa'eed to introduce himself? I mean, this isn't really a case of a newbie getting off on the wrong foot, is it?
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: So, have you made up your mind or will you keep editing your post?
Or you could just not borrow money, nobody's making you accept interest.
Also, I'd *really* like this thread to remain aloof from the sort of moral debates you can have on any of the other threads. TIA.
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.
Ok people, please don't burn me at the stake for saying this but I actually think that is an interesting point. I know you all hate this guy but I'm very curious to hear some opinions about this.
Now I'm not a Jew (or Christian or Muslim for that matter) so I have no idea of the precise meanings, context or intent within the culture of all these words Jews have for other people so I can't comment on their appropriateness and have never given it any thought before but I can see where some more sensitive types might take exception.
Your rational thoughts please.
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Not true. Goyim, as mentioned above, means nations. The word goy is used to refer to the Jewish nation as well. It is colloquially used to refer to a non-Jew, as in, "he is a goy" - or a non-Jew.
If someone uses it disparagingly, it is morally abhorrent. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with Judaism if someone uses the word "goy" in a disparaging way, and only to do with racism and stupidity, which some rare Jews are capable of.
2) The differences between money-lending.
Great question. First of all, it needs to be asked whether or not money-lending with interest is inherently immoral.
I would argue that it is not. Why? Because if you don't like the fact that I'm charging you interested, don't borrow from me. I charge incredibly high rates? Great. Don't borrow from me. If I rent you my house, you expect to pay, if I rent you my money, you should expect to pay.
Now, in order to understand why Jews can lend to Jews and not to non-Jews, a complicated understanding of Judaism's position towards non-Jews is necessary. And it should be noted, that Judaism is different from other religions in the sense that the goal of Judaism isn't to make everyone Jewish, but only that everyone keep the 7 noahide commandments. Judaism's relationship with the rest of the world is kind of priestly - there is one nation with stricter commandments that is supposed to serve to help others (Jews and non-Jews alike), whether actively, or by example, to recognize God.
Because of the specific role of Jews in Judaism, Jews are meant to relate to one another in a familial way so as to create a strong sense of national identity so as to better help facilitate their role. Just as a brother or parent would lend to their brother or child without interest, Jews are forbidden to lend with interest, so as to promote this sort of kinship.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.
Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews. [/QB]
I would love to study sociology and Jewish History with you.
One hypothesis is that the Jews are evil.
There are many others. I urge you to be intellectually honest in pursuing your conclusion.
I'm happy to help you along the way if you have any specific proofs, amalgamations of proofs, and the like.
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quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: Ok people, please don't burn me at the stake for saying this but I actually think that is an interesting point. I know you all hate this guy but I'm very curious to hear some opinions about this.
Now I'm not a Jew (or Christian or Muslim for that matter) so I have no idea of the precise meanings, context or intent within the culture of all these words Jews have for other people so I can't comment on their appropriateness and have never given it any thought before but I can see where some more sensitive types might take exception.
Your rational thoughts please.
...and isn't it disturbing that you haven't stopped beating your wife, Wingracer? I mean, it's an interesting point.
It's not like I've given the matter any thought before, and I suppose I don't know just how you've been doing it, but I can certainly see where more sensitive types might take exception.
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Understood Armoth but people seem to get touchy when you call them something they would not call themselves.
The word "barbarian" (or barbaros in ancient Greek) originally only meant "one who is not Greek." Nothing offensive there. But would you like someone calling you a barbarian?
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quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: Ok people, please don't burn me at the stake for saying this but I actually think that is an interesting point. I know you all hate this guy but I'm very curious to hear some opinions about this.
Now I'm not a Jew (or Christian or Muslim for that matter) so I have no idea of the precise meanings, context or intent within the culture of all these words Jews have for other people so I can't comment on their appropriateness and have never given it any thought before but I can see where some more sensitive types might take exception.
Your rational thoughts please.
...and isn't it disturbing that you haven't stopped beating your wife, Wingracer? I mean, it's an interesting point.
It's not like I've given the matter any thought before, and I suppose I don't know just how you've been doing it, but I can certainly see where more sensitive types might take exception.
C'mon. Let's not get riled up.
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: ...and isn't it disturbing that you haven't stopped beating your wife, Wingracer? I mean, it's an interesting point.
It's not like I've given the matter any thought before, and I suppose I don't know just how you've been doing it, but I can certainly see where more sensitive types might take exception.
quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: Understood Armoth but people seem to get touchy when you call them something they would not call themselves.
The word "barbarian" (or barbaros in ancient Greek) originally only meant "one who is not Greek." Nothing offensive there. But would you like someone calling you a barbarian?
If you were in Israel, people would call you an Ish or Isha - a Man or Woman, depending on your gender. Would you call yourself an Ish or Isha? Surely your logic isn't that we can't call people words that they wouldn't use in their own language. Otherwise we'd all stop speaking, or all learn the same language.
Goy is a word. It does not mean Barbarian. It means Nation. It is fondly used at times - a "shabbos-goy" is a non-Jew who helps out on the Sabbath.
I understand your apprehensiveness about a culture you are not familiar with. That's what this thread is for. Familiarize yourself. But I hope you are open enough to really learn about who we are.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.
Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.
I would love to study sociology and Jewish History with you.
One hypothesis is that the Jews are evil.
There are many others. I urge you to be intellectually honest in pursuing your conclusion.
