quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Christine, Voldemort didn't know that he had put part of himself in Harry as a horcrux, did he? So in his mind, he had made 7 horcruxes, which was for him the proper number.
Actually, he intended to make 6 Horcruxes, which would yield 7 pieces. Harry was the mistaken 8th fragment. And yes, it probably did weaken him.
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posted
I'm curious as to thoughts on Pettigrew's death. For me, it was blatantly obvious that it was a result of the life debt owed to Harry via Harry's refusal to let Wormtail be killed in PoA. Based on various discussions, I appear to be alone in this consideration.
posted
Wonderful book and as far as I'm concerned a durn near perfect ending to the series. I liked that Harry lived but was not only willing to die, but followed through and would have died were it not for his opportunity to choose to go back. I could have done without the epilogue, but figured that it was probably necessary to keep some people from screaming for 'the end of the story'.
The only part that seemed contrived at all was when Voldemort called for the Sorting Hat. Which just happened to yeild exactly what Neville needed to kill Nagini.
Other than that, it was pretty much a perfect end to the series, which is better than I expected, honestly. I expected to be a little disappointed, because of all the build up. How could it possibly measure up to the expectations built for it? But Rowling did it, and did it beautifully. I'm looking forward to whatever she writes in the future.
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quote:I'm curious as to thoughts on Pettigrew's death. For me, it was blatantly obvious that it was a result of the life debt owed to Harry via Harry's refusal to let Wormtail be killed in PoA.
What else would it be?
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Carrie, I figured that the hand reacted as it did because Pettigrew was acting contrary to Voldemort's interests. The life debt was paid with the decision and act to let Harry go rather than alert the Death Eaters of his escape. Pettigrew died because he followed a sadistic, cruel leader, IMO, not because he had to 'pay' the life debt.
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Was it just me, or was anyone else scared that Rowling was gonna pull a Wizard of Oz when Harry wakes up after getting killed?
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quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: I find it odd that anybody would think that the book is in any way dirtied because of the similarities, or that it would in any way affect one's enjoyment of the book.
Lighten up.
Geeez. Who said "dirtied"? I found it annoying because I consider it a cliche. And it's an emphatically-not-mine cliche to boot. But it didn't "dirty" anything. You're reading a lot into what I and others said, I think. Perhaps you should lighten up?
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
quote:Did Umbridge pay a price?
Did anybody but me assume that leaving her unconscious in a room full of Dementors resulted in her receiving the "kiss?"
One can only hope.
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: So, his least favorite teacher dies while staring lovingly into his eyes while probably thinking about his mom.
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: Poor Snape. I love Snape. Perhaps more now that he's basically Alan Rickman in my mind. Snape rocks.
Agreed 100%!
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: Actually, he intended to make 6 Horcruxes, which would yield 7 pieces. Harry was the mistaken 8th fragment. And yes, it probably did weaken him.
My impression was that it was circular. The damage he had done to his soul weakened it so much that the shock of the rebounding curse caused an additional tear/horcrux. Additionally, since each tear/horcrux weakened his soul, this had the effect of weakening him even more than the 6 he had intended.
Also, it meant that Rowling could cheat.
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I'm curious as to thoughts on Pettigrew's death. For me, it was blatantly obvious that it was a result of the life debt owed to Harry via Harry's refusal to let Wormtail be killed in PoA. Based on various discussions, I appear to be alone in this consideration.
That was my take as well.
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posted
I don't know....I think the people finding Christian elements are off. Harry's 17, not 33. Also, his parents are murdered, and he is raised by people who hate him.
OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
Hmmm...yeah, no, I don't see it.
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quote: Huh? Isn't Merope Voldemort's mom? She was a witch.
Sorry Christine, just got back to the computer. Yes, she was a witch, but she didn't do magic until she went after Tom Riddle, Sr. They thought she might have been a squib. It seems like it may have been related to her depression/piteous existence. Remember how Tonks started to suck at magic when she got all depressed?
