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Rivka, I left a message for my rav, but he hasn't gotten back yet, and it's time sensitive. I was wondering if you knew the answer.
Can I mush margerine into a baked potato on Shabbat if I'm doing it on my plate at the meal? It wouldn't be like preparation before the meal or anything. I know that you can do things like peeling oranges at the table to eat them, and it isn't borer, so I was wondering if you knew if doing it at the table made it not lisha.
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I think it depends on whether the potato is hot. If it is, then the butter will melt and be absorbed by the potato without grinding. No borer. I don't think there is any reason to be concern about that melacha. But I'm curious about what your rav says.
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"2) Strongly discouraging conversion helps ensure that all who do convert do so for love of God and Judaism, not for other reasons. Conversion cannot be undone, and it is FAR FAR better to be a non-Jew who keeps the Noachide laws than a Jew who has chosen to keep all 613 and then throws that away at a later date." So, if I was raised Jewish, but only kind of (both parents are Jewish but not really religious), had a bar mitzvah etc. Then I decided that I didn't really believe in all the stuff and stopped being a Jew, but I still follow the Noachide laws would I go to heaven?
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He hasn't had time to look it up, so he said he was paskening off the cuff that generally speaking, only borer has the exemption about it being at the time you're eating; not lush and not tochen.
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quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: "2) Strongly discouraging conversion helps ensure that all who do convert do so for love of God and Judaism, not for other reasons. Conversion cannot be undone, and it is FAR FAR better to be a non-Jew who keeps the Noachide laws than a Jew who has chosen to keep all 613 and then throws that away at a later date." So, if I was raised Jewish, but only kind of (both parents are Jewish but not really religious), had a bar mitzvah etc. Then I decided that I didn't really believe in all the stuff and stopped being a Jew, but I still follow the Noachide laws would I go to heaven?
We don't have heaven and hell as concepts the way other religions do. We say that all Jews have a place in the World to Come. Whether you have orchestra seats or you're stuck behind a pillar so far back that you need binoculars is another question.
Only God can weigh these things. If you mean does God think that's okay (for you to just keep the Noachide laws), the answer is obviously no. How not-okay is His deal.
The way Judaism looks at it, every time you transgress, you harm yourself, you harm the entire Jewish people, and you harm the very fabric of creation. And vice versa for every time you comply with God's commandments.
PS: You can't stop being a Jew. It's like Hotel California: "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."
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The irksome thing is that I wouldn't have even thought there was a question had I not learned it a couple of years ago in Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilcheta. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
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Yes, as do I simply because they are logical, but then there are laws which are not logical or part of the moral system that I was brought up in and are solely revealed laws that are part of the 613 commandments. That's where my problem lies.
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Please don't take this as a cheap shot, but how much have you learned about Judaism? Is your judgement of it based 100% on the moral system you were brought up in? Have you taken the opportunity to do some intensive learning, even for a short time? Just to make an informed decision, I mean.
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Well, my problem is that my Rabbi isn't the brightest fellow (he's a nice man, no offense to him intended) and he can't really answer any of my questions about Judaism beyond telling me to do something like "read Maimonides." A very intelligent Rabbi who's also a professor of theology visited and we had a wonderful discussion, but he had to go back to New York.
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Ouch. That's unfortunate. Have you considered taking a year off to learn in Israel? Not in one of the black hat places, obviously, but there are places like Brovenders where you can get a solid grounding without being pressured.
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Maybe you can find a rabbi who will be a better teacher to you. Just because he leads the congregation that your parents belong to doesn't mean that he has to be your rabbi.
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Oh no, Tante, he doesn't lead my parents congregation. He's just my Uni's main Rabbi, and he invites me to his house every Sabbath. I don't think there are any other Rabbis within a convenient distance (I lack a car).
Edit: Concerning taking a year of: unless I'm already confident that I have a deep interest in it, there's no way I'm spending a year in Israel studying a religion that is only truly mine in the cultural sense (from the internal perspective).
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quote:Originally posted by T:man: uh... What are difference between the christians and the jews?
