posted
I have always been curious as to whether there were laws prohibiting people from putting money into financial institutions, and then using time dialation to make more money....
You know kinda like the Resturant at the end of the universe.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
More thoughts on stasis - I feel like a thread hijacker. But I guess it makes sense to discuss stasis in an already spoiler-rich EinE thread.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: It is not the cost to the person doing the space traveling that I was worrying about, it the cost, financial, social, and practical, to the person who stays behind is Stasis waiting for them to return...if my Brother makes a round trip to Colony1/Shakespeare, that's...what...60 years of my life but only 3 or 4 in his life. So, while he is gone and I'm in stasis for 60 years, what happens to my house, my car, my possessions, my investments, ...everything? With the exception of investments, I give everything up; it's all gone...So, it is the money of the person who stays behind in stasis that I'm concerned about.
I actually disagree that the costs are that much different for the traveler. He is ALSO giving up 60 years of human history the same way the earthbound one does. His possessions, etc. also have to be given up (can't take your house along on a spaceship). He will also suffer the types of costs you describe: financial, for having to pay for the flight and perhaps the price of stasis for the other; social, for leaving that home for 60 years relativistically as well as having to endure the 3 or so years subjectively without his loved one. I'm not clear on what you mean by "practical" cost.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: When my brother returns, he has is familiar and friendly brother there to help with the transition, but we have no place to live, we have virtually no cloths, no furniture, no general possession. Plus, how much help am I going to be, the world moved 60 years (1948 to 2008) forward while I fell behind.
I think that this sort of hypothetical illustrates the choice one has to make about what is important to them. If a person truly valued their family more than any worldly possession they might attempt this. It's not a matter of being of "help" to the one who left on the flight, but a matter of being a person who so truly loved this traveler that you are willing to give up everything in order to continue to live your lives together.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: As to extended lifetimes, lives are extended over time, but the lives themselves are not extended. Despite having existed for 3,000 years, by all reasonable measure, both Ender and Valentine are just beyond middle age. The only lifetime that matters is the 'real-time' life that you live. The fact that the world has lived 3,000 years doesn't matter that much to Ender who saw less than 60 year of it...I think it is far more likely that people who go are people who are able to cut their ties with their past. And people who stay, simply say their farewells, and move on with their life...So, I don't see your hypothetical situation coming up that often.
(Combining quotes so I can address both.) I agree with you that what you describe would be more normal. But what I'm trying to explain is the idea of the hypothetical - that this scenario is POSSIBLE creates a fundamental change in the human society of the Ender books. Stasis creates this exception, no matter how rare, that appears to ultimately undermine the intense emotional costs of pre-FTL starflight, the fact that a traveler would never see his family again.
Not only that, stasis destroys the monopoly starflight had on "immortality" - the ability to prolong one's lifespan. Stasis is a form of life extension that even has lesser emotional costs than starflight: you don't have to travel to another planet. The introduction of this system appears to me to be a step on the path to the nightmarish society of Capitol. People will do anything to avoid death, and if some buy into the delusion that stasis is immortality as was done in Worthing, people will do anything to get stasis. I'm sure many would realize the falseness of the "extended lifetime" you talk about. Maybe I lack faith in humanity, but I'm sure just as many would not see it that way. Or perhaps, just before they die and have no attachments left to the world, they go on stasis, just to see what happens on Earth as far in the future as they can pay for it. I'm sure this would also have happened with starflight, and it could be that restrictions were introduced to prevent such actions.
Practically the only way I see this not devolving into chaos has to involve SEVERE restriction of stasis. This seems possible in EinE as Graff is the only man on Earth we know of that had used it. Stasis would have to be either the deepest of secrets (hard to do, when you have a prominent character like Graff suspiciously living far beyond his normal life expectancy) or practically illegal. It would have to be so far removed from the public that no amount of money could purchase it and no amount of corruption could feed it into the hands of those who desire it. Or society as a whole would have to see through its farce of immortality (which I think would be an incredible feat). We've seen what people would do to find the Fountain of Youth...what would they do for stasis?
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: True Stasis does add some complications, and since we suspect that was done to relieve an existing inconsistency, while actually creating more inconsistencies, I again caution OSC not to become too obsessed with fixing inconsistencies.
Or at least don't fix them with stasis. I agree with you. I believe OSC has talked before about how stories evolve and change, and perhaps things don't fit together in one pretty big picture, but that doesn't change the value of the stories themselves to the people who read them. Makes sense to me.