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quote:Originally posted by steven: OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
posted
I'm not willing to believe Merope was a squib just because her father said so. I know way back when JK did say she was including that, and mugglenet assumed that it hadn't happened, though that might be what Rowling meant. It's very hard to tell.
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edit: I'm not contending that Merope was a squib who suddenly sprouted magic. I'm saying she clearly wasn't a squib, but for reasons not fully comprehended by us, she didn't do any magic until she was an adult.
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posted
This is what I get for not enough sleep. JK Rowling did say that someone would perform magic, Christine didn't get caught up in a rumor.
I think lots of people assumed that it was Merope because her father called her a filthy squib. I do think it's possible that Marvalo decided not to send his kids to Hogwarts and thus she'd never done magic. It's so hard to tell. I figure she'll be in an interview within the next week or two saying who the two extras she killed and the person she saved were.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
I think he ment the Jewish Community in Biblical times. The pharisees.
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posted
Previous to love potion-ing Tom Riddle, or whatever she did, Merope made a cooking pot shoot across a room causing it to split in half. Bottom of page 205 in Half-Blood Prince. It's entirely possible that squibs are capable of doing that sort of thing, but if that's the case I'd say it's cutting a pretty fine line between who is truly magical and who is not.
With that said, I still don't doubt that she was the one who discovered magic later in life...that is, if Rowling didn't cut out the character in question.
My thoughts on Deathly Hallows, etc:
For whatever reason, I have had an affinity for Snape since book one, which had added gravity to every scene/event involving him since then. Every mean thing he did seemed rather petty and superficial while every good thing he did was quietly heroic. To me, that implied he was hiding something much deeper, tortured even, in his personality. After book six I felt convinced that Lily had been the object of his affection. I couldn't think of anything else that completed the puzzle more smoothly.
I'm not much of a crier, but all the Snape stuff in the latter half of the book made me bawl. None of the other deaths affected me nearly as much as his did. I can understand how the desire to look at Harry's eyes in the end could be creepy, but I don't see it that way. He had sacrificed most of his time, energy, life, towards helping and protecting Harry. He died with the knowledge that Dumbledore had used him, Harry was meant to die young anyway, and Harry could choose to never look at those memories. I don't find it repulsive that he requested of Harry one last small comfort. I tend to think his 'hots' for Lily was largely intellectual and genial. They were childhood friends, both academically focused, and brilliant at Potions. And once she was dead and gone he never pursued any other relationship even though he was still quite young at the time. He was a selfish guy, yes, but selfish for moderately honorable reasons.
Nearly half my life has been spent as part of 'Potterdom', liking Snape, so I suppose I'm biased. But the Lily and Snape story is what leaves the most powerfully resounding memory for me when it comes to the complete arc of all the books. Maybe because I've lost childhood friends. I don't know. *shrug*
All in all, I loved the final installment. I had no qualms whatsoever with anything. Even the lightness and brevity of the epilogue didn't bother me. As an afterthought I almost think Rowling added it so that she could have Harry make a more personal statement about Snape. Someone had mentioned previously in the thread about Harry's reaction to Snape's memories being less than impactful. His acknowledgement of Snape in the final discussion with Voldy was to an audience...dramatic. Speaking quietly to his son after 19 years about Snape probably being the bravest man he ever knew seems a much stronger and heartfelt recognition.
Edit: Oh yeah, and Lily's letter was the first bit I cried heavily for. Cried heavily as in uncontrollable sobbing. Yeesh. That was hard to read.
posted
I, too, thought the epilogue was mostly there to show how much of an impact Snape's death really had on Harry. It was understated previously, but I teared up when I read the line when Harry told Albus that Snape was possibly the bravest man he ever knew.
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Geez guys. Why ya gotta go and have all the good discussions before I'm finished reading?
I loved it. Definitely my favorite of the seven. Snape, Dumbledore, Neville, Ginny and Harry, Hermione and Ron, the Hallows, the horcruxes, the epilogue - I loved it all. I just can't believe it's actually over.