This thread isn't for questions about Christianity. If you want to start a thread that's going to get locked fairly quickly, you could try starting one on that subject. But I refuse to address that question in a thread I'd rather not see locked.
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quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: Edit: Concerning taking a year of: unless I'm already confident that I have a deep interest in it, there's no way I'm spending a year in Israel studying a religion that is only truly mine in the cultural sense (from the internal perspective).
Hmm... I guess it's like the paradox of needing experience to get a job and needing a job to get experience.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: He hasn't had time to look it up, so he said he was paskening off the cuff that generally speaking, only borer has the exemption about it being at the time you're eating; not lush and not tochen.
That's certainly what I was taught. Tochen especially I know of no exceptions for.
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I know this thread isn't for me, but I'm curious and I'm not familiar with the terminology. In summary: mushing margarine OK or not?
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: I know this thread isn't for me, but I'm curious and I'm not familiar with the terminology. In summary: mushing margarine OK or not?
Mushing margarine isn't the issue. Mushing it up with potato on Shabbat if you're Jewish is. And no, it's not okay. It falls into the categories of both kneading and grinding.
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Just to illustrate the differences to MattP, I was told by my orthodox rabbi that it was ok if the potato was hot enough that it would just melt into the potato and be absorbed.
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I should ask my rav that, because that's not what I asked him. I was talking about mushing solid margerine into solid potato. If the margarine were to melt but stay separate from the potato, presumably there'd still be the problem of kneading, but the grinding problem would be gone.
I'm not sure I see how the margarine could melt in. Maybe if the potato was completely mushed up first... hmm.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I should ask my rav that, because that's not what I asked him. I was talking about mushing solid margerine into solid potato. If the margarine were to melt but stay separate from the potato, presumably there'd still be the problem of kneading, but the grinding problem would be gone.
I'm not sure I see how the margarine could melt in. Maybe if the potato was completely mushed up first... hmm.
If the potato is hot enough, the margarine will melt rather quickly just being set on top of the potatoe. If the potatoe has been mushed up completely first, it will be quickly absorbed by the potato but less so if the potato is more solid.
This discussion has made me wonder about what's acceptable for feeding children on the Sabbath. Can a parent cut up meat or other large pieces on a child's plate or before it's put on a child's plate? Can they mash up food to be fed to a very young child? Is there a distinction made between mashing up the child's food with a fork and grinding it in a blender? Would all the above have to be done before sun down on friday?
Are there any exceptions, for example if I (presuming I was Jewish) had invited friends to share my Sabbath meal and being childless had forgotten to grind up the child's food before hand, would it be acceptable to do it on the Sabbath or would I have to choose between Sabbath violation and letting the child go hungry.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I should ask my rav that, because that's not what I asked him. I was talking about mushing solid margerine into solid potato. If the margarine were to melt but stay separate from the potato, presumably there'd still be the problem of kneading, but the grinding problem would be gone.
I'm not sure I see how the margarine could melt in. Maybe if the potato was completely mushed up first... hmm.
This has made me curious. Would the same rules apply if you put gravy on the potatoes? Since gravy is already liquid, the grinding problem would be gone but wouldn't the kneading issue still be there if you mushed the gravy into the potatoe?
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After being intrigued by the margarine question, I noticed this post way back in the thread:
quote:In other words -- and I have had this confirmed by several rabbis now -- if you already own a wig whose origins you do not know IT IS FINE.
I had the impression that even accidentally violating a Jewish law was something a Jew should make every effort to avoid so I was a little surprised that in this case it was "When in doubt, don't worry about it." Can someone elaborate on how this situation is different or perhaps how my impression is incorrect?
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: If the potato is hot enough, the margarine will melt rather quickly just being set on top of the potato. If the potato has been mushed up completely first, it will be quickly absorbed by the potato but less so if the potato is more solid.
I've always just (incompletely, so the whole thing stays together) bisected the potato in both directions, and let the pat melt. Then again, I don't think I've ever done that on Shabbos. (Just because I don't generally have baked potatoes then, not for any religious reason.)
