posted
Since this thread was ghost-bumped, I may as well gloat that I finally got my WorldCon membership and am getting to hang out with GRRM (I'm volunteering/hanging out with his fan club-of-sorts. Yeah, I'm a nerd) at NoreasCon in September.
So I'll probably try and commando my way into his hotel room and sneak a peek at some manuscript pages.
So who wants to touch me?
I SAID WHO WANTS TO TOUCH ME?!?!Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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He'll be writer-in-residence week after next here at Odyssey and he'll be critiquing some of MY work. Okay, so it's not really a gloat; it's more of a panicked 'why am I in the computer lab on Hatrack instead of working on my piece??'. A cry for help even.
But still. I get to work with him :-)
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Here's something fun -- a book review of A Game of Thrones from when it first came out (found it at one of the websites featuring a GRRM interview):
quote:this work is stodgy. A hundred pages have passed before the various groups move on to their next endeavours There is no way that this book needed to be as long as it is, and it contains too much over-worded, ambiguous, bad writing.
I'm really glad I'm not that reviewer Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Yeah, the guy missed the boat. Oddly enough, though, this is how a good friend of mine felt after reading about 100 pages of it... He went on and on about the purple prose, excessive use of needless descriptors, etc. (he is a fan of Hemingway's "cut the fat" school of writing?). Anyway, I thought he would give the books back to me, the rest unread.
That was a month ago. He is now almost done with Storm and is salivating for more. He is a huge history buff and LOVES how well researched it is, how throrough the world is that Martin created and loves every little detail that Martin gives us. So there! It may take some a while, but eventually they get it. I wonder if this reviewer ever did?
posted
FINALLY! I'm done! Yes, that is where I have been. Mourning my broken computer and reading the ASOIAF books.
Wow.
I have so many things I want to say but I will get right to the point.
Eddie's theory that Arya will eventually become an assassin. No chance. You don't really think that Martin will let her live that long, do you?
Yes, Ned dying nearly put me over the edge but not as much as hearing what happened to his sword. Xavier assures me that Brienne will do some noteable things with the part of it she is now in possession of, (like save a Stark with it) but I am still not a happy camper.
Forgive me, love, (Xavier) but the way you have defended Sansa in this thread makes me want to roll my eyes. Claiming that her naivate is all due the fact that she is young. No. Arya is smart enough to make strong willed decisions but her older sister is a wimp. Admit it.
Now, I love the girl, but she is in serious need of balls. I know that with all the things Martin has put her through she is going to toughen up (at least I hope so). With all that said, the scene of her in the snow was very touching and you were right, I felt sorry for her after reading that. Poor girl was meant to live a pampered life in a castle where she could be a little bird by reciting her "Please" and "Thank you's" with a flawless curtsy. It is unfortunate that her fate may lay elsewhere.
So many more things to add. I'll be back.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
ack! Valentine, please, no spoilers about books that haven't been published yet! (I know, that was a very general one, but can you edit your post to get rid of it? Thanks...)
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
There's a difference though between spoilers about what's already been published, and spoilers about what hasn't been published yet.
I'm happy to read any excerpts from A Feast for Crows that're available. BUT: I want to read them myself, and I don't want to hear any spoilers from stuff that HASN'T been published, because that'll, well, SPOIL the fun of actually reading them myself...
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Not going to edit my post. The thing about Brienne was just Xavier and I throwing out some possible ideas of where the story might go, not a future plot gotten off of a spoiler site. Not to mention, what is the point of this thread if not to discuss exactly those things: spoilers?
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Talking about what MIGHT happen IS a part of this thread, but that's not a spoiler, that's just SPECULATION. Speculation is fun and wholesome... but, again, there's a difference of spoilers for what's already been published (and what everyone has had a chance to read)... and the spoiler for something that HASN'T been published yet. If you want to talk about spoilers for not-yet-published stuff, please do it in a different thread. I like to read the surprises as they actually happen, and not have them told to me...
