posted
Well, I will look up all the references to it i can find.
Not that I don't believe you, but I like to do that anyway...
I was just posing a theory, and I might be wrong..
But I think something isn't quite right with this theory either. If I re-read it again (for the fourteenth time... ) with this in mind, maybe I will be able to figure out what it is that seems out of place with it to me.
posted
Or, more brutally Martin, he will fall in love with Brienne, and she will be burned while he is tied up and forced to watch, and THEN he will go to the wall.
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posted
I'm not sure about Jaime killing his sister except in defense of Tyrion or the rightful heir to the throne.
I think that he only defended Brienne out of a grudging respect for her prowess and her oath to protect him. He knows that Cersei and his father will leave him to his fate. Brienne has, in effect, become his good right hand. I look at this as further proof of his extreme self-love and I have a hard time liking him for loving himself.
In my eyes, he is somewhat redeemed by his love of Tyrion; yet this love doesn't prevent him from lying to Tyrion.
Jaime has done some character growth. I agree that he is beginning to admit to himself that he slayed the king only when his father's life was in immediate danger and that his act was not noble and this means that he knows that he must pay for the death of Rhaegar's wife and children.
I don't see Jaime going to the Wall. I see his life ending in a blaze of glory, fighting beside Brienne for Dany.
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I completely disagree. I think that he was torn between duty and sanity, and that he never made excuses for himself because he knew one way or another he was dammed.
What was he suppose to do, let Arys blow up the city?
Not that I am sympathetic to most of his actions...his lies to Tyrion are not even close to being the worse of them.
But he has begun to see nobility in Brieanne despite how he originally viewed her, and was painfully honest writing his own account in the log book of the Whitecloaks. I think he has deveolped, but not for the same reasons you do.
I think he will fall in love...no, I think he has already begun falling in love with her, and will come to love her, and that she will be the redemption of him....if she lives that long.
I don't think that Tyrion and Jamie will ever forgive each other...for the lies and the actions to one another cut to their core. I hope I am wrong, but it seems to be foreshadowed at the very end of SoS.
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I just finished! I can't believe that Martin escaped my radar for so long; he's a fantastic writer. I love the continual character development. Everytime I thought I had someone pegged (like Jamie) Martin shows another side of them.
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I haven't found any of his other novels to be up to the quality of ASOIAF, although they've all been quite good. Fevre Dream is definitely worth reading. The Wildcard Mosaic novels are pretty spotty, as you'd expect with that many different writers collaborating (each author is responsible for their own character or characters, and write chapters revolving around that character. Martin, when he's not writing chapters of his own, knits them together into a coherent whole), but fun. I haven't read Armegaddon Rag, but I've been eyeing it at a used bookstore for a month or so now. Tuf Voyaging, which is a collection of short stories involving the exploits of a character named Havland Tuf (I probably have that first name misspelled) has been the only major disappointment, and even that is an interesting disappointment.
His short stories are generally phenomenal. In fact, if it weren't for ASOIAF, I'd say that his best work was in short form. Pick up a copy of one of his collections and you won't be sorry. Even the really early stuff collected in George R. R. Martin: A Retrospective is pretty entertaining.
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See, I think killing Cersei will be part of his redemption. I think he deeply hates her for her manipulation of him, and the fact that she never returned the love and loyalty that he had for her. I think he realizes what an evil person she is, and recognizes that she has ruled his life, and that he doesn't like where his life has taken him. Refusing to be her Hand is part of the proces that I think will eventually lead to him killing her. Not necessarily in defense of someone else (though that will likely be the catalyst) but for himself.
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posted
I read the first issue of it, but given that it was pretty much completely faithful to the original, and only covered about the first 5 pages of the novella, I thought that I'd just save myself a bunch of money and reread one of the copies of the story that I've already got in various books at home. When the whole thing is done and it's been published as a graphic novel, though, I might get it.
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The whole thing IS done and published as a graphic novel. I bought it as individual issues, but it's already on the stands as a trade paperback.
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Belle, I agree that Jaime will have a more permanent falling out with Cersei, but I think it is Dead Kat who will kill her.