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: This discussion has made me wonder about what's acceptable for feeding children on the Sabbath. Can a parent cut up meat or other large pieces on a child's plate or before it's put on a child's plate? Can they mash up food to be fed to a very young child? Is there a distinction made between mashing up the child's food with a fork and grinding it in a blender? Would all the above have to be done before sun down on friday?
Are there any exceptions, for example if I (presuming I was Jewish) had invited friends to share my Sabbath meal and being childless had forgotten to grind up the child's food before hand, would it be acceptable to do it on the Sabbath or would I have to choose between Sabbath violation and letting the child go hungry.
Cutting up in large pieces is fine -- for the child or an adult. Mashing would generally have to be done before Shabbos, but I know there are cases where one can (when it is already Shabbos and there isn't much choice, but certainly not a priori) mash or kneed for an infant, but one must use a different manner than usual (and there are guidelines as to what that would mean).
The blender is electric, so that's just a non-starter ( ) to begin with. But yes, a fork would be preferable to a ricer. (In fact, the only way I could see a ricer being permitted at all on Shabbos would be if the food were for a seriously ill person.) The handle of the fork is better yet.
(BTW, while as host I would certainly try to accommodate guests, including their children, as a parent it is absolutely the parents' responsibility to bring food (if necessary) for their child, if the child is too young for regular table food.)
Oh, and cutting up meat is not considered grinding, even into small pieces. Only fruits, vegetables, grains, and other things that grow from the ground are an issue. So when making eggs and onions on Shabbos, you can mash the eggs as finely as you want. But the onions must be cut larger than usual.
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:In other words -- and I have had this confirmed by several rabbis now -- if you already own a wig whose origins you do not know IT IS FINE.
I had the impression that even accidentally violating a Jewish law was something a Jew should make every effort to avoid so I was a little surprised that in this case it was "When in doubt, don't worry about it." Can someone elaborate on how this situation is different or perhaps how my impression is incorrect?
The short answer is: it's complicated.
The long answer is, there is a general concept of a compound questionable being permitted in many cases. That is, if it is questionable whether a certain thing is an issue to begin with, and also questionable whether even if it IS an issue, whether said issue applies to a specific case. Most particularly when there are other mitigating factors (such as in this case, where hefsed merubah, a large financial loss, applies).
Regardless, there are quite a substantial number of rabbonim who agree that there is no problem even with hair known to be from India, for a variety of reasons. (Both technical and practical.)
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I don't have a question...at least not one I have to have answered right away. I just wanted to thank everyone involved in this thread for participating. I have learned a lot, and there is always something good to be said about a forum of discussion where you can ask questions in a non-confrontational setting.
So many times in the past, both here and IRL, I have seen people take offense when none was intended.....and just as many times (if not more) I have winced at the way some people ask questions about serious topics.
It is a pleasure to be involved in a conversation where everyone on BOTH sides of the conversation assume the best rather than the worst of the other person. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: This has made me curious. Would the same rules apply if you put gravy on the potatoes? Since gravy is already liquid, the grinding problem would be gone but wouldn't the kneading issue still be there if you mushed the gravy into the potatoe?
I'd imagine so. But I've never put gravy on baked potatoes. Not even on mashed potatoes. Not my thing.
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Not even on biscuits? Or chicken-fried steak? Or pan-fried chicken? Or hush puppies? Since Southern cooking doesn't exist without gravy, I can't imagine not eating it. Though I tend to serve non-Southern fare for Shabbat.
We switched to an Orthodox shul this spring and we're (very) slowly making the transition to being more frum. Andrew, who was raised in a secular household, attends shul once a month and holidays, which is a good start. I go every week with Aerin, who loves it.
My only problem is the candy. There's an actual secret stash of candy and they give it out to the kids like crazy. They also put bowls of jelly beans and lollipops on the tables at the luncheons. I have a few problems with this. First, we have a lot of toddlers who can reach the tables and the candy is very colorful and a major choking hazard. Second, we don't allow Aerin to eat candy and no one ever asks me if it's okay for her to have. Third, I strongly disagree that we need candy to make the kids like shul and help them learn to love Torah. I don't think we need to bribe children to love Torah. I also think it has the effect of communicating to children that Torah isn't worthy of being loved for itself, but needs candy to make it sacred.
