posted
The USA currently is the greatest nation on Earth, but it seems to have lost some of it's greatness. Why?
It is due to the average Americans attitude, a lot of Americans expect the US to get everything that it wants from the international community just because Americans are Americans. The US never has, nor ever will get things for this reason. The USA used to get what it wanted because of the common mans ability and willingness to lay down their current life and serve their nations military when it needed them. The common man would have done this patriotic duty regardless of their personal opinions. They believed that maintaining the integrity of our nation was more important than arguing amongst ourselves.
Today many Americans wouldn't even dream of serving a single tour of duty for our armed forces. Some Americans believe that they are too high in the social hierarchy of America to need to risk their lives. Others believe that Bush is the devil incarnate and that he is fighting an unjust war for no other reason than to save the "big business's" money. Then there are those who either aren't up to military caliber physically, or have moral issues with war. Then there are those who serve when needed, and those who would serve if they believed they were needed. Finally there are those who do serve irregardless of the political climate.
Those Americans who believe they "are too good" to serve their nation don't deserve to walk on the soil that countless men and women have given their lives for. Men and women have died to make our nation what it is, both through military service and social revolutions. Those who hate bush for his favor of big business. The truth is, the bread basket of the US elected him in, not the industrialized states. Bush is in Iraq because he felt that Iraq was a potential danger and the US could better the world through it's presence there. For those Americans who aren't up to the physical caliber, get out, play some ball, and don't just shoot a few hoops, exercise is supposed to hurt, the pain is your body adapting to hard work. Those who have moral issues with the military. Americans should respect you for doing what the founders did, standing your ground, but hopefully you have learned to stand your ground while supporting the men and women who are in harms way for you. To those who would serve if they felt that their country needed them. The time has come, troops are being forced to stay in harms way longer than they should have, because of our military's small numbers, you can fix that. Those Americans who serve no matter the political climate, no matter the likely hood of being in harms way, you are the Americans that still resonate the attitudes of our heritage. You know the pain of doing a nations grunt work, the fear the world has towards Americans. You are America's only true diplomats, you help those in need, and defend what our nation stands for.
posted
I'm not an American, nor do I hate Americans. But I do laught at them on occasion. See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation. If you said "most powerful", that would be a whole other thing altogether. But greatest? Not to me. Not to a whole lot of other people. And it's that arrogance that causes me to just dismiss that whole argument as futile and silly.
Yeah, go ahead. Claim you're the king of the castle. What does it matter? No one else is playing with you. We're all over here on the monkey bars.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will not join the military not because I am a coward, it's because I don't believe in wars. I don't think wars are effective. I think they mostly cause more problems then they solve. War is outmoded. Now we have the power to destroy the entire earth with just a press of a button. We can wreck the lives of so many people in just seconds. It's not to say that on some occasions wars are not nessasary. I fail to see, after research, examining the issue, how the war in Iraq was nessasary, especially with the evidence that has been unearthed. We are destroying the lives of these people, that is how I see it and it hurts. This is not what America should be about. We need to change. We need to be about taking care of humanity, looking out for people, not fighting wars with people who we can crush in seconds. I don't think that terrorism is a thing that can be fought with weapons. The problem is people have been trying the same way of doing things and in doing this they have created the climate for terrorism. The more people are oppressed, the angrier they get. The more they use the dirty and horrible tactics of terrorism. There has to be another way. Some sort of alternative. Something that is not as flashy as war, but is actually effective. It hurts knowing that so many soldiers and civilians are dying in this. It hurts that this keeps going on, endlessly. There has to be a better way and I don't think I am unpatriotic for thinking so. I want to live in a country that doesn't just say it's free and wonderful. I want it to live up to its ideals.Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, I'm one of those Americans with moral issues I'm afraid. I am bound and determined to make a difference some how though. I wrote the original post as an article i submitted for the school news paper in response to a friends dad, who is more or less stuck in Iraq for a few more months then he's supposed to be.
