quote:I think that's the shul I'm attending. Knesseth Beth Israel? I'm staying at a friend who lives on Bevridge?
That's my shul! We haven't been for the last 2 weeks b/c we were hit by rotovirus followed by a stomach bug. Isn't it a great congregation? We absolutely love it there. Do you have plans to come back?
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Can't believe I missed you. It was beautiful. I really enjoyed Richmond. I'm part of an acapella group and one of our members lives in Richmond - we actually did some singing at shaleshuddis.
Hope you're feeling better!
(Yup - I'm sure I'll be back!)
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There was another video, with them singing their national anthem. It turns out that it's "The Star-Spangled Banner", just like ours.
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quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: There was another video, with them singing their national anthem. It turns out that it's "The Star-Spangled Banner", just like ours.
You know they follow it up with the national anthem of the state of Israel?
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quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: Why is this night different from any other night?
Because tonight, a co-worker of mine who is engaged has to go to what sounds like an awfully dull dinner and answer that question Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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awfully dull? then you aren't doing it right. We voluntarily stay up till about 3 in the morning - it's awesome!
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I have a question that has little to do with singing, youtube, or puns. Though I suppose if I tried hard enough I could include the last one ...
I've read several times that "Jewish Tradition" and "Rabbinical Teachings" declare that "Abraham followed the law before he knew it." Implying, I think, two different things. The first being that Abraham discovered the need for, and at least partially the nature of, God without anyone to teach him. Which I guess comes in the context of an idolatrous father. Second, that before it was given him, or anyone, Abraham followed the law of Moses. This second part is implied in a more iffy manner but I have seen it. Can anyone comment on the accuracy of these things from the Jewish perspective?
Also, there are many different ages given for the patriarchs from Noah down to Abraham in different texts. It's been claimed that the Jewish texts, the Masoretic that of course also form the basis of part of the KJV, were altered so that Shem was alive long enough to have been Melchizedek, and thus bypass the problem of the "chief priest" (I don't even want to get into what that means in different religions! ) in Abraham's time, to whom he paid tithes, not being a direct part of that lineage. Aspersions on Jewish record keeping aside, is there a tradition [aka 'teachng', I'm not sure about the best way to phrase that] that Melchizedek was Shem in Judaism?
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Armoth: I dunno, she did say on the bright side that last time there was alcohol which combined with some quality of the food made her tipsy? *shrug* There was also the claim that there seemed to be a suspicious lack of lion-dancing or fireworks for a holiday.
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The question and the four answers are generally all done as one recitation by the same person.
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On the question of the patriarchs having observed the commandments. Yes. There are many midrashim and talmudic sources that say that the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob kept the laws of the Torah before it was given.
There is a great book by Akiva Tatz called "Letters to a Buddhist Jew" - which takes questions from a Buddhist man and answers them, illustrating some of the most basic fundamentals of Judaism in a wonderful way. Maybe I enjoyed it more because I am Jewish, but ::shrug:: Aaaaanyways, he attacks this question in a cool way.
Rabbi Tatz explains that according to the Bible's genealogy, Adam was a contemporary of Noah and Noah was a contemporary of Abraham.
We are often taught (Jews in Yeshiva) that Abraham was the father of monotheism - that Abraham discovered God by observing the world and by deriving that there must be a creator. However, this is not exactly true. The people in Abraham's generation, or their parents, need only ask Adam - "Hey Adam, whose your daddy?" - Adam would reply: "God is my daddy!"
Rabbi Tatz, through use of Jewish sources explains that the people of that generation saw God has completely separate from this world. He compares worship of God to a more Christian worship - that this world is unholy and sinful, and that one must separate himself from this world to connect with God. Or to a Buddhist mentality - that one must leave the physicality of this world and enter a more spiritual realm.
What Abraham did was reject the assumption that to connect to the creator one must separate himself from the pleasures of this world. He discovered how to worship God through use of the physical world - uniting the spiritual and physical realms.
Jewish theological sources explain that the Torah does just this. Sex is not a sin, it is a commandment. Jews are commanded to rejoice on holidays with meat and wine, to enjoy life, but all according to God's precepts. The commandments of the Torah are the guidelines to use this world, to bring the spiritual to elevate the physical, and not reject it.