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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In Children of the Mind, it is said that the interplanetary currency that was made standard was derived from the Japanese yen. In Ender in Exile, it appears as though the FPE adopted some form of the dollar and made it standard. But with the gold bug subplot, it is mentioned that the colonists generally barter for trade, and eventually it is speculated that colonists would use their own local currencies when the colonies become large enough for a more complex economy to develop.
There are letters, particularly toward the end of Ender in Exile, that talk about trade between the colonies. It is hinted that there would come a time when there would be need for a universal currency or at least a way to compare the values of the local currencies, so eventually the FPE, or maybe Starways Congress (would it take that long?) would standardize something.
But how the heck does it get to the point where the Japanese yen becomes the dominant standardized currency, more powerful than the universal Hegemony dollar, or the US dollar, or the Euro (all three mentioned in the Shadow books). It's not completely impossible, but it must have taken some surge of Japanese-centered progress in some economic front to get to that point, and if that were the case the Japanese nationalistic characters in Children of the Mind would be bragging about very different things.
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
CotM mentions that there are a string of Japanese planets in the Starways Congress, and that they are highly influential, if not dominant, in policy formation. This may have happened very quickly in the colonization movement, and Japan may have been in a position to leverage quite a lot of influence among the planets and the FPE.
Also, you notice that Earth is mentioned only a handful of times in any of the Ender books, and the idea of someone being born there is seen as ridiculous. I think it's possible OSC is holding out references to Earth because he hasn't decided or doesn't want to reveal what happens there after Peter becomes Hegemon. It's quite possible that the FPE breaks up following his death, or that the Earth is destroyed in the future by some man made or natural disaster, and loses its influence on the Starways Congress, or among the planets.
There's no reason ultimately to assume that the Starways Congress currency, or even the entity of SC itself, comes from Earth at all, and it may indeed come from Divine Wind, or another Japanese by culture planet.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Regarding currency, in the Ender in Exile books, Ender discusses the problems with currency, but remember that is only about 70 years after he left earth, so it is possible that some form of Dollar was still the dominant currency. But in later books, say First Meetings-Investment Councilor, we are now 500 years in the future. By this time, star travel is more common and the planets are more establish. Ultimately and eventually, the develope the universal currency of 'Star Counts'.
As to the idea of being born on earth being ridiculous, I'm not so sure that is so far off. Earth would be an ancient planet with a very long history and a very long history of inter-country conflicts, hences in the very long run, I don't see it as being as productive and prosperous as the newly developed planets. The new planets can be more carefully planned, and many seem to be somewhat of a mono-culture. That makes things easier.
At some point, once the planets start to develop, the new innovations and the new technology break throughs are going to come more and more from the planets and less and less from earth. As this happens old ancient earth become less and less relevant. At some point it become the 'quaint old uncle' to the rest of the world. You look upon him (it) with fondness but little relevance.
When there is only one earth, earth is pretty important, but when there are a hundred earths, each with new pools of natural resources and technology, then the earth becomes far less relevant.
Finally, when an interplanetary government is established, which likely is not located on earth, earth, for the most part, become irrelevant. Like I said, to the Hundred Worlds, earth is like a quaint old uncle. Nice to see him at Christmas, but the rest of the time, he just slows you down.
posted
Just finished the book, it took all my will power to buy the book and not read it until I was on the airplane to Japan.
I still need a bit more time to let the book settle inside but I was so pleased with it when I finished. It didn't knock my socks off like Ender's Shadow, but there was a goodness to it that just left me very happy. I agree completely that it should be read after one has finished the shadow series. Chronologically it does not make sense to read it right after Ender's Game.
I hope Mr. Card continues to write books this good, if he does, I'll continue buying them.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
After reading this I was also a bit confused about why Bean didn't go into stasis. It definitely didn't give any reason. If Ender doesn't age, why would Bean age? This will probably be explained in the next Shadow book.
My thoughts are that someone needs to pilot the ship, even if it is completely autonomous, somoene would need to be awake at least just in case. Or, babies can't go into stasis and Bean has to look after them (although I'm pretty sure some of the colonists in stasis were probably babies so this is less likely)
All in all a pretty good book, one annoying thing was that since being bowled over by Ender's game, I've grudgingly put up with Bean being given a lot of the credit for what we all thought was all Ender originally. Now in this book it is suggested that the formics LET Ender destroy them all. Sometimes I think OSC is determined to undermine Ender for some reason. Of course that's his perogative.
quote:Originally posted by badman: After reading this I was also a bit confused about why Bean didn't go into stasis. It definitely didn't give any reason. If Ender doesn't age, why would Bean age? This will probably be explained in the next Shadow book.
