quote:Or perhaps that a whole bunch of things which were never humanitarian projects are claimed as such.
This is the subject of debate. The difference in opinion is why the subject was brought up. In other words, the author of the article likely used the current controversy as a platform to introduce this new idea. Likely, he doesn't care about convincing people that the U.S. is more or less generous than X country. He's probably more interested in getting people to consider that the sacrifice of American lives and large amounts of American money in order to stop genocide or to liberate a country from a brutal dictator deserve to be hailed as humanitarian efforts. And he showed great rhetorical deftness in doing so, knowing he couldn't make the entire case in a single article.
quote:As I said before, this is a bad example unless your preaching to the choir. The conclusions one draws will be based on ones perceptions of the justness of the Iraq war.
Perhaps the person wasn't actually trying to change perceptions about the topic you thought he was. Perhaps he was trying to inject a new line of thought into the debate and didn't intend to convince anyone of the point you thought important.
quote:Since those perceptions vary widely, so will peoples conclusions. As a Lawyer you should no enough about persuasion to know that.
As a professor, you should know that the introduction of new ideas into the public discussion of an issue happens slowly and involves challenging deeply held notions in unexpected ways.
As a soon-to-be lawyer, I know enough about persuasion to understand that different tactics apply to different situations. The introduction of a new, paradigm-shifting point of view has immense value in a long-term attempt to win hearts and minds. Of course, if one is attempting to win over a defined audience with a single rhetorical attempt, one would take into greater account the mistaken preconceptions of ones audience.
quote:If you don't, I hope my opponent hires you if I'm ever brought to court.
Keep wishing that. Misplaced hubris is an excellent quality in an opponent.
posted
I heard George W Bush donated US$15M to help the tzunamied nations. Is this possible? FIFTEEN MILLION?! That's nothing (for tUSoA)!
Is there any mistake in the press or are proportions out of that man's mind?
I'm donating 20 NIS. Hey, that's what I can afford... He can definitely do more than that!
In schule today, a special prayer was formed for the ones in need.
The irony is, though, that no-one in Israel will be prepared for the big blow, ovedue now for 40 years. My own home will crash down and tumble down the valley like a boulder colliding with anything in its way.
[ January 01, 2005, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
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posted
This is one disaster that seems to have touched every corner of the world. Sweden may have over 3,500 of its people killed while vacationing in the tsunami area, Germany may have almost that number and so does the USA. The bodies will never be found as many were washed out to sea and others will be eated by scavenging crocodiles and sharks. Also, when the floods hit Caracus, Venezuela a few years ago thousands of bodies were buried in mud. Truly agonizing for the victim's families. It's really sad to look at pictures of missing people (here's photos from a Swedish site):
Our prayers should go out to the survivors for them to find comfort in knowing this is not the only part of our existence.
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posted
My uncle lives in Italy, and he and his wife found that vacations were very cheap and wonderful in Thailand. I think others discovered this as well. They did not go this year for the first time in ten years. They would have been right there on the beach. My point being that this is a reasonable vacation spot for many, many people.
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posted
Okay, I'm confused. I just read two articles with conflicting information can someone help me make sense of this?
quote:In Tamil Nadu, India's hardest-hit state, health officials said it was crucial to clean up quickly, particularly in getting the dead buried.
"There is a very high risk of epidemics breaking out in all these places," said Dr. Sathish Amarnath, a microbiologist who heads the infection control department at Manipal Hospital in Bangalore. "Decaying bodies are bacteria factories. The bodies must be quickly disposed of."
quote:But Dana Van Alphan of the Pan American Health Organization issued a statement declaring there was no danger of corpses contaminating water or soil because bacteria and viruses cannot survive in dead bodies. The organization said it issued the statement, hoping to avert mass burials of tens of thousands of unidentified victims.
Van Alphan said it was important for survivors to be allowed to identify loved ones and urged authorities in tsunami-stricken countries to avoid burying unidentified corpses in mass graves.
"I think that psychologically, people have to be given the chance to identify their family members," she said. "Whatever disease the person has while still alive poses no threat to public health in a corpse."
The World Health Organization has also said dead bodies are not an immedieate threat to health.
"The health hazard associated with dead bodies is negligible. The collection, disposal, burying and/or cremation of corpses requires important human and material resources which should instead be allocated to those who survived and remain in critical condition," the organization said in a news release after the 1999 earthquake in Turkey.
Now I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems to me that burying the dead to avoid them contaminating water sources would be crucial. I understand about wanting to give people a chance to identify and bury bodies, but surely leaving bodies around to rot in the sun is not only a threat to health but a severe psychological blow to the people living nearby - I think I'd want the bodies removed and disposed of.
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posted
We've been seeing the same thing in the news. I don't understand it either. And yes, I also always assumed that dead bodies were bacteria factories.