There is one thing I'm a bit confused about. I'm going to read back over it again, but maybe someone else can explain in the meantime. Okay, so I get how ownership of the Elder Wand transferred from Draco to Harry, but I think I missed how it got to Draco in the first place. Is it simply because it was Draco's intention to kill Dumbledore?
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I haven't read that far yet (and have skipped most of this thread) but I just want to say I'm up to the point of the fall of the Government. This is getting great! I'm totally wondering what this will mean for not just the magic using people but also Humanity at large. With the coup successful, the Minister dead, and his ruling Cabinet replaced or under mind control that means the military might of the Ministry is now lost and in fact turned against the forces of good. I think the fall of the Ministry is more horrible than any fall of Hogwarts could be, as Hogwarts might stand as a fortress it does not have the access to all the wizarding community nor the power to track the entire population like the Government. The Order of the Pheonix and other Hogwart's people should have allied themselves with the Ministry, even with its corruption, since the alternative is so much more horrible.
What we have now is the Dark Lord in command of all the powers of the Ministry and the people who can resist will be trapped in small bubbles around their homes that cannot keep out the Death Eaters for long.
Anyway, I'm off to read some more!
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posted
I've had a thought. I'm confusing myself and going in circles when I try to work through the Elder wand possession thing. Could someone tell me what I'm missing?
As I understand it the Elder wand is not one specific object, but its power can manifest in another wand if the 'defeated' original Elder wand is lost.
Dumbledore's wand is the Elder wand. Draco disarms Dumbledore, whose wand goes flying off the tower. Draco's wand is the Elder wand. Harry nabs Draco's wand. Harry's wand is the Elder wand, which is still the same actual wand. Harry's wand deflects the AK and Voldy goes boom.
But then... Harry uses the Elder wand to repair his old wand and decides he doesn't want to use the Elder wand. How does that work? Is that possible? Wouldn't the power of the Elder wand re-manifest in whatever wand Harry picked up? Can you will your wand to not be the Elder wand?
I'm thinking I've totally mixed something up with the Elder wand concept. Can anyone enlighten me?
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posted
The Elder Wand is a physical wand, it's not a power that transfers from wand to wand.
Dumbledore's wand is the Elder Wand. Draco disarms Dumbledore, whose wand goes flying off the tower. Snape kills Dumbledore, but it's a planned death, so he doesn't take possession. Elder Wand is buried with Dumbledore, but Draco still has control. Later Draco is disarmed by Harry and Harry has control over the Elder Wand, which is now possessed by Voldemort who stole it from Dumbledore's tomb. Harry's wand deflects the AK from the Elder Wand that Voldemort is holding because the Elder Wand cannot kill its true master.
So Harry uses the Elder Wand to repair his old phoenix core wand, then plans to put the Elder Wand in a drawer until he dies, so the power of the wand will die with him, as no one can claim it from him.
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posted
Liaison I'm pretty sure the Elder Wand is one physical wand, not a power that jumps around. So...
Dumbledore's wand is the Elder Wand Draco disarms DD, and the elder wand goes flying off the tower, though Draco is now it's master. It is later recovered and entombed with DD Harry disarms Draco of Draco's original wand, however because he has been disarmed by Harry, Harry is now the master of both Draco's original wand AND the Elder Wand, which is still in DD's tomb. Meanwhile, Voldy grabs the Elder Wand out of DD's tomb, and finds that he isn't the master of it. He figures Snape killed DD, so Snape must be the wand's master, so he kills Snape, and finds that he STILL isn't the master (Harry is, even though he doesn't realize it and doesn't have the wand)
When he fights Voldy in the end, Harry finally gets the wand that's been loyal to him since he disarmed Malfoy back at Malfoy Manner. Because it's so powerful when used by it's master, it is able to repair Harry's original Wand, which was never special except for it's connection to Voldy/Voldy's wand, and once this is done, he ditches the Elder Wand (which is still, and has always been, the same stick of wood that DD used).
