As good as intentions are, I can't get out of my head that this is what this thread is really about:
Boys are stupid.
Boys are stinky.
You've seen the t-shirts right?
There is only one thing that males are, universally, without exception. There is only one affliction from which males to be deprogrammed--
Selfishness.
But you ladies know all about that. Intimate experience and all . . .
The truth of the matter is, young men need to be told to embrace the characteristics that make them men: Ambition, Drive, even Aggression. But there are no male role models to guide them how to use these traits to build community, because modernist thinking has condemned these characteristics as barbaric.
That is the modern thinking, and it is evidenced here in this thread: Men are natural barbarians, and women are meant to tame them. Civilize them.
Baloney.
ALL people are naturally barbarians. It's just that in this day and age, women's selfishness is praised as independence, and men's selfishness is condemned.
posted
Brasher than I, but well said. I've been writing a lot about these sexual tensions, but if there's something you can't call my posts to date, it's apologetic. (OT: I always hate having the 49th post.) In so many words, don't expect to deprogram me anytime soon.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:That is the modern thinking, and it is evidenced here in this thread: Men are natural barbarians, and women are meant to tame them. Civilize them.
Baloney.
"Modern thinking"? You mean scientific theory?
(I enjoyed the post, though, Scott. Even though I hardly ever agree with you, and we usually cross forum paths just as you're waking up snarky and I'm just heading to bed cranky, you're not such a bad guy. )
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I do plan on abstinence until I get married. I want to wait until I've found who I'm going to be with my whole life. And I've found, actually, that when girls find out about that, they're more relaxed around me. Which is nice. I suppose normally there seems to be some pressure, huh.
Posts: 550 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I personally happen to find ambition irresistably sexy....
Anyways. I don't understand why it's supposed to be the woman's responsibility to keep the guy, you know, wearing deoderant and whatnot. I mean, don't you guys worry about looking good whether or not there's a woman around?
Posts: 9057 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote: Femininity in the sense that women have the babies, not men, and that it's okay to be a mom. And okay and even desirable to be a woman, with all the differences that entails, instead of trying to be a man.
If this is the definition of femininity, then I am not feminine. I do not want to have children. I have lots of friends who want to be moms, and that's fine, that's what they want...but it's not for me.
And it's funny, you'd think that, with all this talk on how motherhood is "despised" and women's "selfishness" is labeled "independence," people would accept this without comment.
But they don't. I've been married almost four years, and people ALWAYS ask if I have children and then look disappointed when I don't, or ask me why I don't, or make some speech about how great motherhood is. I'm sure motherhood IS great--but it isn't something that I want. So, the whole war on motherhood thing? Is baloney. Complete and utter baloney.
Ahem. </rant>
Fresh hot bagels and apologies to anyone I've offended.
posted
Am I weird that I've known a lot of female playas? Am I wierd in that I've found the proportion to be about equal among the sexes, but men are usually more honest about it?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
When it comes down to it, I think that our eyes are clouded by stereotype. Instead of looking at a person and WONDERING about them, we say "Hmm.. Anglo-saxon male, late 20's, wearing preppy clothes" or whatever, and draw conclusions from there. Instead, what if you looked for a way to connect with the person FIRST? He has on an interesting watch. He is frowning. Instead of using our prejudices to form walls, why not try to find out who that person really is? I don't like being pigeon-holed, and sometimes I take a perverse delight sharing things from inside of me that are different from the norm. It immediately turns some people off, but it charms several others. And then they feel free to lay their stereotype baggage aside for a few moments and just be themselves.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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YOu know, I find this thread really degrading, and I'm female. I don't think you're giving guys(especially the hatrack ones) Nearly enough credit. Women ask an awful lot of them, and most do pretty well. Guys aren't dumb, dense sometimes, yes, but not dumb.
quote: Anyways. I don't understand why it's supposed to be the woman's responsibility to keep the guy, you know, wearing deoderant and whatnot. I mean, don't you guys worry about looking good whether or not there's a woman around?
I went to an all male highschool, and my experiance was that while guys don't try to llok awful when there are no girls around, they are much less concerned about looking good, some were hardly concerned about it at all.
Posts: 2332 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote: You expect me to rush in here saying something like "lets have sex."
No, I expect you to:
A. Be flirty, which you seem to do a lot of. B. Make a joke. Not everything you say is a joke at all, but you do often make them.