My thoughts are that someone needs to pilot the ship, even if it is completely autonomous, somoene would need to be awake at least just in case. Or, babies can't go into stasis and Bean has to look after them (although I'm pretty sure some of the colonists in stasis were probably babies so this is less likely)
All in all a pretty good book, one annoying thing was that since being bowled over by Ender's game, I've grudgingly put up with Bean being given a lot of the credit for what we all thought was all Ender originally. Now in this book it is suggested that the formics LET Ender destroy them all. Sometimes I think OSC is determined to undermine Ender for some reason. Of course that's his perogative.
I disagree. In Ender's Game Ender shows twice his willingness to accept impossibility. When he saw the masses of ships he simply stopped caring as victory was impossible. Bean's admonotion simply pushed Ender enough to at least throw out an attempt at winning anyway.
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posted
Please hilight only the specific thing you disagree with. Besides, this is not the only thing Bean took credit for. In Ender's Shadow Bean describes how Ender's orders were often vague and he interpreted them to the Jeesh more clearly. Also Bean was responsible for putting together Dragon Army and responsible for their final victory against 2 armies. Ender says in Ender's Exile that bean practically told him how to win the final battle. It's almost like Ender's Game has been unwritten by the bean quartet.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I just kinda get the idea that neither one really wants to take credit.
Remember that Graff assured Bean in Ender's Shadow that Mazer would tell Ender the truth about Bean after the war. Out of respect maybe Mazer told Ender the entire truth about Bean. Now that's not to say that Bean would have won the war. Bean acknowledged in Ender's Shadow that only Ender could have understood the Bugger's well enough for the plan to work. Bean gave him the nudge.
However that being considered, Ender never seemed to have a read on Bean. Ender always thought Bean was angry with him when in reality Bean just figured out the true situation and stated it bluntly. Comments like "Found the note after you got out of the shower?" Ender took them as insults, instead of Bean figuring out what really happened. Ender seems to have an idea of what everyone else is thinking, but with Bean he never did.
I also think it goes back to what Mazer said to Peter. Peter couldn't make men want to serve under him. Every soldier under Ender would die for him. That wasn't the case with Bean. Ender's jeesh just wouldn't have been as good under Bean.
I think both characters realize these factors on some level, but both want to acknowledge how good the other one is. Ironically I felt Ender in Exile cleared quite a bit of this up. Instead of Ender being a brilliant tactician, he was instead just a great commander. Bean is given credit as the tactician, but Ender is in every way that matters shown to be a better commander. Graff even says that Ender's gift is to make people love him.
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quote:Ender seems to have an idea of what everyone else is thinking, but with Bean he never did.
That's because one-directional mind-reading is one of the most important ways Card establishes his hierarchy of intelligence. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I'm not sure 'mind reading' is really the right term to use here. Both Ender and Bean have a very fast and deep intuitive understanding of the people around them and of the immediate situation. They both understand before anyone else has even begun to analyze. But a deep fast intuitive understanding is not quite the same as mind reading.
I think one of the reasons for the conflict in intuitive understanding between Bean and Ender, is that on shear raw intellect, Bean is superior to Ender. Yet, there are other aspect that put Ender ahead. When you are smarter than everyone else in the room, it is easy to figure other out. But when you have two people who are hyper-genius but in different ways, it is next to impossible for either to understand the other in this intuitive way.
Ender vs Bean - The Story -
I personally see no real conflicts between Ender version of the story and Bean's. We are all the hero (or central figure) in our own life story. We live it, we see it, we tell it from our own unigue perspective, and that alone is more than enough to explain the difference.
Ender was indeed the Commander, he had the ability to make people love him, and make them willing to die for him, and make them willing to follow them against all reason and odds.
But Bean had this ability too, at least when he wasn't overshadowed by Ender. Once Ender left earth and Bean stayed behind to continue fighting the fight on earth, we find that many many loved him, were dedicated and loyal to him, and would follow his order against all logic and reason.
Out of Ender's shadow, we see that Bean really was Ender's equal. But you can't have two supreme leaders. Someone ultimately has to lead, and someone ultimately has to follow. In Battle School and Command School, Bean, who survived by not getting too deeply involved in the world around him, followed. Let Ender carry that weight and danger.
But later when circumstances force Bean to become involved, he really did have all the leadership attributes we assign the Ender.
So, again, I see no conflict between the Bean and Ender stories. Bean did what Ender could not, and Ender did what Bean could not. Yet, between the two of them, misunderstood as they were, they were an absolutely unbeatable team.
Yes, Bean did lots of things in the background. Partly because he was smart enough to figure out what was going on. And rather than try to suppress information from Bean, and effort that would ultimately fail, they decided to use Bean's talents to everyone's advantage.