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posted
Okay, here's my question: As soon as Harry disarms Draco, he technically becomes master of the Elder Wand, correct, having defeated Draco? (Skip over a few chapters of plot.) Voldemort then kills Harry. I thought that counted as defeat...wouldn't that make Voldemort master of the Elder Wand at that point? So the whole finale shouldn't have worked?
I don't know, just seemed a little odd to me. I guess you could call it a nonissue, since Harry was only "mostly dead" and does come back...still smells fishy, somehow.
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posted
I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory.
One thing I'd be curious about...did the Wand know that the AK wouldn't kill him? If the whole premise of Harry's victory is that the Elder Wand in the Great Hall wouldn't kill him because he is the true master, then why would the wand allow Voldemort to shoot an AK at him in the forest? Or did Harry have to have a spell on hand to deflect the shot? The whole thing seems like a grey area to me, but I'm satisfied with the way it turned out.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I don't know....I think the people finding Christian elements are off. Harry's 17, not 33. Also, his parents are murdered, and he is raised by people who hate him.
OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
Hmmm...yeah, no, I don't see it.
You are making the mistake of suggesting that for Harry Potter to have ANY Christian elements it must become an allegory for the story of Christ.
Take The Matrix which the creators have openly admitted has some Christ/Messianic themes in it. Neo didn't have 12 buddies who followed him around and did his bidding, he blew people away with guns instead of healing them, the words of Neo were never written down and passed around as truth.
But Neo did have a Judas, he did die, resurrect, and in resurrecting obtained the power to conquer everything in the matrix. Actually he died twice and went into some sort of coma once.
Again, maybe the elements are there, and perhaps they are not, I personally see some. But that does not mean I think that the whole series needs to be read in light of the events of Christ's life.
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quote:I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory.
So Voldemort and his followers celebrated the ENTIRE time that Harry had that long conversation and then just as Harry came back somebody thought to check if he was really dead?
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quote:Voldemort then kills Harry. I thought that counted as defeat.
There's actually a line in the book that explains this. Because Harry went willingly to his death and did not attempt to fight, it didn't count as a defeat.
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quote:I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory.
So Voldemort and his followers celebrated the ENTIRE time that Harry had that long conversation and then just as Harry came back somebody thought to check if he was really dead?
You're assuming that the conversation took a long time to those on the outside. The dreams we have at night can seem to take hours but in reality they last a few short minutes.
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We can nitpick all we want, but this was a good book and alongside some holes we want filled are holes that are perfectly fine and we can imagine filling. For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I thought it was the wands. The wands seemed to be tools the whole time, but we find out in this book that they have magic of their own and can do magic on their own. Harry's wand defends him from Voldemort without Harry doing anything about it, and the Elder Wand enabled Harry to win, and all wands choose their owners. There is magic-by-choice there, and we didn't really know about it before. I was certainly floored when Harry's wand saved him without Harry's instigation.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: And now on to happier things...
We can nitpick all we want, but this was a good book and alongside some holes we want filled are holes that are perfectly fine and we can imagine filling. For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
Oh I dunno, perhaps we would have seen little James Potter a few weeks prior to Voldemort's defeat.
Bao Chicka WAO WAO!
With how useless Ginny got to be in the last book, her being pregnant would not have been a hindrance.
------
I honestly can't see Ginny going much further then a few minutes of passionate kissing.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: And now on to happier things...
We can nitpick all we want, but this was a good book and alongside some holes we want filled are holes that are perfectly fine and we can imagine filling. For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
Oh I dunno, perhaps we would have seen little James Potter a few weeks prior to Voldemort's defeat.
Bao Chicka WAO WAO!
With how useless Ginny got to be in the last book, her being pregnant would not have been a hindrance.
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I honestly can't see Ginny going much further then a few minutes of passionate kissing.
Oh...under any normal circumstance I would agree with you. She certainly wasn't a loose girl nor would she intentionally bring shame upon herself or her family. But dark times tend to do a few things and, well, she knew she may never see him again and that he may very well be going off to die. It could be that she wasn't thinking clearly or even that she was -- and that she wanted little James just in case it was all she'd ever have of him.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: Snape has always rocked. Totally my favorite character since the first book.