Synestheia- It sounds to me like you fall under the Moral issues catagory too. But what you need to do, is stop thinking of the military as cold calculating killers. They truly are diplomats to the common man over there. They are doing ten times more public service to the Iraqi people then they are harm. The military does calculate every move it makes. The only reason the Iraqi people dislike our soldiers is because we take so much time calculating that we aren't helping them fast enough.
[ December 14, 2004, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The context (that it's for the school paper) helps a little, I guess... but this sentence:
quote: Today many Americans wouldn't even dream of serving a single tour of duty for our armed forces.
among others, is a little hard to choke down from someone who hasn't and doesn't plan to serve.
quote:The common man would have done this patriotic duty regardless of their personal opinions. They believed that maintaining the integrity of our nation was more important than arguing amongst ourselves.
How are your moral objections different from a personal opinion? Why are these objections more important than maintaining the integrity of our nation? How can you comment on others arguing amongst ourselves when you're not putting your money where you mouth is?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it's more complicated than that. Civilians have died in this. Women and children. If this keeps happening, even the people who supported the war in the beginning to overthrow Saddam Hussein will turn against the US if they begin to see this as an occupation. Not to mention Abu Gharib. There just seems to be so many things about this war that are wrong. It's not unpatriotic to point this out. But, I am biased. I believe war is one of the greatest evils.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: For those Americans who aren't up to the physical caliber, get out, play some ball, and don't just shoot a few hoops, exercise is supposed to hurt, the pain is your body adapting to hard work.
Hmmm, exercise as cure is not an option for some problems.
How do you feel about those who serve as non-combant conscientious objectors?
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm not an American, nor do I hate Americans. But I do laught at them on occasion. See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation.
I have a Lebanese friend who essentially said the same thing about his country. Every nation has their enthusiastic patriots, and they are common among men of Stryker's age no matter where they're located on the globe.
As Neil Peart wrote in the song Territories:
"We see so many tribes -- overrun and undermined While their invaders dream of lands they've left behind Better people -- better food -- and better beer Why move around the world when Eden was so near?"
It's rare when people don't think the country they were born and raised in is the bestestest.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I came very close to putting my money where my mouth is, but due to my lack of the mental capability to end another human life.
The difference between moral issues and personal opinions is quite simply. By saying, "I can't live with myself if I end a human life." I'm having a moral problem with war. If I said, "This war is wrong because in 20/20 hindsight we didn't know enough to decide a course of action." is a personal opinion. Moral issues do not take away from your support of those who do serve, but some personal opinions do.
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let me also add that I believe in supporting soldiers by giving them the tools they need to complete their mission. And that when they return home they shouldn't have their benefits cut or limited. They need support in and out of the war. But, I don't believe in wars... I believe that war is morally wrong.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Civilians have died in this. Women and children.
Riiiight. Sure. Good to know that all of the men are expendable. And that just like the 1000th American casualty was a greater tragedy than the first 999, every death of women or child is worse than the death of one of the arrogent oppressive men.
Guess what, men can't dodge bullets.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
I'm that unusual one, then. I don't think Canada is the greatest nation in the world. It has a lot of problems. I think it's got a lot of good things going for it, and it's definitely better than arrogant USA, but the greatest? No. I think it's merely pretty good with reservations.
But then, I have high standards for what I'll call great. And at this point in time in history, I don't believe there is a single country in this world that I would classify as GREAT.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
*Growls* It's tragic when soldiers die too! Young men who have families, connections and it's all gone because of this war! When people go to war they should make damn sure that it's worth losing anyone's life over!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: How do you feel about those who serve as non-combant conscientious objectors?
I feel that they are doing their duty, they are standing for what they believe in and still supporting those in harms way. I would have tried to be a non-combatant, but I'm afraid i'd end up like the photographer in WE WERE SOLDIERS, and i'd never be able to live with myself.