One person on the news said that the whole reason the announcement was made that the dead bodies were essentially harmless was because they wanted people to focus on rescuing the living when in actuality they were all panicking about burying the dead and ignoring the injured. In other words, lying to save lives. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Wow...the first post on this thread is haunting. At that point, they knew for certain that 300 or more people had died in Sri Lanka. And look at the stats now.
It's been a long and depressing week.
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quote:And he showed great rhetorical deftness in doing so, knowing he couldn't make the entire case in a single article.
Rhetorical deftness? Bleh. Crap like this is precisely why I so dislike most op-ed writing, regardless of the argument being put forward. And boy does it ever not belong in this thread.
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posted
It was exactly as appropriate as people making negative comments about the extent of our aid and comparing it to our expenditures liberating Iraq.
posted
There was one post to that effect. It was the op-ed piece that needlessly stoked the flames. But then, that's pretty much all most op-ed writing is good for.
--------
When Canada announced its initial aid package I was disappointed to see that it was a paltry $4 million. I'm quite aware of the extent of Canada's international aid in other areas, and I don't think that makes my disappointment illegitimate. What did change things was when the aid package increased in value by an order of magnitude a couple of days later, and I thought "I guess I spoke too soon. I'm glad I was wrong."
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quote:But Dana Van Alphan of the Pan American Health Organization issued a statement declaring there was no danger of corpses contaminating water or soil because bacteria and viruses cannot survive in dead bodies.
Junk. Something else is going on.
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posted
It's up to 155,000 now. For a few days, the numbers held fairly steady, and I was hoping they wouldn't go up too much more....
Also, in relation to the U.S. contribution, the military and transport contribution is NOT counted in the 350m pledge.
To quote a CNN article:
quote:Powell has said the United States may add to its $350 million pledge, and he told CNN the figure does not cover the total U.S. contribution.
"Our Department of Defense is spending tens of millions of dollars more as we dispatched two carrier groups, a regular big aircraft carrier group and a Marine amphibious group to the region," he said. "And private donations are significant."
posted
In Sri Lanka, on the news last night, they confirmed 29,755 dead in this country. There are still 10,000 or so missing. Information out of the north and east where the Tamils are in control is sketchy at best - they have not opened the borders wide enough yet. They may have thousands more dead and just aren't telling us about it.
The way this is going, don't be surprised if it hits 200,000 dead. Before we start counting epidemic victims.
Relief is slow.
In Sri Lanka, the east and north, the Tamil areas, had a lot of land mines. Some areas were cleared, but the tsunami dislodged a lot of them, and so travel in some areas is no longer safe due to that. Added to that, though, are armed people hijacking relief trucks. For what purpose? To sell? For their own people? No idea. So now, there are no volunteers to deliver goods in that area, and it's a heavily hit area.
posted
Re: risk of epidemics passed via dead bodies
This risk has been known to be negligible for some time. The bacteria and viruses which cause infectious disease epidemics are propagated in living tissue -- e.g., corpses don't develop tuberculosis or cholera or malaria, for example.
Note that there are bacteria which act to decompose bodies, of course, and there is subsequent likely contamination of water supplies. However, that is not the same as propagating an infectious disease. The issue of potable water supply is a big enough concern in itself, but the risk of epidemics because of decomposing tissue isn't.
Crowded facilities and poor hygiene facilities will increase the likelihood of epidemic spread of disease. Not because of dead bodies, but because of the living conditions of the live ones.
posted
I don't think having a quarrel to know how much a state give to help South Asia is the good way. USA give 150 millions $ : thanks for South Asia.
Another think is worse. In France (i don't know if that was same in others countries), at TV, a spot during commercials has appeared. He was make by Cellular provider companies to help people to make a gift. You just have to send a SMS to a telephone number and you automatically give 1€ to an association like red cross. The idea will be good, if the cost of the SMS is free.
But The SMS cost is added to the 1€ gift !
And when it's known these companies have 80% benefice on SMS... (SMS cost for user : around 0.50 €, real cost for Providers : 0.04€)
They want to use the catastrophe to make us consumers. Shame on them !
posted
Wow, guys, I'm sorry so many of you hated the article. I certainly didn't mean to upset anyone.
I just wanted to point out that even though the government hadn't pledged much to start with, the American people would contribute far more than the government ever could. It has bills to pay with a limited budget. Their discretionary cash doesn't approach the combined force of the American people.
I'm also a little surprised that everyone thinks Bush should have pledged more to start with. He doesn't pay the bills, Congress does. He pledged what he knew he could get from Congress. After that, the accountants and committees had to take over. He never said we wouldn't send more than that. That was what he knew could be counted on.
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quote:President Bush on Monday tapped two former presidents -- his father, President George H.W. Bush, and his predecessor, President Clinton -- to lead a nationwide fund-raising campaign to help victims of the Asian tsunamis.