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I was re-reading Storm of Swords yesterday when it occurred to me that Richard Littlefinger is Heathcliff, and Catelyn is (loosely) his Catherine. It's like Wuthering Heights, only with the volume turned way up.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
You don't think? He's a young, largely penniless man without a title who's in love with a landed noble. Her father treats him like a servant. Her sister dotes on him, and she claims to love him more than anything. But while he goes off to make his fortune in the big city, she marries for money and power. He comes back, then methodically sets to destroying the lives of the people he believed "wronged" him. He also entraps and manipulates her daughter, marries her sister to gain the same estate where he was once humiliated, and so on. (It's worth noting that Littlefinger's estate in the Fingers is very close to the Grange in its description.)
Minor details are changed, of course, but he strikes me as a very Heathcliffy guy.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: Talking about what MIGHT happen IS a part of this thread, but that's not a spoiler, that's just SPECULATION. Speculation is fun and wholesome... but, again, there's a difference of spoilers for what's already been published (and what everyone has had a chance to read)... and the spoiler for something that HASN'T been published yet.
Maybe a new category? A SPOICULATION? Posts: 431 | Registered: Oct 2003
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OK, I think that the Tyrion-Jaime switch is very poignant. I think the moment when Jaime frees Tyrion in the cell is key. It is the point where they both are the same. Both are maimed, both are changing. Tyrion has been good. Tricky, but good. Jaime has been bad, but is starting to have/show more of a conscience. Once Jaime tells Tyrion about Tysha, it all changes. Tyrion snaps into the villain role, and Jaime(I assume) into a hero role.
I just thought that scene was very well done.
OK, back to reading the rest of this thread. Sorry if this point has been made.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Also, I disagree with Sansa being a dolt. I think she is going to become one cagey young gal. There was a scene at the Fingers when Littlefinger is telling her about the game of thrones. Something sort of changed in her. I can't remember exactly why i thought that, but I think Littlefinger will become her mentor, and she will have a big part to play in the plotting.
And, Tom, I totally see th Heathcliff thing.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I don't know if Jaime started out horrendous...just our interpretation of him was bad. He seems himself as the hero who destroyed the kingdom's worst enemy... the Mad King Aerys. Everyone else sees him as the Kingslayer. I think it is all perception. Tyrion on the other hand sees himself in a more honest light and knows he is a ruthless little bugger who is always underestimated for his value. I think both are free to do new things, though, now that Father Tywin is out of the picture. I think all three sibilngs are going to significantly change now that they are out of his shadow.
posted
As a side note, I have NEVER been able to slog through Wuthering Heights. I thougt I was a romantic, but it wasn't worth it at all. I was so irritated with the characters! In Song, Littlefinger interests me none at all.
Jaime, though, is fascinating.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I think the reason most people see Jaime as "bad" at the begining has less to do with killing Aerys and more to do with throwing Bran out the window.
Posts: 96 | Registered: Jun 2001
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There is that. But still, we knew him as that but the characters in the book still saw Jaime as a villain long before the Bran thing and long after it when most didn't know that it happeened. From our perception, though, that is true.
posted
Once you reach the third book, I thought it was abundantly clear Jaime was never a villain at all -- the most evil thing he's done seems to be lying to Tyrion about Tasha (?).
As for Tyrion, he's no villain, either. He tries to screw with his brother's head at the end of the third book, but that's understandable revenge -- he's probably a little insane for the moment, but that won't last. I'll be interested in seeing where he goes. Probably to the clans.
Actually, I'm not entirely sure there are any villains, a point I (and others here) have long stressed. Possibly unthinking brutes like Gregor and the Brave Companions, but beyond them...
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Lalo:"the most evil thing he's done seems to be lying to Tyrion about Tasha (?)."
Um, what about pushing Bran off the side of the castle? You can't have forgotten, since that was the subject of some of the most recent posts. So how is that less evil?
At some point, Jaime and Catelyn are going to face off over Bran's fall, and by that point, we'll be totally on Jaime's side and will be totally freaked out by Catelyn. Yet Catelyn will be in the right.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Interestin, RNG. I definitely came to dislike Catelyn more and more throughout the story. I never forgave her for her treatment of Jon, and it went downhill from there.