Lots of people at Hatrack make jokes about threads...it's part of the reason we're funny. Saying I expect one of you to make a joke about what I said wasn't an insult, it was an acknowledgement that you guys are funny.
I'm starting to get bored with the "I'm so offended" routine.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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The other night, he was complaining because I had said something in girl language and he hadn't caught it. He said it wasn't fair to expect guys to be able to speak girl all of a sudden. That's fair, and I told him so.
But I also told him that he can't expect girls to stop speaking girl and start speaking guy all of a sudden, either. We have to compromise and both learn to deal with each other as best we can.
I think that, rather than "deprogramming" guys, we girls should learn to deal with them as guys. Guys should try to eliminate a few of their less-attractive habits if they want to be able to live with a girl, and girls should also work to become someone a guy can live with. It works both ways.
We're people, not angels, and both genders have a long way to go.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Is it really just a gender problem, or a problem with individuals making the rest look bad? for instance, a woman dates a guy who treats her like steaming dog crap and breaks her heart. Would she get into her head that all men are jerks and not just this one just as a man might think that all women are horrible skanks due to one woman? Really men should be insulting and complain about how often they are trashed. On movies, in books... on all these shows. It's insulting to all the men who are lovely and don't act...so....... slutty...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Really men should be insulting and complain about how often they are trashed.
Synesthesia: This isn't a deprogram the other race thread, This is a deprogram males thread.
I think that some women believe that men actually don't care, or can't be hurt in the same ways a woman can.
quote: just as a man might think that all women are horrible skanks due to one woman?
Olivet, Jenny Gardner, Brinestone, KWSNI, Myr, and many others here on Hatrack show me that Women are not ALL bad, and I know that; I may still say they are but deep down I still love to talk to them, and hang out with them EVEN though I've been hurt before.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Mark was right. Carnations got me a "Oh thank you" and that was that. But I was still cool with that.
Mack, you mean you didn't get it? I... uh... sent it in the mail. It's the post office's fault.
And PSI, I was trying to use that to illustrate a point that I sounded like a guy you had a crush on in high school. You stated in the first post that you wondered if girls dig guys who brag about sex and such, then you (even jokingly) expected me to come in here and say 'Wanna have sex' or be flirtatious. If you expected me, even jokingly, to say that, and yet I reminded you of a guy you had a crush on, then that would be the answer to your first post. And yes, it stung a bit, but I wasn't offended as much as I could have been. Posts: 530 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Insulting was certainly not how I meant to be. And yeah, that guy probably would have made the joke, but the important thing is that, what would have made the joke funny would have been the complete contrast with his character. The reason I expected you to say it would have been because it's obvious that you're the last guy anyone would really expect to have that flippant attitude toward sex, which would have made the joke more funny. (At least to me.)
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
It's funny that I started this thread and it never really occured to me to give my real opinion on the subject. It may be due to the fact that it was started half in jest as a response to the Double Standard thread.
There seems to be an idea among many women that "de-programming" the male mind should result in a creature that would happily go along with whatever the female mind can conceive of. I'll probably get flamed for saying this but I'm going to anyway. A huge problem that many women have is the ability to change their minds on a whim, and not always on solid information. And yet we get so annoyed when the men in our lives continue to see things the same way they did yesterday and the day before, without any regard whatsoever for the whimsy ruling much of our decision-making. Wouldn't it be much better if men would just agree with whatever we say? It would certainly create more harmony, at least for a while.
So, sometimes (but not for all women, certainly), when women talk about the perfect guy, they may mean a man that will play dead.
One day a woman may say:
"Don't pull the chair out for me. I'm an independent person and I don't need you doing things for me!"
But the next day it becomes:
"Why won't you treat me like a lady?"
Or:
"Why do you think that I'll drop everything to have sex with you whenever you want!"
becomes:
"Why don't you ever want to fool around?"
Alot of times it seems that men can never do things right in regards to their partners. We want you to work hard and provide; we want you to take the day off when we need you home. We want you to give us alot of special attention, but why are you ignoring the kids?
The fact that most men will continue to do things the same way can be very frustrating for us. Sometimes we may even convince ourselves we'd be happier if you'd just do what we want.
But we Hatrack ladies know better.
Unfortunately, the idea may still be rampant in society, and media helps by portraying men as dolts who'll do whatever will make their wives stay off their back. (Although sometimes that happens in real life, too. Hopefully in none of OUR relationships though. )
The truth is that men are great. The characteristics they are born with are not impairments, they are strengths. There have been so many times that I'm glad my husband said "No" to something that would have turned out terrible.