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: I think it's merely pretty good with reservations.
If I'm on Parliament Hill on Canada Day and someone with a news Camera asks me how I feel about Canada, that's what I'm going to say.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:The difference between moral issues and personal opinions is quite simply. By saying, "I can't live with myself if I end a human life." I'm having a moral problem with war.
Is this unqualified? You wouldn't join the military if we were subject to an actual physical invasion? If you personally were attacked and one of the attackers dropped a gun, you wouldn't pick it up and shoot at another attacker pointing a gun at you? How about to defend your family?
I know I'm being difficult, but what I'm trying to ask is are you saying you can't live with yourself if you end a human life, period, and would rather die, or you can't live with yourself if you end a human life by following orders after having put yourself in a situation where there's a good possibility it will happen.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, mind you. But I think if that's what you're saying, you shouldn't be critizing people who are saying "I think there are things I would fight for, and this is not one of them."
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with you quib. There is no nation that i'd consider to be great at this point in history. But the US was for a while arguably a great nation and I'm implying that it could still be...
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I am bound and determined to make a difference some how though.
How about joining Americorp? That's a nice, peaceful alternative that will allow you to do some good.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm saying that if i were to take a human life I would sink into a deep depression and more than lily reason a life for a life. In the heat of the moment yes i would kill, but I would not be able to function as a normal human being once i realized what i'd done.
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I agree with you quib. There is no nation that i'd consider to be great at this point in history. But the US was for a while arguably a great nation and I'm implying that it could still be...
JT, you can argue about it all you like - that's your choice. But I'm still of the opinion that that greatness is only in the eyes of Americans, past tense or present. I've never considered the US to be a great nation, and the way things are going, likely never will. And one of the things that irritates me the most about Americans and their attitudes towards their "Great Nation" is their arrogance, their self-centredness, their egocentricities. The sheer inability to see anything beyond themselves. Of course I'm talking about the nation as a whole and not every single individual, but that was your argument - about the nation. But whatever. Go ahead and believe whatever you like. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was in Americorps I wish I was back in it. There I made more than I make now and I was helping children. If the country really wants to be great they would- Do more about poverty. It makes no sense that this is one of the richest nations and yet children still starve here or have inadequet education. Saying that the country is great doesn't make it so. Back in the days of segregation so many people talked about fighting for freedom in Vietnam when so many people did not have equal rights! I DESPISE hypocrasy!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
J T, I suspect you either under- or over- estimate yourself, but I'm not sure which to call it. Humans are amazingly adaptable suckers. I don't know you, maybe you really are that sensitive.
Although I would never be happy about the idea of taking another human life (I feel bad enough about killing mice) there are things I would kill for, and things I would die for. This war does not encompass them.
To me, in my opinion, your milage may vary, it takes more integrity to say "This war is not right" and protest it than to say "I'm not mentally suited for war so I'm going to sit this out, but everyone else who doesn't have my little hang-ups should go." I'm not saying I personally fall in the first category... I do not actively protest the war, and in a lot of ways I'm pretty apathetic. But I don't go spouting off about how noble it is and how great our country is or could be, either.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I agree with you quib. There is no nation that i'd consider to be great at this point in history. But the US was for a while arguably a great nation and I'm implying that it could still be...
When was this period, and would you mind outlining a few of the traits the US had during this period?
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Could never live with myself if I killed another human"? Well, in the first place, how do you know? Tried it, have you? In the second place, what comrade ElJay says is spot on. Humans are not only adaptable, we're also aggressive and good at rationalising. Men have killed men, women and children throughout history, and slept soundly afterwards. What makes you different? In all honesty, your statement strikes me as rather conceited. I am reminded of Asquith's daughter in 1915, recording in her diary that no-one in the lower classes could suffer as she did, they just didn't have the capacity for it. This at a time when men were dying by the thousands in the trenches.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, sorry I arrived so late now I have a great deal of nonsense to shake about. This is going to take a bit of time. Sigh...
quote: It is due to the average Americans attitude, a lot of Americans expect the US to get everything that it wants from the international community just because Americans are Americans. The US never has, nor ever will get things for this reason. The USA used to get what it wanted because of the common mans ability and willingness to lay down their current life and serve their nations military when it needed them.