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I let my children have candy on Shabbos. I have a big stash in a cabinet of a bunch of Halloween-sized candies. We have a little "party" after a little Shabbos shluffen, and everyone gets to pick a piece, even my husband and me. It's the only time they are allowed candy.
I think for my younger children, it helps them see Shabbos as a special day and makes them look forward to Shabbos. It also makes candy seem more like a special treat, rather than something we eat every day.
I don't see candy as having anything to do with making Shabbos sacred. Just like I usually make potato kugel for Shabbos. That's not because I think we need kugel to make Shabbos sacred. It's just another way to make the day a little more special for children who can't fully understand yet.
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quote:Not even on biscuits? Or chicken-fried steak?
What kind of gravy do you use for these? Whenever I've gotten them in the south, the biscuits have sawmill gravy (with milk), and chicken fried steak has a milk-based gravy (similar to sawmill but without the sausage or beef).
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Mrs.M, slowly is definitely the way to go. And I agree with you on the excessiveness of candy in many shuls. (I let my kids have some candy etc. on Shabbos, but the sheer quantity it is often possible to get in an hour's time in some shuls is astounding. At least Simchas Torah is only once a year!)
I agree with Minerva though -- it's not about "sacred"; it's about "special". Candy is the kid equivalent of basar v'dagim v'chol matamim. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: Not even on biscuits? Or chicken-fried steak? Or pan-fried chicken? Or hush puppies? Since Southern cooking doesn't exist without gravy, I can't imagine not eating it. Though I tend to serve non-Southern fare for Shabbat.
We switched to an Orthodox shul this spring and we're (very) slowly making the transition to being more frum. Andrew, who was raised in a secular household, attends shul once a month and holidays, which is a good start. I go every week with Aerin, who loves it.
My only problem is the candy. There's an actual secret stash of candy and they give it out to the kids like crazy. They also put bowls of jelly beans and lollipops on the tables at the luncheons. I have a few problems with this. First, we have a lot of toddlers who can reach the tables and the candy is very colorful and a major choking hazard. Second, we don't allow Aerin to eat candy and no one ever asks me if it's okay for her to have. Third, I strongly disagree that we need candy to make the kids like shul and help them learn to love Torah. I don't think we need to bribe children to love Torah. I also think it has the effect of communicating to children that Torah isn't worthy of being loved for itself, but needs candy to make it sacred.
We moderate Tova's candy intake. If she gets a bag of candy, she can have a little, and the rest goes into the pantry, where we dole it out on special occasions. It makes a great reward, and in moderation, it's fine.
She has a bad habit at kiddush of loading her plate up like crazy. Particularly if they have those little gefilte fish balls. So we try and be close by so we can "say when".
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: I don't see candy as having anything to do with making Shabbos sacred. Just like I usually make potato kugel for Shabbos. That's not because I think we need kugel to make Shabbos sacred. It's just another way to make the day a little more special for children who can't fully understand yet.
I make potato kugel once every month or two. For one thing, it's wicked fattening, and for another, I get a huge hug from Tova when she finds out I made it. Particularly if I make it with my special barbecue sauce meatballs.
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quote:Not even on biscuits? Or chicken-fried steak?
What kind of gravy do you use for these? Whenever I've gotten them in the south, the biscuits have sawmill gravy (with milk), and chicken fried steak has a milk-based gravy (similar to sawmill but without the sausage or beef).
I've never had chicken fried steak. I've always been curious about it, though.
I'll put gravy on meat that doesn't look moist enough, but I guess I was just never raised to put it on bread or potatoes.
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Gravy and butter (mushed in) on potatos for me, please! Butter and jam or honey on biscuit. No gravy!
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I'm not usually a chicken-fried steak person, but there's a place in Amarillo that has absolutely great food, including delectable chicken-fried steak (or at least there was 5 years ago.)
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(Oh, and I don't put gravy on biscuits, or fried chicken. But I love it on rice with the fried chicken. And it always goes on turkey, stuffing, and mashed potatoes, and sometimes veggies, at Thanksgiving, but that's usually the only time I eat it.)
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