posted
Archives you say? I assumed it was either Doku or Sifa-dias, although I have always been confused to who sifa-dias was. there really are few other options. It was either the guy who ordered the army built (sifa-Dias) and wanted to cover his tracks or it was the guy that was in league with palpatine (Dooku) but still wasn't openly Dark sided. If you remember in Episode II when Obi-Wan confronts Jenga Fett, Jenga claims to have only been contacted by a man named Tyrannis about being cloned. So that kind of has me leaning towards the idea that it was probably Dooku who did the erasing since Dooku and Tyrannis are the same person. If he was the guy that recruited Jenga Fett, then he probably was the guy who would want to cobver it all up and if I recall correctly wasn't the army ordered 10 years befor AotC? If so, then Count Dooku was still considered a good guy and would have had free roam of the archieves and a reason to cover his trail.
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I wonder why the Sith refers to themselves as the Dark Side. I think it would be more interesting if they referred to themselves as something more positive, like the "pro force" or "anti dogma" branch of the Jeidi order.
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quote: Windu and Sidious face off. I strongly believe Sidious could have beat him, but acted like he was being defeated as soon as Anakin was nearby.You're exactly right about this. First of all, he could've Force-pulled his lightsaber from the fall. Second, there were three other lightsabers close at hand. Third, no Dark Lord of the Sith ever required a lightsaber to fight effectively.
I disagree. First off, the change in Sideous' face indicates that he is seriously taxing his ability. Sideous might be allowing himself to lose, in order to get Anakin on his side, but even then, he's playing it way closer than I would expect of someone that selfish.
Second: From what I understand (apparently it's discussed in the novelization) Windu can make use of the dark side without going over. He allows himself to be angry when he fights. Supposedly the purple light saber is an indication of this.
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Labyrinth of Evil, by James Luceno (written with GL's approval and access to the scripts as well as interviews with GL and part of a trilogy that includes Ep III and a book just afterward) sort of explains the Syfodias mystery (though I have to reread it).
Syfodias was a real Jedi. He may have been killed by Dooku. His ordering of the clones was due to a force-induced vision. The fact is, however, I can't remember whose perspective some of this was from. If it was Obi-Wan, then it's suspect. If it's Dooku or Sidious, then not. I don't really like it. Makes more sense if Dooku killed the Jedi Master Syfodias and impersonated him on Kamino, after he became Sidious' apprentice. I'll reread it. But Syfodias was real.
Incidently, this site has some really good essays on the prequels. Chris linked to this page last week, I think.
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If I recall correctly, Palpatine specifically states that the only one who could use the midichlorians to create life was a Sith Lord. That's why Anakin must use the dark side to save Padme.
He also says that that Sith Lord was murdered by his apprentice (the implication being that Palpatine was the apprentice) while the lord was asleep. He also says that despite being able to control life, he was unable to save his own life. That's not the same effect that Qwi Gon acheived. Qwi Gon doesn't have the ability to control life, but he learns to cheat death, which is almost, but not quite, the opposite of what Palpatine is talking about.
Also, it seems to me that Palpatine goes through apprentices because he doesn't want any of them to become powerful enough to destroy him. He sets them up, so who knows how many he may have had?
Edit: Question mark.
[ May 23, 2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Arnold ]
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ryan makes a good point. In the extended universe, the Empire made a prototype Death Star first, to be sure that all the bits and pieces worked. It was simply a scaffold framework with a bridge, really (and kept, incidentally, at the Maw Installation - an Imperial think tank).
BUT, even if that is not the case, no one ever said that the Death Star took 18 years to build. All we know is that 18 years later, it IS built. It could have taken five years to build, or eight, or something. The only thing is, with an active Senate opposing the Emperor, the USE of such a weapon might not have been feasible.
It could have been simply a space station during the time of the Senate (as it was probably drawn up in committee... sans "planet destroying weapon") and was only free to be used after the Senate was dissolved. Remember the line about how the Emperor would keep control, and the answer was "fear of this battlestation". He may have been holding it in check until he dissolved the Senate, so he could unveil it and maintain control.
On top of this, the second death star was hardly finished, and seemed to be only about a third of the way finished. If it took 2+ years to get to that point, the entire project could have taken 6-10 the first go round.
Then again, it may just be another symptom of Lucas' lack of concern for minor details. Such as Obi-wan referring to Palpatine as "The Emperor" in the Temple when Palpatine was in the Senate announcing the change to a Galactic Empire. Or R2 having heretofore unknown thrusteres that he seems to use all the time - except when falling off a ship on Dagobah, or off a skiff on Tatooine, or...
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Does any of the novels discuss R2's background? Is he special in any way or is he simply a lucky little droid?
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On the subject of Sifo Dyas: One of Count Dooku's first missions was to order a clone army as Sifo Dyas, who was on his way to Kamino. Sifo Dyas was discovered by the Jedi when he moved to Allistare.