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posted
I love these books and only recently finished. I'm notoriously bad at predicting future events after only one read because I miss alot in my mad dash to find out "what happens next" but I agree with the ideas of Jamie and Brieanne having a more intimate relationship. I really hated the idea of my liking Jamie the more I read him but it's imposible not to. He has grown and seen a lot of the errors of his behavior and I agree that he will see his sister as the root to many of his previous shortcomings. SHe has controlled him as much as she has anyone else and I doubt she really loves anyone other than herslef. He's beginning to see this and I love that he is putting himself in the honorable role of Captain of the royal guard first and son of the Lannister's second. I have no real predications other than I see Cersei going down in a big way and Jamie having something to do with it, either he does it himself or steps aside and does nothing to stop it. I also see a furthering of the relationship between Brieanne and Jamie. I just can't wait for AFFC to come out and see where these intensly awesome characters all go and what they do to eachother.
I usually don't like to predict, but with GRRM, I do, because he can still pull a surprise move. on another thread, I discussed my horror and agony that Ned ACTUALLY had his head chopped off. I thought, no way, he will be saved any second now, he is a very important (and sexy as all get-out)character. I am still a bit miffed at George for that.
Edit: Also, I hardly ever re=read a book, but I have been reaidng Book one over again. It is amazing to read again, because you can see all the little hints of things to come. I wonder if he has/had the plot planned, or if it comes to him as he writes.
[ August 23, 2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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In re-reading the first book, I noticed that Tyrion, when he first meets Jon, does this amazing flip off a wall. It makes him seem very agile, yet in the following story, he is written as stiff and a bit clumsy.
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Elizabeth - yea, I was totally floored when Ned actually died. But I guess that was just the beginning for Martin and I have since gotten used to the idea of some of my favorite Characters getting bumped off. I was ticked about ned but nearly flipped out when Rob got it at the Twins. I wasn't nearly as upset about Kat... I'm actually more ticked that she had the 'ol fire breahted back into her, but there are definately some cool revenge threads availale with her back in the picture. And I just have to say that by not re-reading books you are definately doing yourself a diservice. If a book was good once it's usually better the second time, IMHO.
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Beatnix, I just love the thrill of the first read too much. I like it to stay in my memory that way.
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me too. But I always miss so much and I love going back and filling in all the gaps. It's like the Usual Suspects. The first time I watched that it was so awesome and you can never get back the moment you realize who Kisar Sosei is but the second time through was just as awesome but just in diferent ways.
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posted
I am finding that I can't really get into any other book anyway, right now, so I just started to read this again. It really is just as good the second time.
I gave my friends the books to read, and she was so upset it was over that she kept trying to order the fourth book on Amazon, even though she knew it wasnt finished. Sort of like the three year-old's magical thinking.
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quote: I doubt she really loves anyone other than herslef
I would argue that Circei honestly does love her children. I think that they're the only people other than herself that she does love completely (and even then, she isn't above using them to further her own ends. She just sees her ends and theirs as coinciding). Do you think that she's completely without love for Jamie, throughout the series so far? I think that that love is over, but I suspect that it was once there. I don't think that he's always been her pawn.
Beatnix, why did it anger you when Kat was resurrected? It filled me with a cold dread, but one that I kind of enjoyed experiencing. I can't wait to see what he does with Kat in the coming book(s).
I have to say, one of the few plotlines that I find relatively dull is the one involving Davos. I expect that we're going to be seeing a lot more of him, Stannis, and Milisandre (sp?) in AFFC, but I'm not particularly looking forward to it. The characters I'm most interested in following are Arya, Bran, Jon, Sam, and Dany. I'm looking forward to the rest, but those are the ones that hold me on the edge of my chair in every chapter that is devoted to them (Dany the least of these, but she still counts).
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posted
I kind of see her love for Jmaie as an extension of her love of herself. I mean , he looks just like her. But I mean the whole relationship is pretty wacked out so.. Who's to say.
As far as Kat... I don't know... She just really started to drive me nuts with her whining and selfpity. I guess I meant to say that I wasn't all that upset to see her go, not like I was when Rob got run threw. But I totally agree that there are some really nasty posibilities in the future for her.
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posted
Hmmm. I wonder if he meant for us to start disliking Kat. I definitely disliked her more and more as the books went on. She reminds me of one of those people who act as if their children are the only children on earth. I remember going over to kids' houses when I was little, and feeling so uncomfortable with parents like that. Mine always bent over backwards to make other children feel welcome.
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posted
OK, like I said I read them quick and only once, why do you think Davos was sacrificed? and When was that?
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Well, golly, book 3, I think. Davos comes back, finds out they are going to sacrifice the boy. He rescues the boy. Stannis and Melisandre find out and call him "into the office." They are not angry with him at all.