Back to the midrashim and talmudic sources that state the the patriarchs kept the laws of the Torah. Often, these midrashim are not meant literally but are meant to convey a certain idea. I believe that this is the idea they were trying to convey. The Patriarchs probably did keep some of the laws of the Torah, and may have even communicated with God as to the specific laws that were ultimately commanded later - but I think the point of these sources is to convey the message that the patriarchs worshiped differently than the religious men that preceded them. That they knew how to use the physical spiritually (and therefore "kept the laws of the Torah").
As for your second question. Yes. Many Jewish sources affirm that Shem was Malchizedek. Btw - in line with the answer to the previous question, Rabbi Tatz tries to show that Shem was a religious man but one who did not know how to use the physical in a spiritual way. He had to disconnect from this world in order to relate to God.
(Again, this post reflects my humble understanding and some opinion)
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quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: Second, that before it was given him, or anyone, Abraham followed the law of Moses. This second part is implied in a more iffy manner but I have seen it. Can anyone comment on the accuracy of these things from the Jewish perspective?
There are midrashim to that effect. Whether those are meant to be taken literally is an open question; it's possible, but really not important either way.
quote:Aspersions on Jewish record keeping aside, is there a tradition [aka 'teachng', I'm not sure about the best way to phrase that] that Melchizedek was Shem in Judaism?
Yes. Though I'd say this one doesn't matter terribly much either. I'm not aware of any problem that would arise if he were somebody else.
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"Ma nishtana ..." actually means "How does .... differ?" The four statements are four different ways that it differs.
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On the contrary; they're questions. Or if you prefer to parse it that way, they're items in the overall question. In each case, the query is WHY do we act in such a manner tonight, mixing signs of degradation and opulence in such a seemingly inconsistent manner?
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Not related and might have been covered, but why hasn't the temple in Jerusalem been rebuilt?
Contrary to what Rivka said, while there are views that we have to wait for the Messiah to come and the Temple to fall from the sky, these ideas have very little basis to them. In fact, Maimonides writes that one of the things a person has to do in order to be recognized as the Messiah is rebuild the Temple. Which obviously can never happen if we wait for the Messiah to come first.
The immediate reason the Temple hasn't been rebuilt is that the Muslims would be somewhat irked if we were to clear off the Temple Mount to do so. And by "somewhat irked", I mean that it would make all of the violence that they're currently engaged in, and all of the violence that they've engaged in throughout history, all rolled together, look like a schoolyard squabble by comparison.
That's not a real problem, of course. The bigger issue is that the government of the State of Israel is deeply secular. Even the religious members of the Knesset are, by and large, secular in their outlook, viewing religion as something for the home and the synagogue, but not something that has relevance on a national level. They all hate and fear the changes that will take place once the Temple is up again.
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quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: "Ma nishtana ..." actually means "How does .... differ?" The four statements are four different ways that it differs.
You're parsing the questions incorrectly.
Why is this night different than all other nights, so that (1) while we eat leavened stuff and matzah on all other nights, we eat only matzah tonight; so that (2) while we eat other vegetables on all other nights, we eat bitter herbs tonight; so that (3) while we don't dip even once on other nights, we do it twice tonight; so that (4) while we eat either sitting or reclining on other nights, we all recline tonight?
Yes, it's a run-on sentence, but that's the sense of it. The answer begins, "We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt..."
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Contrary to what Rivka said, while there are views that we have to wait for the Messiah to come and the Temple to fall from the sky, these ideas have very little basis to them. In fact, Maimonides writes that one of the things a person has to do in order to be recognized as the Messiah is rebuild the Temple. Which obviously can never happen if we wait for the Messiah to come first.
Without addressing the merits of either side, I would just note that Lisa represents the viewpoint of a small minority here. The mainstream opinion, on religious grounds, is that it would be wrong to try to rebuild the Temple prematurely. Most hold that this would still be the case even if the land were unused by anybody else.
(Though the political ramifications do indeed add to the other religious reasons. The claim that bulldozing another religion's holy site and potentially setting off World War III is "not a real problem" is... mind-boggling, to put it mildly.)
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