The USA became great for many reasons, but primarily it is our unique, yes I say unique! value of freedom, personal freedom perfectly balanced by personal responsibility. Part of this is indeed the personal choice to fight for freedom, but much of our greatness is the results of the many times many paths that people have followed in their personal freedom. Paths that have lead to wealth and prosperity and conquest of the entire vast area of the USA. Freedom to think and read, and build and marry. All these provide the world that is even worth fighting for.
quote: See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation.
This is utter bland stupidity. Not even spectacular stupidity, if you do not think people want to be here, to have what we have, to be as prominent in world affairs as we are, you are simply ignorant.
quote: I don't think wars are effective. I think they mostly cause more problems then they solve.
War is the most effective way of creating social change ever conceived. In every measure of success the ability to beat your enemies into submission is number one.
quote: War is outmoded.
Out of fashion? Out of style, classics never go out of style. Being dead is the ultimate price, making the price high means making the conflict life and death.
quote: Now we have the power to destroy the entire earth with just a press of a button. We can wreck the lives of so many people in just seconds.
Half true, we can wreck our lives pretty well, but the Earth would barely notice. It is provincial to think so.
quote: We need to be about taking care of humanity, looking out for people, not fighting wars with people who we can crush in seconds.
We could Nuke the world in seconds but that is hardly an option, what justification do we have for it. Without that we are left with conventional military action. At that the rest of the world is much more even with us. Falluja was a marriage of skill and brilliance that cannot be given enough credit.
quote: I don't think that terrorism is a thing that can be fought with weapons.
Weapons can kill terrorists, dead terrorist are no longer terrorists who can commit terrorism!
quote:The problem is people have been trying the same way of doing things and in doing this they have created the climate for terrorism.
quote: The more people are oppressed, the angrier they get. The more they use the dirty and horrible tactics of terrorism. There has to be another way. Some sort of alternative. Something that is not as flashy as war, but is actually effective.
There is, it is called making democratic capitalist governments, holding them in place until they function and people get a taste of freedom, the thing that makes us great, and then remaining friends with them.
quote: It hurts knowing that so many soldiers and civilians are dying in this. It hurts that this keeps going on, endlessly.
Your mistake is the word endlessly, your perspective may make five years endless, to history it is a single chapter.
quote: There has to be a better way and I don't think I am unpatriotic for thinking so.
When you discover it, let everybody know, until then we should use the best we have.
quote: I want to live in a country that doesn't just say it's free and wonderful. I want it to live up to its ideals.
part of living up to ideals is trusting that they are universal, we are acting on our faith in freedom to make a better world, I would call that living our ideals.
quote: I'm that unusual one, then. I don't think Canada is the greatest nation in the world. It has a lot of problems. I think it's got a lot of good things going for it, and it's definitely better than arrogant USA, but the greatest? No. I think it's merely pretty good with reservations.
The only reason Canada is not a part of the US is that we do not want it. Half of Canada services us and the other half comes from us. It is something between our wife and our mistress, perhaps our whore would be the best analogy. But it is a great one!
quote: I'm saying that if i were to take a human life I would sink into a deep depression and more than lily reason a life for a life. In the heat of the moment yes i would kill, but I would not be able to function as a normal human being once i realized what i'd done.
You might think so but the odds are good that you would go on and not be much changed. It is certain that you descend from killers and have it in you.
quote: The only reason Canada is not a part of the US is that we do not want it. Half of Canada services us and the other half comes from us. It is something between our wife and our mistress, perhaps our whore would be the best analogy. But it is a great one!