"I ask every American to contribute as they are able to do so," Bush said in the White House's Roosevelt Room, the two former presidents at his side.
The two men are to lead an effort to encourage the American people and American businesses to support, through private contributions, non-governmental and international organizations relief and reconstruction to areas devastated by the tsunamis, Bush said.
Thanks Sara also for the info on the infectious disease spread, I was wondering about the conflicting reports. Does the fact that this is in a tropical climate make things more succeptible to disease spreading faster?
posted
That is very cool. Cheers to the kid who kept her head on, and to the adults who listened to her.
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quote: Does the fact that this is in a tropical climate make things more succeptible to disease spreading faster?
Depends on the disease. Some propagate better in wet conditions, some in dry.
The conflict in the reports Belle cited can be attributed in part to imprecise terminology in the articles, IMO. That is, the Pan American Health Organization probably more accurately "issued a statement declaring there was no danger of corpses contaminating water or soil because [the types of] bacteria and viruses [which cause infectious disease epidemics] cannot survive in dead bodies."
It is more difficult to reconcile the direct quotation of Dr. Sathish Amarnath, the microbiologist heading the infection control department at Manipal Hospital in Bangalore: "There is a very high risk of epidemics breaking out in all these places .... Decaying bodies are bacteria factories. The bodies must be quickly disposed of." He may have been misquoted, or he may have misunderstood the question, or he may just have been misinformed (although that would seem odd for an infection control expert for that area). However, the information from the PAHO is what we are standardly taught in medical school, is consistent with the conversations about Doctors Without Borders that I've had with infectious disease experts, and is part of the WHO consensus statement on natural disasters, including those in tropical climates.
[Good for the smart girl with the strong voice! ]
[ January 03, 2005, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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Thanks for your clear explanation. It helps . . . A LOT! Would you mind if I copied it into my blog while giving you credit? Other people have the same questions.
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posted
Nathan brought home a fundraiser from his school today for the relief efforts.
Parents and friends are being asked to pledge 1-5 cents per minute while the kids work math problems for 100 minutes.
*smiles sadly*
Nathan attends a school that is Title 1, so even $5.00 is big for a lot of the families there.
He has been following the news on NPR and I think this will help him to feel better about being able to do something concrete -
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posted
Wow, Sara, thanks for that information on handling dead bodies in widespread disasters. I absolutely LOVE it about hatrack that you can find out the real story here on almost anything. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Oh, I gave blood today thinking that surely the worldwide supply of blood will be depleted by the aftermath of this disaster. But looking at the Red Cross website turned up nothing to that effect, and when I asked the phlebotomist today she had no idea either.
Do you know the answer to that question, Sara? Will it be helpful for people in the U.S. and Europe to give blood for this disaster? I know that whole blood lasts about a month if kept refrigerated, (longer for plasma or other blood products) and I reasoned that even if blood is not shipped from here halfway around the world directly to south Asia, yet the supply in the area would probably be greatly depleted, requiring blood from a wider area to make it up, and so on in a ripple effect that could propagate around the world. Is that true?
It seems to make sense to me and yet I don't hear calls for blood donation, so I wonder if there's something I'm not seeing? I'm curious to know.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I suspect that most of the injuries involved drowning and blunt blows. There was probably an increase in blood needed, but not as much as if there was a lot of shrapnel or falling buildings involved. The buildings that fell were inundated with water, and... well, the injured in those cases wouldn't have had much chance to need blood.
Also, it may be that the cost of transporting it oversease compared the relative benefit is prohibitive. There may very well be many healthy asians who are donating blood now to take care of the need.
Anyway, I can't right now due to my happy condition. I usually would. I donated platelets for quite a while.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Now that you mention it . . . There's been no call for blood on the news or anywhere on television or anything that I've noticed, and we've been watching the news much more so than usual due to it affected our part of the world. There was a call for blood a few months back due to some emergency or other, so I do know that it does occasionally happen.
I suspect that Amka's right in her theory. If I remember to, I'll see about doing a search. Tomorrow, though, not today.
Sara, yes, it will help. I get a lot of emails asking all sorts of questions, and it's come up. Thank you.
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quote: On December 24th there was a magnitude 8.1 earthquake more than 500 miles southeast of Tasmania near New Zealand, with a subsequent aftershock 6.1 a little later in the morning that same day.
quote:On December 26th, the magnitude 9.0 earthquake struck at the intersection of the Australian tectonic plate and the Indian tectonic plate. This is the devastating tsunami tragedy that we have all heard about in the Indian Ocean.
quote: On December 27th, 20 whales beached themselves 110 miles west of Hobart on the southern island state of Tasmania.