Later, when Stannis saves the Wall, Davos is not with him. They keep mentioning the sacrifice as needing someone pure of heart. Davos does follow Stannis almost without question, so grateful for him making him a knight. We never see Davos after this. (Right? Unless I missed something)
So, I inferred that he was the sacrifice.
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posted
Ok, I see where you're coming from with that idea. Hmm... just another little bit I seemed to have missed. I realy need to start reading them again. Unfortunately I start school tomorrow and have been stupid busy getting my classroom ready to go and haven't had time.
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posted
wait... a spoiler on the spoiler thread? No way!!!
He very well could be or not, it is Martin we're talking about, but I lean to thinking he's probably alive as well. But Stannis is definately blinded enough by Melisandre to wack his most loyal and truthful knight. Man I love how Martin gives nothing away and has all of freaks guessing like mad.
Editted after reading your edit
(you know he's in AFFC because of excerpts or just because? I have'nt read anything from AFFC so I wouldn't know.)
posted
The Dragons of Daragonstone were never woken...the summons to the wall came and interuppted them discussing what to do with Davos.
Stannis WAS very pissed, but when Davos told him what he had done, and his unselfish reasons for doing so, Stannis realizes that Davos may have saved him despite his own willingness to sacrifice Edric Storm.
If the dragon hasn't been woken yet, then no sacrifice has been made....and it would take the "blood of the King" to wake it, IIRC, which is why Storm was the only choice Misslendre aws willing to acccept.
posted
I'm still unsure whether or not I believe anything would have happened had they sacrificed Storm. It seems obvious to me that the comet was a sign for Daenerys and there for Stannis won't be able to call forth anything because he's not the prophesised person. (excuse my spelling... I suck)
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posted
I began disliking Cat the moment the she told Jon it should have been him that fell.
I admire Cat - I admired her love and devotion to Ned and her children, I admired her intelligence - obviously she knew that Rob's marriage was a bad idea, and she knew him sending Grey Wind away was a bad idea.
But despite the pain she felt when Ned betrayed her (if he did - I am in the camp that believes Jon is Lyanna's son), for her to harbor hatred for the boy, who did nothing to deserve that hatred, is inexcusable to me. Not only that, I could understand her having resentment for Jon in her heart, but to say that to him - indefensible in my book.
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posted
Belle, I could have written that exact post. I wouldn't have needed to have changed a word--that sums up *exactly* how I feel, on all points.
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Do you think she was really pained when Ned (supposedly) betrayed her? I just think she was pissed as all get out. Ned wasn't who she was set to marry, and she didn't really get a chance to know him at all before he left to fight again after their wedding. Though she obviously came to love Ned, I think she just resented what other people thought about him fathering a bastard.
posted
I don't quite think that that was it. Kat wasn't the greatest person in Westros, but she wasn't that shallow either. I think that what bothered her about the whole thing was the affection that Ned continued to show toward Jon, which in turn, to her, signified a level of caring about Jon's mother. If Jon had just been Ned's bastard-get from some whore that he cared nothing for (the woman, that is), I don't think Kat would have minded particularly. As she came more to care about Ned, though, this (to her) obvious sign of dedication to another woman became more and more painful. That was my take on it, anyway.
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posted
I've got to say it. The sum of the negative things being said about Kat in this thread is weirding me out. Doesn't the Stark kids' mother's name start with a "C"?
quote: Do you think she was really pained when Ned (supposedly) betrayed her? I just think she was pissed as all get out. Ned wasn't who she was set to marry, and she didn't really get a chance to know him at all before he left to fight again after their wedding. Though she obviously came to love Ned, I think she just resented what other people thought about him fathering a bastard.
space opera
Personally I don't think she was all that pissed, or upset, I think she was insulted. Cat is a proud person, and thats why she does like Jon.
A Shes too dumb to realize his awesomness (best character in book in my opinion)
B She sees him as a perosnal insult.
My personal biggest grudges against GRRM are in order form biggest to smallest
1. Sansa 2. The Death of Robb 3. Not Enough Beric Dondarrion, Lighting Lord
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posted
Well at least she can't say anything nasty to him again. Oh, theory. If the Others lead armies of the dead, and the red priests are rasing people from the dead, can the red priests cause the undead armies of the others to return to life if they are gathered in sufficient numbers (of red priests)? Anyone think thats possible?
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posted
That's an interesting theory Drogo. I kind of doubt it, but it's an interesting theory nonetheless.
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posted
Be kindof fun to see all the undea suddenly go, what the hell is going on, why am I here fighting for the enemies of mankind? And the run off to hide insome cave and be re-slaughtered by Others.
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