However, how does he know God is good? Religious faith? If one has faith in his God, it is easy to believe His actions are Good and should therefore be obeyed.
I submit that for someone without the same religious faith, blindly accepting God's word as to the Higher Good is unacceptable because it lacks any credibility. Without faith that God exists or serves the assigned role in reality, one cannot believe in God as being the source of all Good.
The basic conflict between the two viewpoints:
God exists. God is the creator of all things. God is Good.
God may or may not exist. God's role, if any is unknown. God may or may not be Good.
It boils down to Faith - either you have it or you don't.
quote:It was well-put, but it was also unfortunately unverifiable. I would submit that for everyone to whom Scott's sentence would apply, there is a counterexample.
That's all I'm saying, Tom - there are counterexamples. I don't deny there are corrosive fundamentalists of almost all religions. But you've tried to make a case that everyone who holds these beliefs is corrosive.
posted
Nope. I'm saying that everyone who holds these beliefs subscribes to a cause which is inevitably corrosive.
Like the palestinian kid in my first example, they aren't out there throwing rocks themselves, but they support -- perhaps even for good reasons -- people who are.
posted
Don't worry Tom, it only took me about 15 seconds to come up with that phrase, it wasn't too hard considering the tools I had to work with.
I have, however, spent quite a bit of time wondering about the fellow that was the target of the sentence.
Wondering things like:
"I wonder where the dividing line is between fundamentalist and Christian in his perspective."
"I wonder if it is easier to judge someone for the name on the building they walk out of on Sunday at noon, than it would be to actually find out what that person stood for."
"I wonder how Christianity has hurt this man."
"I wonder if he'd be offended if I remembered him in my prayers when he was sick, injured or in trouble."
"I wonder if he learned who I was and how I live my life, if he would judge me for my deeds rather than my affiliation. And in so doing, might he gain a new perspective on my affiliation?"
"I wonder what threat me and my ilk present to this fellow as we just simply try to live our lives and make the best of it we can."
So, yeah, I spent a wee bit of time on the statement, but a lot more on the fellow who prompted it.
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quote: Like the palestinian kid in my first example, they aren't out there throwing rocks themselves, but they support -- perhaps even for good reasons -- people who are.
So, does this mean that people who share beliefs with someone else support every decision that they make? You should probably stop shopping at any company that has ever done anything illegal or unethical, and refuse to believe in anything that has ever been misused or misinterpreted.
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1) See my definition of fundamentalist. A Christian who is good first and Christian second is not a fundamentalist.
2) If you think I don't know what most churchgoers stand for, you don't know much about me.
3) It's not that Christianity has hurt me much, although individual Christians have been occasionally insulting. It's that fundamentalism in general -- the belief that a cause justifies an action -- has been one of the driving forces for evil in the world.
4) Nope. If, however, you were praying with the hope that you'd get bonus points from God for doing so (as some people do), or praying self-righteously and conspicuously -- as in "I'm praying for you, Tom" -- I'd be a bit offended. In general, however, I don't think prayers on someone else's behalf are a huge deal, although it's pretty rude to do it if they've made it clear that they're bothered by it.
5) I judge EVERYONE by their deeds. Your affiliation, however, is also a deed, unless you were born a fundamentalist and never thought you were free to change.
6) Hell is other people, said Sartre. What you consider "just simply trying to live your life" and what I consider just simply trying to live MY life wind up frequently at odds with each other. I would submit that my way of life is considerably friendlier to fundamentalism than fundamentalism is to mine.
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"So, does this mean that people who share beliefs with someone else support every decision that they make?"
When you can show me a substantial number of fundamentalists agreeing that the behavior Christian god has been regrettable and many of His interventions should probably have been handled differently, I'll agree that they are not willing enablers of that evil.
posted
That's only possible, Dag, if you grant that Christianity is never at odds with goodness, and that the issue never need come up. History shows that, all hypotheticals aside, this is highly unlikely.
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quote:When you can show me a substantial number of fundamentalists agreeing that the behavior Christian god has been regrettable and many of His interventions should probably have been handled differently, I'll agree that they are not willing enablers of that evil.
Tom, I doubt you'd find many Christians of any stripe who believe that any of God's behavior was regrettable or that He should have handled things differently.
quote: That's only possible, Dag, if you grant that Christianity is never at odds with goodness, and that the issue never need come up.
The problem here is that you and I have different ideas about what is good, and you don't have any more proof that you're right than I do.
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posted
"Tom, I doubt you'd find many Christians of any stripe who believe that any of God's behavior was regrettable or that He should have handled things differently."