Pretend there are about 50 more of that smiley along with it.
posted
"Those who hate bush for his favor of big business. The truth is, the bread basket of the US elected him in, not the industrialized states."
JT, I'm afraid you're committing a number of logical errors, here.
Your point in bringing up any opposition to Bush is to cast those people who would not support this war as opponents of Bush and his policies. You then casually dismiss their opposition by pretending as if their dislike of the man is rooted only in his big business background -- and then point out that the "breadbasket" of the country, rather than the industrialized states, elected him, as if this somehow disproves his big business connections and removes any reason for people to dislike Bush (and therefore to dislike this war).
That's five separate straw men in the space of two sentences.
I understand that you feel the need to do the "us vs. them" thing. But perhaps you should attempt to understand the "them" a bit better before you start generalizing about 'em.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that we have lost a sense of unity, community, and that extends to our dignity as individuals and our quality of life. It's one thing when a draft is unreasonable, but there is a segment of the population who is even opposed to paying taxes for the war, and that's a little disturbing. Forget duty and responsibility, what kind of relationship do we have with each other? I don't know what great means, but I wouldn't mind a nation of a people who cared for each other.
posted
Hate to agree with Tom, he doesn't need the stroking, but we have factories in the midwest, and if you want to pit industry against agriculture you need to go back to the Civil War.
The core of your argument is much on my mind though, something the Marquis De Sade is supposed to have said, that a perversion, practiced dillegently becomes normal, then needful, so that much of the difference between the Rural and Urban to me seems to be related to a different set of normal experiences. One that from my point of view is the normalization and defense of much that is perverse and destructive in the Urban areas.
quote: It's one thing when a draft is unreasonable
It is not so much unreasonable as unworkable, the current law and rules of conduct in training soldiers would not work for drafties. Right now all a soldier has to do is refuse to train, and all that they can do is yell at him. Not too hard to bare really.
quote: ElJay: I would mind continuing this conversation via IM or E-mail
I'm assuming you meant wouldn't mind, if I'm wrong, please disregard the following.
Actually, I'm going to be mostly away from the internet for the next 5 days or so, so I will have to forgo the pleasure. But I do want to tell you that the post that I edited out was mostly just to make a smart-a** response to KoM. I see these things that I think are funny, and type before I think. Bad habit. I hit edit as soon as the post came up because up until that point I was trying to seriously respond to your posts, and switching to cheap humor in the middle didn't seem the way to go.
Anyway, if you're serious about wanting to make a difference, I do hope you consider Americorp or some other sort of service work for a year or two between high school and college. It sounds to me that you're looking for a rite-of-passage type experience, and if you try to wait until after college there will be a lot of pressure on you to jump right in to the labor market and the "real world," and it will be a lot harder to take some time off for some sort of service work at that point. Plus, you'll have the added benefit that random strangers will take you more seriously on internet message boards if you have some sacrifice of your own behind your words exhorting others. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: quote: See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation.
This is utter bland stupidity. Not even spectacular stupidity, if you do not think people want to be here, to have what we have, to be as prominent in world affairs as we are, you are simply ignorant.
Then I guess I must be pretty ignorant. Thank you, B. C., for pointing out what an idiot I must be because I have a different opinion than you do. Because of course, your opinion matters more than anyone else's. {/sarcasm}
Yes, some people want to be in the US. But many other countries also have people clamoring to get in. Then there are a great many who leave the US voluntarily, including all your American expats. If you think that it's that people want what you have - homeless people; people living in poverty; people addicted to drugs, alcohol, whatever; people with no medical care; people with dead end jobs; high taxes; high cost of living - just to start the list - then you're mistaking the perception with the reality. The US is not the land of milk and honey. It's perceived - by some, not all - as the land of milk and honey, sure, but there is a huge difference between that perception and reality.