What is interesting about this is that the same place where the whale beachings have been taking place over the last 30 days is the same general area where the 8.1 Australian earthquake took place, and this is the same area where they are doing these seismic tests. Then 2 days after the Australian tectonic plate shifted, the 9.0 earthquake shook the coast of Indonesia.
quote: there is strong evidence that suggests that oil exploration activities have induced earthquakes in the past.
This is not yet being reported by major news sources that I know of, so this may be complete bull. On the other hand, who knows? It could also be Stoopid Human Tricks.
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posted
On the other hand all of the quakes would fit the pattern of those two tetonic plates shifting too and have absolutely nothing to do with the geological exploration. I am extremely skeptical that anything man made short of detonating huge nukes deep into the earths crust would cause this.
posted
While oil exploration might cause whales and dolphins to beach themselves -- it's conjectured that extremely loud noises will cause them to become disoriented, return too rapidly to the surface and thus get the bends -- there is no chance whatsoever that exploratory "thumping" will trigger an earthquake. The scale of the difference in magnitudes of the energies involved is too great. Kinda like expecting a train to be derailed by an ant crawling across the tracks.
posted
Talked to my friend who is a planetary scientist (they do tetonic plates all over the solar system not just earth) and she says it is total bunk not to mention that the whale picture looks pretty clearly photoshopped.
posted
How does the whale picture look photoshopped (other than cropping)? And why would someone have done it? There are tons of archived photos of beached whales and dolphins.
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posted
Yeah, I think its the mother and kid, I saved it and blew it up and there are some odd blurry spots around the figure of the humans and the shadows aren't quite right.
posted
Yeah, I can't put my finger on why exactly, but the mother and child do *not* belong in that picture. Something about the color and lighting....
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posted
On the other hand, could the whales have responded to the shifting of the plates, as many land animals are said to act in ways that predict earthquakes?
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quote: SICKENED police last night blasted merciless scumbags who stole cash collected for tsunami disaster victims.
One senior cop said: “These people really are plumbing new depths.
“Stealing from charity is bad enough at the best of times but when millions are in need it is beneath contempt.”
Thefts of collection boxes and buckets were revealed in Salisbury, Brighton, South Wales and Bedfordshire.
The robbery spree came amid chilling reports of RAPE, KIDNAP and LOOTING in the disaster zone and at homes of lost European tourists.
Female survivors sheltering at refugee camps in Sri Lanka are said to have been attacked by sexual predators.
And 12-year-old Swedish lad Kristian Walker is thought to have been SNATCHED from a Thai hospital by a paedophile.
The most shocking robbery in Britain was at Salisbury cathedral.
Heartless crooks used a wheelchair to remove a heavy padlocked collection box.
They pushed it 400 yards to a dark street and smashed it open.
Cathedral official Alun Williams said: “This is very sad. At a time when people are showing so much concern and generosity it is particularly disappointing someone could do this.”
Fortunately, the box had recently been emptied and the thieves only bagged a modest haul.
The Sun immediately re-started the fund with a three-figure donation.
Dean of Salisbury the Very Rev June Osborne said: “We’re very appreciative.”
The robberies were revealed as the death toll from the Boxing Day disaster, in which huge waves engulfed coastlines after an Indian Ocean earthquake, reached an estimated 150,000.
Britons have raised £60million for emergency aid programmes. But the nation’s generosity failed to move a thief who lifted a collection bucket from the bar at Brighton’s Trafalgar pub.
The emptied bucket, containing several hundred pounds made up of notes and coins, was found dumped in the ladies’ loo.
Youths made off with a bucket containing £70 donated by fans at Pontypridd rugby club’s game against South Wales rivals Caerphilly.
A thief who took more than £125 collected at Royal Oak in Lidlington, Beds, became so guilt-ridden he returned it — after word spread police and The Sun were trying to find the culprit.
Reports of rape and sex assault in Sri Lanka came from a women’s group.
It said it had been told of “incidents of rape, gang rape, molestation and physical abuse of women and girls in the course of unsupervised rescue operations”.
In Thailand thieves disguised as police and rescuers looted suitcases and hotel safes around the resort of Khao Lak, where up to 3,000 died.
Sweden sent seven cops to the area to probe the mystery disappearance of Kristian Walker.
The boy, injured in the disaster, vanished from his hospital bed. A doctor quoted by a Swedish paper said: “He was taken away by a man.”
In Sweden itself, the government kept the names of the nation’s 2,500 missing tourists secret after thieves broke into victims’ homes.
posted
As an update, the death toll now sits at 228,601 dead, with over 173,000 dead in Indonesia alone. Sri Lanka has death tolls of over 38,000.
In Sri Lanka, suicide is now a problem. People whose children have died or their entire family or village wiped out don't know how to deal with their grief. I haven't heard any firm numbers, unfortunately. I doubt, though, that it's limited itself only to Sri Lanka. I'll try to get more information for you.
If you've pledged to donate, but haven't given your money yet, please do. It's needed.
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