But, see, many of those Christians will refer to these behaviors as allegories, or stories; things we don't need to take literally. Your typical "the Bible is the literal word of God" fundamentalist will not, however. All these fundamentalists have to fall back upon, then, is their faith that the complete destruction of the human race is better -- on an absolute moral level -- than any other alternative.
I find that philosophy pretty darn evil, and am unapologetic about it.
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quote:That's only possible, Dag, if you grant that Christianity is never at odds with goodness, and that the issue never need come up. History shows that, all hypotheticals aside, this is highly unlikely.
Now you're confusing the institutions of Christianity with the religion of Christianity. Ironically, fundamentalists propbably have the less institutional loyalty than most other Christians.
posted
"Now your confusing the institutions of Christianity with the religion of Christianity."
As almost every single institution of Christianity has been led by someone who has claimed to know the will of the Christian God, I find it relatively impossible to distinguish between them. In fact, the "worship the God, not the church" belief seems relatively pagan to me, especially since it's only one step away from my own "there is an absolute good, independent of the will of any hypothetical god" argument.
If God has not taken steps to ensure the integrity of His church(es), He is liable for their flaws.
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posted
"are you willing to accept responsibility for everything evil done by those who hate Christian fundamentalism?"
As I haven't joined any organization to that effect, no. When and if I get around to joining the Society for Thinking People (or whatever), I'll of course expect the behavior of the people in that organization to reflect upon me. More importantly, I will expect people to assume that my voluntary membership reflects my tacit endorsement of the behavior of the organizaton's leader.
"I wonder what he could have done without taking away part of a person's free will."
I would submit that killing somebody is about as powerful a way of taking away their freedom as anything else out there.
quote:"are you willing to accept responsibility for everything evil done by those who hate Christian fundamentalism?"
As I haven't joined any organization to that effect, no. When and if I get around to founding the Society for Thinking People (or whatever), I'll of course expect the behavior of the people in my organization to reflect upon me.
A there's no "National Christian Fundamentalist" organization, and many are actually entirely independent church's, I wonder why you feel comfortable lumping them together then. It can't be their common philosophy, since that's not enough to give you responsibility for others who think as you do.
quote:"I wonder what he could have done without taking away part of a person's free will."
I would submit that killing somebody is about as powerful a way of taking away their freedom as anything else out there.
posted
"It can't be their common philosophy, since that's not enough to give you responsibility for others who think as you do."
I think it's safe to say that all Christian fundamentalists have pledged allegiance to the Christian god and are therefore responsible for His behavior.
"Not if there's an eternal soul, it doesn't."
Do you believe in an eternal Hell?
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posted
But Tom, how do we know that your definition of Good is the right one?
How do you know that the overall Good isn't just "What's good for Tom."
Let's talk in the general here about the more prevalent world religions and their adherents. They can look back over a history, over centuries, if not millenia, of debate and reasoning. They can look at their failures and they can always look at what they were striving to achieve.
Let's look more specifically at Christians. Libraries are filled with the debates and reasoning of learned men as well as those who have interjected their own prejudices and notions into their beliefs. The writings of St. Francis of Assisi sit beside those of the Spanish Inquisition. CS Lewis's writings sit beside the histories of the Crusades.
It's not all Canon, but it is a library from which a Christian can learn from, the good and the bad. History and legend, story and anecdote, belief and heresy, all wrapped up together. Inconsistancies and debate abound, the saints and sinners both clamoring for their part in history.
And then let's go back to the Canon of Christianity, the New Testament and Christ's life. Just the Gospels, just the actual words of Christ. That's the real, core, fundamentals.
He speaks of Love: for God, for self and for fellow man. He speaks of responsibility: to God, to self and to fellow man. He speaks of equality and heals the lepers, walks with a woman by his side, and submits his life, but not his will, to the crowd and the blood they demanded.
And through it all is a theme often untouched, that the very Son of God, even at the cost of his precious life, must submit to the will of God for there were much bigger issues at stake than one man's life. That even with a death sentence (and we are all born under one) He had to live his life for other people, even though those people would kill him in the most horrid way available to them at the time. That he would not just suffer death, but humiliation in the process.
And that when he returned, three days later, he would show and speak to say that there is a reason for everything that happens and that we will understand better after we have crossed that threshold.
And lastly, that as Christians, all it takes to cross that threshold is the willingness to reach out our hand, believe, and step across in full faith that it is better on the other side. There is no worthiness test, for none could ever be fully worthy. That there is nothing required more than simply stating that you are human and accept the Salvation freely given.