Yet, Ender did things like this as well. While everyone was obsessed with the pointless Battle Room. Ender was concentrating on the Buggers. He knew that was where the answer to defeating them lied, even if no one else did. Ender saw things that Bean did not, but Bean saw things that Ender simply didn't have the time to see.
They were both heroes, and one being a hero does not steal anything away from the other being a hero as well. There is room in the world for more than one hero in my opinion.
So, I really don't see Bean's story diminishing Ender in the slightest.
posted
I will still say that Bean did not have that ability. The fact is Ender's Jeesh were the best of the best and none of them "loved" Bean outside of Petra. It should also be noted that Petra said that Ender was the best she had known. Ender was not an option for her to be involved with, so she settled for Bean. Settled may be a bad way of saying it, but I can't think of any better way to say it.
The men who loved Bean were the small force of soldiers he acquired in Shadow of the Hegemon. Besides Bean learned the proper way to command an army from Ender.
Tactically, Bean just saw it. The same way Ender just tends to see people for what they are.
However if anyone has been undermined in all of this, I would say it has to be Alai. Ender on first impulse thought that Alai could do his job. When asked to really be honest with himself then he took it back. However, Alai in the Shadow books is afraid to go to war against Bean.
Some things that the shadow books showed us are that Bean tended to agree with Ender's strategies. Which meant he thought Ender was doing the right thing. Even if Ender's strategies were different they were still successful. I say this to just to point out, that just because Bean could see everyone's strategy doesn't mean that he could necessarily defeat it if the other side had an overwhelming advantage. Bean never really gained that advantage of Earth, so much as the others with more capable armies lost it due to the factors of other people involved.
All in all, after rereading most of these books after getting Ender in Exile, I just saw two things. Bean was smarter, Ender was a better commander. Bean's vision of himself was as Ender's right hand. Ender didn't see things in terms of tactics, he saw them in terms of objectives. He relied on everyone else to develop their own tactics.
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quote:Ender was not an option for her to be involved with, so she settled for Bean. Settled may be a bad way of saying it, but I can't think of any better way to say it.
The way you have it worded there seems to imply that if Ender had come back to Earth, it would have been a natural lock that Petra would try and hook up with him. I don't think at any point that that was ever really an option. At no point in their relationship was their a chance for that kind of relationship to even be seeded let alone grow. Especially at the end of their friendship, when it was a commander to commanded relationship, it was far, far too professional for anything to develop. There was a wall there, and an even bigger one perhaps given what happened with Petra's breakdown. Sure they all made nice at the end, but I don't think that his coming back to Earth would have made the awkwardness of their formality go away. Even more so, given what we know about Ender in the future.
Besides, Petra had several other male options, ones that were toyed with in the books as potential suitors.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I got Ender in Exile as a Christmas present, which made me happy (not as happy as the Yo-Yo Ma concert ticket, but still...). I just finished reading it yesterday (the book, not the concert ticket).
I'm with those who enjoyed the book, but definitely don't think it was Card's finest work.
I know the Achilles thing was supposed to be the grand climax of the story, but it sure didn't feel like it. The parts about Virlomi's colony, because they were completely disconnected from the rest of the story lines, felt...well...disconnected. Which meant that, for me, the Achilles conflict felt like a tacked-on epilogue.
I wish he'd done what he did with Xenocide/CotM - split it up into two books.
Although, in fairness, I guess people who had read the short stories would have felt even more cheated if he'd done that...
Posts: 324 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Re: The revised Chapter 15 of Ender's Game. OSC says: I meant to write it immediately, while all the events of Ender in Exile were fresh in my mind. But I didn't, and now it has been months, and I will actually have to WORK to do it right. So please bear with me - I'll get this fix in place as quickly as I can.
posted
I really liked EiE. Specifically seeing Ender at that age again. I always felt like we missed a great deal with the age jump in SftD. To me this gave a lot of insight as to how Ender got to who he ended up being.
I kinda thought Achilles II would be smarter, but he was raised by his crazy, lied-to mother in relative safety, while Bean had to hone his instincts and intelligence in the streets and then in Battle School, so it makes sense to me that Achilles II wouldn't have been as prepared to deal with Ender as Bean obviously would have.
One of my favorite lines:
quote:"It's not your war," said Valentine. Ender laughed. "It's always my war."
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I agree with you. I believe OSC has talked before about how stories evolve and change, and perhaps things don't fit together in one pretty big picture, but that doesn't change the value of the stories themselves to the people who read them. Makes sense to me.