And as for the sexy discussion? There is no contest, of course. Eddard Stark is the single sexiest male character I have read in a long time. Even though he is dead, I still get a flutter when one of the characters mentions his name.
Jaime Schmaime. And I will never forgive HIM for the CASUAL way he threw Bran out the window. And how about Ned's guards, and Ned himself? Can you honestly say he was a nice guy, Lalo? He is still responsible for his actions, no matter what his childhood waslike and no matter how much supposed power over him Cersei had.
My prediction is that he will fall in love with Brienne. I MIGHT forgive him then.
[ July 19, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I am liking Catelyn less and less, as well. She reminds me of what I think Sansa will grow into though I am not sure specifically why. I think Catelyn and Cersei will switch in terms of who we as readers are going to find more sympathetic. I think all of Tywin's kids are much more interesting as we get to know them and find that they have harsher reputations than they actually earn. Now that Tywin is gone, I think like the other two she is going to come out of her shell even more and will grow up a bit (she is fairly childlike in a lot of ways...having Daddy around telling her what to do doesn't help that).
I also agree that no one person can have "villain" attached to their name but some are more evil than others. Just when you think a person might fit that title, they do something that makes you re-think that position. The most recent was Melisandre...I totally pegged her for nasty goods (and in many ways, she still is) but now that I see her coming into her own with the quest to destroy The Other (and the Others), it makes me question my original ideas on her. Gah! Get that dang new book out now! Now, I tells ya!
quote:Um, what about pushing Bran off the side of the castle? You can't have forgotten, since that was the subject of some of the most recent posts. So how is that less evil?
Admittedly, I thought of that after pushing "add reply." But even then, he did it in the name of love, not to become the Starks' arch-nemesis. It's an evil action, but not done for malicious reasons, and I don't think it makes Jaime a villain of the story.
Similarly, with Elizabeth's point about Ned's guards, Jaime was acting on behalf of his brother and his family's honor. A highborn Lannister had been kidnapped -- the lives of a few guardsmen are nothing compared to that kind of offense. Or so it runs.
And, er, Kwea? Cersei didn't kill Robert. Lysa did, under instructions from Littlefinger. She's arguably the most malicious character in the novel, but you can't pin that one on her -- at worst, she's petty and cunning and vicious, especially as regards her brother, but don't expect that impression to last long. From that teaser Martin gave us at the end of <i>Storm</i>, I expect she'll have delusions of grandeur, maybe ambitions she can't fulfill. I don't expect her to die in the next book, given that there are few who can replace her -- she's effectively the only Lannister out for power, at least in terms of aggressive dominance. Jaime's removed himself from the game and Tyrion, while he'll probably seek revenge, is effectively disqualified from ruling his House, much less the kingdom.
I can't wait for Jon and Daen to meet.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: At some point, Jaime and Catelyn are going to face off over Bran's fall, and by that point, we'll be totally on Jaime's side and will be totally freaked out by Catelyn. Yet Catelyn will be in the right.
It will be interesting to see if she has regained the power of speech in AFFC.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
She had a hand in it as well. She was worried that Lancel would tell someone about Roberts wine, remember. I think it was in the teaser chapter as well, unless I am mistaken...but I don't think I am.
At the very least she was assisting..
I agree that Lyssa is a horrible character, very selfish and coniving...just not as much as Littlefinger.
I think most of the villains in this series are more amoral than immoral. No evil character (or at least not many) thinks of themselves as evil...they always have a good reason for their actions. Hell, even in real life people do that...Hitler had his reasons, and Mussolini, and....well, you get my idea, anyway...
Jamie knowingly pushed a child out a window trying to kill him. That is not the act of a "misguided" person. Or it is, but that doesn't absolve him from responsibility for his actions. One of the things that I like is that there is a lot of gray characters, characters that could be both.
That doesn't mean that there aren't any villains though.