Boy, that sounds much simpler than it feels, but that's all there really is to it, when you get down to the core of it, the real fundamentals about being a Christian. It's a convict on the table, the IV already in his arm, awaiting capital punishment when a man he's never met walks in and says, "Get up, walk free, I will take your place and die in your stead."
Everything else is just us humans trying to rationalize out what a Christian should do with their lives. It's a gift given to a committee and every member of the committee has a different idea of what should be done with it.
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posted
If you believe in an eternal Hell, killing someone and damning them to that Hell -- as, for example, described in Revelations -- is a pretty firm rejection of free will.
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Sopwith, I know the Sunday School Primer version of the God of Love.
I look forward to that God kicking the ass of the God who's going to kill me and send me to Hell.
posted
How so? Because God is choosing to end the life of someone who might well repent before dying. Unless, of course, you make the argument that God knows this person would not repent -- which pretty much makes a hash of free will, really.
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posted
Sure. I believe that ScottR made an analogy once on this topic involving his young children and a candy bar.
But if you know you're going to be mowing the grass, and your child is lying on the grass, do you mow it anyway out of respect for his free will? Because many Christians believe God's that kind of person, although they'd never say so; He'll run you over with the lawn mower if you don't move, and doesn't bother yelling more than once or twice to make sure you hear.
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posted
Wow, Tom, you've taken my entire life, all of those years I've lived so far, and pushed me back down to the faith held by a six year old.
Thanks, and I actually do mean thanks. I really do appreciate it, not with the least bit of sarcasm.
That I have gone through my travels and travails, my searching and seeking, my sins and shortsightedness and come back to the simple belief held by a child, the simple desire to both be good and do good, just because that is something that one should just simply do.
My friend, you may just understand more than you think. And you may have inadvertently hit on exactly what the real fundamentalism is.
Christ didn't turn away the children, but admonished his followers to let the children come to him, because how they believed was the purest and most genuine. And that their motivations were purely good, there were no machinations behind their belief, no agendas. Just faith, belief and goodness.
To be equated with that, means that I might be on the right path.
To know Salvation for what it is and attach no strings to it. To do Good just simply because it is the right thing to do. To judge those I meet purely on the basis of who that person is, with no preconceived notions. Now that is true enlightenment.
Thank you, once again.
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posted
"That I have gone through my travels and travails, my searching and seeking, my sins and shortsightedness and come back to the simple belief held by a child, the simple desire to both be good and do good, just because that is something that one should just simply do."
I'm glad that you find this comforting. Just remember, as you relax in the bosom of your comforting, simple faith, that your loving God -- the one to which you've written such beautiful paeans -- also intends to kill every single human being on this planet and torment the greater part of them for all eternity. By comparison, Al Qaeda only killed 3000, and didn't even touch their souls.
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In the long run, getting the lawn mowed isn't as important as your child's life. So I may yell and scream but if he doesn't get up, my bigger problem is the discipline of the child than the short grass.
But it's possible that God has a plan that is even more important than the lives of the people who have attempted to thwart him at every turn. And you can't say he yells once or twice, historically the people that have been mowed over in the Bible weren't just in the way. They were blatantly disobedient.
You can only take the "children" analogy so far. I believe that there's a difference between little kids who haven't learned any discipline, patience, or self-control, and full grown adults who've had every opportunity to make themselves available to God's will.
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posted
"I believe that there's a difference between little kids who haven't learned any discipline, patience, or self-control, and full grown adults who've had every opportunity to make themselves available to God's will."
So what, exactly, justifies sentencing a grown adult to an eternity of Hell -- after killing them yourself? Would it include merely being, for example, a Buddhist?
"historically the people that have been mowed over in the Bible weren't just in the way. They were blatantly disobedient."
If you believe in the Rapture, you believe that God will in fact kill billions of people who are just "in the way."
posted
PSI, if I'm damned to eternal torment because of an arbitrary system established by my Creator and my only option to save my soul is to spend my life puzzling out what He(?) meant without benefit of a guide or at least a couple of hints I can decipher to guide me...well...yes.
I've had some fun in my time, but not so much that I'd be willing to embrace an eternity of Pain, Suffering and Despair.
quote:my only option to save my soul is to spend my life puzzling out what He(?) meant without benefit of a guide or at least a couple of hints I can decipher to guide me...well...yes.
He gives us a guide, TommyD. You just choose to not recognize or validate it. That is your choice..
posted
Tom, I think what you're referring to is the Tribulation, and you are making assumptions about my beliefs...the qualifier "if" doesn't change that.
My belief is that the Tribulation probably isn't going to happen until the people in the world are so bad that there's no reason to keep them around.
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quote:And I SO hope God allows me to be present when He someday has a chat with Mr. Tom....