As for the US being in the front stage of world politics - that doesn't make the US great. That makes the US powerful. And again, there's a huge difference between the two. Has it not occurred to you that the US, in this situation, is also seen by many as a bully? Does that make the US great? Not really. Powerful, sure. But great? Huge difference there. And not everyone want to be prominent in world affairs. Again, for you to assume that what you perceive yourself to have is what everyone else wants is a delusion.
If the only argument - and yes, I would call this an argument from you, not a discussion - you can give is "Every intelligent person knows that . . ." or "you are incredibly ignorant to believe. . ." then all you have is a weak argument at best.
I'm not so ignorant or so weak to believe what you say simply because you say it. Nor am I ignorant enough to change my opinion just because you yell the loudest.
Guess what? Other people in the world don't always agree with Americans. Shocking, isn't it?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know, as a non-American, I didn't really think the USA was the greatest country in the world.
But now I've read BeanCounter's post and boy was I wrong. Packing my bags and waiting for my green card as I type.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And in the alternative, non-snarky version of the post above: Yeah, what quidscribis said.
BC I am not sure if you honestly believe what you typed. If you do than I suggest you sign up for a LOT of travelling in the next couple of years. Go to different countries (both developed and developing), mix with a heap of different people and try to understand what they really think, not what you think they do.
I would suggest that your opinion of how the rest of the world thinks about your nation would change slightly if you actually experienced it.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: The USA became great for many reasons, but primarily it is our unique, yes I say unique! value of freedom, personal freedom perfectly balanced by personal responsibility
Bean Counter, there are plenty of countries who share these values. I would suggest there at some who, at this point in time, have the balance better than the US does.
***
The thing is, I *know* that most (I'd say pretty much all) American Hatrackers don't think like this. I *know* BC is either completely ignorant or fishing for a reaction (or maybe a mixture of both). But the attitude still riles me.
Hmmmph. I think I'll go join quidscribis on the monkey bars. I'll be hanging upside down if you need me.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
What Quid and Imogen said. Yep. A lot of people have the will to live in France too, and it's not the best country at all. *sigh* *rejoins Imogen and Quidscribis on the monkey bars*
[ December 15, 2004, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes ! Welcome to France ! All who love freedom : expression freedom, opinion freedom, life freedom !! All people is welcome !
Excuse-me, I am a little too patriot, like you JT. About Bush, he isn't the devil. Because he is a man like you or me. He just looks Fox news too.
No, i am French and i like Americans for all they give to me. But as friend, I want to show you your error because you are too quick to act. I want just help you to go back for a step to look the global situation. This is not a will to make bad.
Boy ! A banana coktail please ! Posts: 1189 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: There is, it is called making democratic capitalist governments, holding them in place until they function and people get a taste of freedom, the thing that makes us great, and then remaining friends with them.
Hehe...I usually stay away from such threads, being a poor 3rd world denizen...but I found this, written by Bean counter, amusing. Why? Because I live in a country who was once on the other side of the stick. Because of policies like that, we had a brutal U.S. supported military dictatorship for 20 years. Way to go. Get over it. Many people here in Brazil resent your country because of it. Different times, maybe...but the thought pattern leading to such measures is still there.
Posts: 1785 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:To me, in my opinion, your milage may vary, it takes more integrity to say "This war is not right" and protest it than to say "I'm not mentally suited for war so I'm going to sit this out, but everyone else who doesn't have my little hang-ups should go."
Okay, how is it Stryker gets away with not addressing this killing point? I mean really, if the response to this belongs on AIM or in email, so does the original post on this topic.
Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
As an aside, this may be immoral and unpatriotic, but I'd much rather be alive than dead. I'm not sure if there is anything I'd fight in a war for. I also don't think I should serve my nation in any way. My family - yes. Nation? No.
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Pretend there are about 50 more of that smiley along with it.![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
quid
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
All who love freedom : expression freedom, opinion freedom, life freedom !! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
All people is welcome !![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