I think Cersi is one of the worst....her "love" of Jeoffery is so misguided that it wrecks the kingdom and brings war down on everyone. She knows that he isn't really the heir, and not Roberts, but her own selfish desire to rule (and her "love" for her brother) threaten to kill the whole kingdom. She always has an excuse, but it doesn't matter....she places her own desires above the rule of law and above the well being of the kingdom. That is a pretty clear cut villain to me.....at least for now...
posted
Another thing. I do not think that Cersei did kill Ned Stark through Joffrey. I think Littlefinger was behind that as well.
Does anyone know WHEN the new novel is coming out? This is terrible. I am going to end up unable to read anything for ages.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I've got to argue with something that Eddie brought up on the first page. He said:
quote: That's Martin's strongest point. Just as in real life, there are no actually evil people, as much as we'd all like to believe there are -- though there are certainly people who do evil things in the name of their cause, few go home and twirl their mustache, plotting which virgin to put in front of a moving train next. Bush is corrupt and incompetent, not evil.
I've got to say that if several of these people aren't evil then the word has no meaning at all. Evil people don't have to sit around planning mayhem all day. Evil people simply have to be selfish enough that they will serve their own pleasure/comfort at huge expense to others. It is like making a family lose their home so you can pocket an extra fifty cents.
Take Gregor Clegane for example. There is one scene, recounted by one of his lackeys, in which Gregor rapes a peasant girl simply because her father asks Gregor to tell his men to leave his daughter alone. He also kills the man's son in the same scene.
How can you possibly say that that is not evil?
Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Ack! Heh, crap, it's getting fuzzy in my head.
My bad, Kwea, Lysa killed <i>Arryn</i>, not Robert. Yeesh. How did I get that confused? Who am I? Where are my pants?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Elizabeth...er...I think this is from pre-release materials, right? IIRC, this was out of bounds for this discussion for those of us not interested in getting spoilers for the book that isn't out yet!
I am SO sorry! I read the chapter at the end of A Storm of Swords, and I just incorporated it into the rest of the story. I will delete my post.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Oh, sure, fine. I finally finish Book 3, and am ready for the spoiler thread, and everyone else abandons it. Wahhh.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote: Yes, I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.-Tyroin to Jon
I was reading these books again when I came across this quote. My thought was, maybe, however unlikely, Jon is the son of Ed and Lyanna. They went and pulled a Jamie and Cersei on us. If Dany is the fire, she's pure fire being the daughter of two Targyreons. Maybe Jon is then pure ice being the son of two Starks. I know it's highly unlikely. It just popped into my head while reading. ?
Posts: 219 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I still stand by the Rhaegar/Lyanna parentage for Jon. I can't see Ned being as base as the Lannisters and Targaryens. I think the chapter where the Reed kids tell Bran the story about the Mystery Knight and so on tells the story pretty clearly. But it is an interesting idea, the sibling on sibling action. It would make sense why Cate treats Jon with more contempt than people usually treat bastards. My wonder if, if the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing or Ned/Lyanna thing is true...either way...does Cate know the REAL story? If not, would only Howland Reed (great name for Blues singer, I would think) be the only one alive who knows of it?
Here is a question I wonder about, speaking of the Reeds. What do people think about the "moving castle" thing? Literal? Magical? Practical? No castle but simply a roving camp in the swamp? I am assuming we will be meeting Reed in the next book (I hope so, at any rate). Though to be honest, I don't know in what context. Bran and the Reeds are heading north. Cate and the Lightening Lord are going to be busy killing the zillion Freys one by one. Pretty much the "war" part of the book is over, now that there are too few kings vying for the crown.
quote:If not, would only Howland Reed (great name for Blues singer, I would think) be the only one alive who knows of it?
If Jon is, indeed, the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (which I think he is), then I think Wylla (Jon's wet nurse and presumably Lyanna's midwife) would know the truth, as I assume she would've been present at the Tower of Joy during the birth.
I recently heard a theory that Barristan Selmy might know the truth, and I like that idea, too.
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