Count Dooku had Billigo (a Jedi master of disguise and possibly a changeling) pretend to be Sifo Dyas and order an army cloned from the bounty hunter, Jango Fett.
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quote:He cut off your hand, you wanted revenge." Imagine how often and in how many ways he's been saying such things to Anakin over the years they've been talking.
That's a very good point. They needed to show a few more scenes with Palpatine justifying such actions to Anakin in II and III. Problem is, they'd have had to be written very well not to clunk on the screen.
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Having just returned from the movie, I can say it was good - much better than I and II - but not great. There were too many moments where I thought to myself, "I could do better".
My main dislike of the movie was the terrible handling of Greivous (sp?). Anyone who watched the Clone Wars cartoon will know how cool he was (as a villain I'd rate him near to or above Vader). In Episode III, all we got of his distinctive style was his flip into the wheely thing. In the Clone Wars, you got a sense that he was able to defeat Jedi masters without the force. In the movie, you got the vibe that he stole all his light sabres from sleeping younglings.
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We just went and saw it tonight. I liked it much better than Episodes I and II, and I have to admit it was cool to find out how Vader got to be Vader. However, (and I'm probably more sensitive to this because I'm pregnant) I thought the "birth" scene was horrible. First of all, Padme looked like she was constipated, not giving birth. Secondly, the babies appeared not to have/need umbilical cords. Bad birth scenes always tick me off.
Other than that I don't have a lot of complaints. There were a few obviously-plot-driven choices that happened (such as the man who adopts one of the babies at the end) being sent away instead of killed, etc., that I would have liked a bit more thought put into.
posted
Your main complaint is seriously the birthing scene?
I thought the OBGYNDroids were a little silly, but other than that, how do you really judge a birthing scene? Suppose they drugged her up? Epideral and all that jazz.
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So sorry. Next time I'll check with you before posting about something that ticked *me* off. Even with an epidural you have to push. If Padme could push 2 babies out while lying completely prone on her back then more power to her. I want her as my doula.
quote:My main dislike of the movie was the terrible handling of Greivous (sp?). Anyone who watched the Clone Wars cartoon will know how cool he was (as a villain I'd rate him near to or above Vader). In Episode III, all we got of his distinctive style was his flip into the wheely thing. In the Clone Wars, you got a sense that he was able to defeat Jedi masters without the force. In the movie, you got the vibe that he stole all his light sabres from sleeping younglings.
If you ask me, it was the Clone Wars cartoon that dropped the ball with Grievous. People don't seem to realize that that cartoon seriously exaggerates character's abilities. For heaven's sake, one episode had Mace Windu take out an entire droid army all by himself. He literally destroyed about half of them with his bare hands! If the character was really supposed to be that powerful, he would have cleared the arena on Geonosis in Eps. II all by himself! The cartoon made Grievous look WAY more powerful than he is supposed to be, and now many fans blame the movie for making him seem lame in comparison.
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Honestly other than seeing the OBGYN Droids with their strange instruments that really didn't lool like they helped the birthing process along, I missed a lot of that scene because my brother sitting next to me was laughing so much at it.
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quote:There were a few obviously-plot-driven choices that happened (such as the man who adopts one of the babies at the end) being sent away instead of killed, etc., that I would have liked a bit more thought put into.
That "man" was Bail Organa, and has a long history in the, well, history of SW. I actually would have liked to have seen a lot more of him.
A point: they were supposed to be "taking" the babies to save them, so I guess that's the equivalent of a c-section? It would explain why she wasn't pushing, at least.
One thing that I was reminded of when watching that scene: GL's kids are adopted. I am not bashing adoption. I think it's wonderful. So no one get on me for that, please; this comment has nothing to do with my stance on or view of adoption (that it's a wonderful practice and should be encouraged in many cases.)
But GL, who is making this movie, really should have at least watched "A Baby Story" or something to get a feel for what a human birth and the process that surrounds it is like. I think he didn't do his homework very well on that, and it shows. Because he had no personal experience, he assumed things about it that someone who has been through it (either as a participant or even just being there) or who had done good research would not, in my opinion, have assumed.
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quote:So sorry. Next time I'll check with you before posting about something that ticked *me* off. [Razz] Even with an epidural you have to push. If Padme could push 2 babies out while lying completely prone on her back then more power to her. I want her as my doula. [Big Grin]
space opera
I actually, I don't think she was pushing at all. Iirc, they had to surgically remove the babies, becuase she was on the way out and didn't have the strength for natural birth...
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I saw it last night, and was, on the whole, satisfied.
OSC's comments about this being an epic story that works, even when the details of plot and dialogue don't, are spot on.
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quote: Or R2 having heretofore unknown thrusters that he seems to use all the time - except when falling off a ship on Dagobah, or off a skiff on Tatooine, or...
Originally that bothered me as well, along with the little hand that R2 uses to grab the com device from Anakin in Episode III. Neither of these accessories appear in the later movies.