While I recognize that Tom is being inflammatory and most likely doesn't care what anyone says to him, I think it's important to note that it is exactly this kind of statement that so many non-theists find so off-putting.
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posted
Must have struck a nerve there with you, Tom.
We all die here on Earth, God never said otherwise. He sent word that there was an End coming, sometime, somewhere. I call that fair warning. And then gives us the choice of how we prepare for it and where we will end up.
A human life only lasts so long, and there are no guarantees given to any of us as to how long that may be. Old age, illness, accident, the actions of others, anything can end it, we are fragile.
What day the world will end should never have a single moment's bearing on one's life. Because I can guarantee this, one day you die. Why? That's just the way it is. You live your life accordingly. Judgement day may be thirty minutes from now, or thirty-thousand years away.
Death, however, can happen at any moment. It's nothing personal, no matter how much it may be taken personally. It happens to each and every one of us. What you do with that time, how ever short it may be, is your business.
If God says, "Here's the rules" and then sends his Son to further break it down to you and simplify them, and then you don't pay some heed to it, how can you hold God responsible for your actions?
You can wring your hands over the prospect of the End Times, but it's much better on an individual scale if you concentrate on the fact that your own time does end.
And if the End Times prophecies really, really get under your skin, just think of it this way: you're not born as the sheep or the goats, you choose entirely on your own.
Don't blame God, however, if you haven't made up your mind by the time the buzzer goes off. Salvation is just as valid one millisecond before the buzzer as it is a millenia ahead of time.
Surely you're not mad at God because he didn't let you personally take a peak at the clock so you'd know how long you've got to work with. He hasn't let any of the rest of us see it yet, either. And it wouldn't be fair for any of us to know.
This isn't about trying to get unfinished homework done before the class bell rings.
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posted
One of the comforting things about being damned to hell for all eternity is that I know I'll be in good company.
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posted
Tom, help me out. It seems to me that you’re defining fundamentalism as “belief that is irrational and dangerous” and then stating “fundamentalism irrational and dangerous.” And while I’ll grant that, if one accepts the definition, the statement is obviously true, I don’t see that it’s particularly useful. What am I missing?
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posted
PSI, what about all those people who believe the Tribulation is going to happen in their lifetimes? Am I justified in calling these people sick and evil?
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"He gives us a guide, TommyD. You just choose to not recognize or validate it."
While you were in fact responding to a quote from Trevor, this could as easily apply to me. So I'll reply.
God does NOT "give" us a guide. Here's what he does:
A man shows up at your house and demands that you remove your shirt. When you ask why, you explain that it's because anyone who is wearing a shirt ten minutes from now will be killed by a giant panda. When you ask why the panda will come, he explains that it's because he has SENT the panda, and believes that everyone who wears shirts deserves to die. Do you remove your shirt, obeying the man -- on the assumption that this panda exists? If so, haven't you just basically said that, by being a Christian, the terrorists win? That you're capitulating to terror because you're scared of the consequences, and lack the power to prevent it?
This is the "guide" we have. There's no proof of the consequences, or any evidence that the path exists; the people warning you of the danger serve the being that is directly endangering you.
God is the one choosing to kill me. He's the one choosing to sentence me to Hell. He is, if these things are true, my ENEMY. Why would I bend knee to this being?
(Note: Mormons get a free pass on this argument, in that they don't believe that God can choose whether you'd 'go to Hell' or not, and do in fact believe in higher standards independent of God.)
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"Salvation is just as valid one millisecond before the buzzer as it is a millenia ahead of time."
Why is there a buzzer? Is it kind of a mass murderer to let you know that, some time in the future, he'll be coming by?
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Dana, I'm defining fundamentalism as "a belief that morality is defined by one's selected god." This is, in a way, both broader and narrower than classical definitions of fundamentalism, but I think it's more useful. (Note: ideally, I'd use the word "fanaticism" here, but fewer Christians ever think of themselves as fanatics -- even if they DO believe in literal readings of the Bible and put Rapture bumper stickers on their car.)
If, for example, you can say something like, "My God would NEVER kill a billion people, no matter what this book says" you are not a fundamentalist. Heck, if the thought bothers you enough that you start looking for clever excuses -- like "My God must have a really, really good reason to kill a billion people, a reason I just don't understand right now" -- you're only on the fringe.
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Sopwith, I'm trying to decide whether you're being deliberately disingenuous or not about the methods of God's mass murder. I find it hard to believe that you haven't read the Book of Revelations, but also find it hard to believe that someone who has would describe it in tones as fluffy and antiseptic as "God has told us an End will come." Do you believe it to be purely metaphorical?
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