My point is that I don't think it's a good idea to try and change a man so that he's no longer male.
But I do think it's important to offer good role models for men from a young age, so that their characteristics can be developed in such a way that they do good for the man, his family, and the rest of society, instead of being detrimental.
Men are strong and often impulsive:
Good uses: 1. Protection of his body, his family, and his possessions. 2. Taking advantage of a good deal.
Bad uses: 1. Beating up the elderly man that dinged your car in traffic. (Stuff like this is happening more and more each day.) 2. Wasting money on a get-rich-quick scheme.
Notice that I'm not suggesting that men should stop being impulsive. I just think that men need a chance to learn how to control their impulses so that they work to their advantage.
In both sexes, the things that most define each of us are often the things that we need the most training in order to control. In men, I think it's impulses. In women, it's our emotions.
I think that both sexes need to be de-programmed in some ways.
Please make up your mind, do you hate males? or what?
In reading your posts I get very mixed ideas.
quote: A huge problem that many women have is the ability to change their minds on a whim, and not always on solid information. And yet we get so annoyed when the men in our lives continue to see things the same way they did yesterday and the day before, without any regard whatsoever for the whimsy ruling much of our decision-making.
Then you go on to say:
quote: Men are strong and often impulsive:
And how that we apparently can't learn to control ourselves. I wonder if every man actually didn't control ANYTHING about themselves what would your picture of men REALLY be like?
I know that I'm not a woman, and to claim that I know what is going on in their head, UNLESS I know them personally it would be supremely far fetched. *or any other person for that matter, gender beside.*
I don't think that clumping "people" into groups and saying anything; will get anything done.
posted
I know you mean well, but I instinctively disagree with any sentence that begins "Men are . . . " or "Women are . . . "
I think we should teach all people to be honorable, diligent, sensitive, and so forth. I think all children should have good role models of what an adult is.
But someone will just come in here and tell me I'm too PC. Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: And how that we apparently can't learn to control ourselves.
Did I say that? I said yes they CAN, and the best way is with a good role model.
and Icky, I realize that most people don't like generalizations like "Men are..." or "Women are..." but I think it's because there's always a chance that there will be a person that doesn't fit that who will get upset. But, like economics, it doesn't have to be perfect. It only has to create a fairly accurate model from which people can draw conclusions.
Without being able to make some generalizations about the world around you (whether consciously or subconsciously) it is very difficult to predict ANYTHING, which is necessary for survival.
Example: "Feeding the squirrels will cause them to become used to your feeding, and they will no longer be able to survive without what you give them."
Somewhere there may be one or two squirrels that will always be able to feed themselves regardless, but they don't have the ability to gripe about how they are not depicted fairly.
It is impossible to accurately represent everyone on the planet, because such a model would be too difficult to use.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Making complete generalizations about the entire world is just as false as making no generalizations, IE make educated guesses based upon the individuals you deal with. *iow, take the information you have from other individuals, and apply it to similar cases; Not general cases.
Being a good role model to me is NOT following in the same ways as the ones you wish to see die out.
If you become the exception to the rule, and people see that the exception is better off, then the exception will become the rule. *If I a man, treat women very well, then I think that the women I treat well, will see that not ALL men are bad, and give other men a chance.* -- note the "IF"
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
This is kind of funny, to me, since I've been sort of exploring this idea in a novel I'm writing.
It's set in a very uncomfortable place for me, and I think that's why it interests me so much. The idea of what is really 'male' and what is 'female' in terms of behavior, etc.
I CAN promise you that when a person says, "Men are like this and women are like that" they are going to be wrong, at least partially. Generalizations are by their nature general, and therefore wrong when it comes to almost any given individual.
Humans like to categorize and sort people into neat little stacks like legos, but it isn't that easy.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
You know, Kat, these similarities are starting to be slightly creepy and cool. And we'll never know how much alike we are until you post telling everyone the similarities.
Posts: 530 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I also really appreciate that men are quite different from women on the whole. There is an idea of balance, expressed by the now-popular black-and-white symbol I can't remember the name of. But there is white and black in equal proportion, and a little of the black is in the white, and a little of the white is in the black. I think that it's a very poignant concept when discussing men and women. Both are necessary, and both are good in their own ways. But an imbalance of either is not good.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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