What's weird is that Rowling had no idea that she was telegraphing Snape's redemption. She was shocked when a fan asked her about it at a talk she gave.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I think the reprieve may have been Hagrid. My only other guess would be McGonagall.
That bit about "magic late in life" was already answered by someone. It was Merope.
Huh? Isn't Merope Voldemort's mom? She was a witch.
She was more or less a Squib. But she used a potion to make Tom Riddle Sr. fall in love with her.
I don't believe she was a squib. When Dumbledore and Harry talked of her in HBP, Dumbledore specifically said she was a witch. Being bad at magic for whatever reason (nervousness or depression) is NOT the same thing as "doing magic late in life under extraordinary circumstances." I prefer to believe that Rowling cut the scene.
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: "I mean, Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts himself what, maybe 15 years earlier?"
15 years? Before Harry???
Tom went to Hogwarts 15 years before Harry to apply for the DADA job/plant the Diadem in the Room of Requirement. He attended Hogwarts waay before that.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Voldemort and his followers celebrated the ENTIRE time that Harry had that long conversation and then just as Harry came back somebody thought to check if he was really dead?
Voldemort was knocked "unconscious" at the same moment Harry was. That is why Harry doesn't awake to cheers, rather stunned silence and Bellatrix's piteous supplication of Voldemort. The portion of his soul that was in Harry went to King's Cross when Harry did. When Harry chose to go back to finish Voldy off, the disfigured-baby part of Voldy's soul remained defeated, and Harry needed to face Voldemort himself. I also am under the impression that the whole King's Cross chapter happened almost instantaniously, from the POV of the witnesses.
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: "I mean, Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts himself what, maybe 15 years earlier?"
15 years? Before Harry???
I'm pretty sure he was there 50-60 years before Harry.
As for DH, wow. It changes everything. I don't think I can read the other 6 the same way again.
Stuff I loved: McGonagal leading the desks into battle Ron/Hermione's kiss Kreacher changing and when he tells Harry to wash his hands before dinner Dobby and the escape from the Malfoy's The way they left 4 Privet Drive Neville Snape's history
I'm sure there's more, but it might be a bit much to list half the book.
I thought the amount of time they spent in the woods seemed a bit long. The only questions I really have pertain to what happened between the end of the book and the epilogue. What are they all doing? Did George continue the joke shop by himself? Who became Minister of Magic after the temp Kingsley (or did he just remain there)? Who became head of Hogwarts?
Someone mentioned somewhere that they would like a version of the book from Neville/Luna/Ginny's perspective and I think that would be awesome.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Does anyone else think a book from Neville's perspective of his year as a rebel leader at Hogwarts would be pretty good? It would only have to synch up with the DH plot at a few points (mostly the end).
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Does anyone else think a book from Neville's perspective of his year as a rebel leader at Hogwarts would be pretty good? It would only have to synch up with the DH plot at a few points (mostly the end).
I mentioned that in the "What next JK Rowling" (not the actual thread title) thread. I think it would be great if she wrote this story.
Posts: 1336 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by steven: OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
I think he ment the Jewish Community in Biblical times. The pharisees.
I don't care if he meant that. It's untrue and slanderous in either case. Steven should apologize.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
The whole time I was waiting for the 7th book to come out I was convinced the only way for the story to truly end would be with Harry dying but after thinking about it a lot I realized that it was much better this way.
2 quick things about Harry's death/rebirth:
Did the fact that Harry woke up at The King's Cross instantly remind anyone of Neo and the train station?
And throughout the whole "second coming" of Harry all I could think of was 'Lookout for Harry the White'
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posted
I don't get the diadem part. Voldemort went to hogwarts to apply for DADA before he got very popular, probably more than 15 years earlier (though maybe not). But he didnt' have the diadem until he went to Albania which whas the time from when Lilly and James died until Quirrell picked him up.
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