I'm happy to help you along the way if you have any specific proofs, amalgamations of proofs, and the like. [/QB]
In no way do I believe any group of human beings is "evil." I suspect that Jews have unhealthy attitudes towards non-Jews, and that the tribal behavior of Jews has throughout history inevitably provoked tribalism in others. I suspect this tribalism stems from the usury laws and others that, in effect, say Jews should consider members of their tribe to be more deserving of humane treatment and consideration.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.
Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.
I would love to study sociology and Jewish History with you.
One hypothesis is that the Jews are evil.
There are many others. I urge you to be intellectually honest in pursuing your conclusion.
I'm happy to help you along the way if you have any specific proofs, amalgamations of proofs, and the like.
In no way do I believe any group of human beings is "evil." I suspect that Jews have unhealthy attitudes towards non-Jews, and that the tribal behavior of Jews has throughout history inevitably provoked tribalism in others. I suspect this tribalism stems from the usury laws and others that, in effect, say Jews should consider members of their tribe to be more deserving of humane treatment and consideration. [/QB]
Two people needed a transplant, one is a stranger, the other is your brother. You can only pay for one. They are equal in all senses. Same age, gender, same religion, same moral valuableness (if you can define that), would you flip a coin? Or would you give to your brother? How about if they were unequal in some ways? Would you not still consider giving to your brother?
There is a moral value toward identifying with your family. I'd argue that family values are morally universal, you'll find them in all other religions, and among atheists. There are reasons for that - it may be more efficient for us to focus on those close to us and allow good to spread.
Judaism is a family. At the same time Judaism believes in roles. We believe in different roles for men and women, different roles for priests and non-priests, and for Jews and non-Jews. I believe moral value to be commensurate with effort and as such, I don't see a distinction between a non-Jew who puts in moral effort and a Jew who puts in moral effort.
Jewish law is meant to establish certain relationship framework. The interest law is meant to develop a familial framework among Jews so they can better fulfill their unique role in the world.
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: ...and isn't it disturbing that you haven't stopped beating your wife, Wingracer? I mean, it's an interesting point.
It's not like I've given the matter any thought before, and I suppose I don't know just how you've been doing it, but I can certainly see where more sensitive types might take exception.
What? Please explain.
Check your premises. Your question contains at least two unsupported (and ill-defined) allegations on the same order.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: If you were in Israel, people would call you an Ish or Isha - a Man or Woman, depending on your gender. Would you call yourself an Ish or Isha? Surely your logic isn't that we can't call people words that they wouldn't use in their own language. Otherwise we'd all stop speaking, or all learn the same language.
Goy is a word. It does not mean Barbarian. It means Nation. It is fondly used at times - a "shabbos-goy" is a non-Jew who helps out on the Sabbath.
I understand your apprehensiveness about a culture you are not familiar with. That's what this thread is for. Familiarize yourself. But I hope you are open enough to really learn about who we are.
Believe me, I am very open minded and I am not asking these questions to start a flame war or accuse anyone of anything. While I am not a particularly religious man, I do have an intense interest in culture, history and religion. Also, if I ever were to turn to religion, I think I would seek out a Rabbi to talk to first. Based on my limited, outsiders understanding, Jews seem to have a very practical and rational approach to religion that appeals to me.
Now back to words. I hear what you are saying and do not disagree. Especially from a Jew's perspective, I can see where no malicious intent exists (except perhaps for the few racist Jews you mentioned). But I think your example of ish and isha are a bad analogy. If what you said is correct, they are a direct translation of he and she. Goy is not a direct translation of "white" or "male" or "American" or "Technician" or any of the other words I might use to describe myself.
What I mean is that throughout history, any word with a meaning and/or usage even remotely similar to "one who is somehow different from me and my people" has either become a disparaging word when used by those people, or comes to be taken as disparaging by those being called by it.
Now, this is my first encounter with the word "goy" so I am just trying to understand it better and see what people think about it. While you say it has no foul meanings, I get the impression that if I went up to any of the few Muslims I know and called them that, they might not appreciate it. Is this true or not? Not that I intend to do it, just trying to understand.
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I'd agree that many Jews have an unhealthy attitude toward non-Jews. Just as many non-Jews have an unhealthy attitude toward Jews.
You have to realize that Jews developed as an alienated in minority in Christian lands largely due to the fact that Christianity developed from Judaism and that Christians used an oppressed Judaism as the proof to their own religion.
Jews lived similarly, albeit, not as oppressed under Muslim rulership.
One perspective is to look at the sad and awful oppressiveness that is inherent in human nature, that arises time and time again under many different cultures, and to rise from it. Another is to say that there is a people who exhibits tribalism, they're jerks, and so of course no one likes them.
Honestly, get to know us. We're not so bad.
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Check your premises. Your question contains at least two unsupported (and ill-defined) allegations on the same order.
It would not surprise me if that is true but if you do not explain, I may not figure that out and continue wallowing in ignorance. Without explanation, you just sound like a bitter man that wants to attack me for no good reason. So again, if my allegations are unsupported and ill-defined, please tell me why.
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posted
I've started a new thread for this, so that we don't have to worry about getting this one locked. What I hope is that if anyone wants to respond to something on the subject, they can write their response, but instead of cliking "Add Reply" here, copy the contents of this textbox and paste it into the textbox on the other thread, so that this whole thing gets moved over.
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The Rambam sets out a longer sequence of events than you're describing: rebuilding the Temple does not come first, nor would he seem to allow for it to be attempted by anybody not otherwise qualified to be Moshiach.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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