But then I got to thinking. R2 is an astromech droid aboard the Rebel Blockade Runner, a ship that sees a lot of action before episode IV. Furthermore, the Rebel Alliance is spending all its money building X-Wings and what not. In my mind R2 saw a lot of wear and tear over the next 19 odd years; his thrusters malfunctioned and some of his more limber appendages rusted out. No one repaired these units because he's just a little astromech droid and they've got bigger fish to fry.
Posts: 194 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Neo-dragon, I wasn't expecting him to flip out and destroy all kinds of Jedi - I know the cartoon overdoes it for fun. I was expecting him to invert; I was expecting him to be cool. He was not. Much sadness.
Posts: 254 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Still, R2 totally took out two droids in that hanger bay, blew a buzz droid off Anakin's ship with a laser, and went ballistic in Grievous' chamber to create a distraction...
...then got punked by a jawa who he had sensors to detect.
Then again, there's the light saber prowess decline of Vader and Obi-Wan, too. Maybe in 19 years, the Galaxy just lost its skillz.
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Still, R2 totally took out two droids in that hanger bay, blew a buzz droid off Anakin's ship with a laser, and went ballistic in Grievous' chamber to create a distraction...
...then got punked by a jawa who he had sensors to detect.
Then again, there's the light saber prowess decline of Vader and Obi-Wan, too. Maybe in 19 years, the Galaxy just lost its skillz.
Though, R2D2 tried to shock the droid when Obiwan and Skywalker were in that force field, he just got kicked over.
As for Vader and ObiWan, we never saw Vader fight after he got put in the suit...his injuries might have impaired him. Also, neither of them would have had to use their lightsabers in 20 years...so they were likely out of practice.
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Though we don't know if they kept hunting after #3 was over. For the most part, they seemed to be wiped out at the end of #3...and we know they couldn't have searched to hard since ObiWan was never found, and neither was Yoda.
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quote:Originally posted by Lupus: Though we don't know if they kept hunting after #3 was over. For the most part, they seemed to be wiped out at the end of #3...and we know they couldn't have searched to hard since ObiWan was never found, and neither was Yoda.
Was anyone else kind of disappointed that the whole Jedi purge was executed nearly instantaneously by Clone Troopers? I was always imagined it was Darth Vader himself who went all around the galaxy killing Jedi... It kind of raised his coolness factor by just a bit....
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Well, not all of the Jedi are dead. I believe the Star Wars live action TV show will be about the last survivors as Darth Vader hunts then down to destroy them. For instance did anyone notice that Shaak ti was not in the movie?
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Somebody told me the (authorized) novelization has Anakin kill Shaak Ti in the temple (with force lightning, no less). Might have been Kit Fisto, though (or was he killed by Palpatine?)
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Even though it doesn't say so in the movie I got the impression that many Jedi got the new message sent out by Obi Wan and Yoda instructing them NOT to return to the temple and many of them spread across the galaxy. I imagine that much of Darth Vader's next 18-19 years is spent hunting them down. Although why he didn't spend that time hunting for Obi Wan, the Jedi who crippled him so badly, is anybody's guess.
Posts: 194 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Well I got to see it at last, with a strong blue tint, blown speakers and a distortion line, but hey I got to see it!
I was kept out for an hour afterwards explaining and making it coherent for my friends, since I read the novel. I was glad to see it though and I did not find the acting to be all that bad, Obi seems more effete then you would expect, almost 3PO level at times. The crisis in Anikin is downplayed but you have to realize that any reaction at all is a huge reaction in a Jedi.
Padme is just so hot! What can I say, I just like watching her lips move.
It seemed to me that the slices were a little thin, but all and all it was good. The novel is indespensible though!
posted
I finally saw it tonight! and I have to say that I really loved it. I wasn't expecting to, but I cared about the characters, I cried at the scene when Obi Wan leaves Anakin there and I loved the first scene with he and Padme...*sigh* It was MUCH better than I thought it would be.
His Savageness, I disagree with you on the Jedi scattering thing. I got the impression at the end of Episode II that there were very few Jedi left and it seemed to me that the Palpatine managed to have all of them picked off. But, if you're right, the reason he didn't get Obi Wan was because Obi Wan withdrew from everything...and they were busy building the Death Star.
Speaking of the Death Star, my friend brought up a good point: We see the Death Star at the end of Episode III and we get the impression that it's just been completed at the beginning of Episode IV. So it took about 20 years to complete it. So how in the heck did they get it 'fully armed and operational' in less than 5 years after it was destroyed? Had technology advanced that much? Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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Also, building the first one could have given them the experiance to build the same thing faster.
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quote:Somebody told me the (authorized) novelization has Anakin kill Shaak Ti in the temple (with force lightning, no less). Might have been Kit Fisto, though (or was he killed by Palpatine?)
No, it's Shaak Ti Anakin kills. I was really annoyed this didn't happen on screen; since Ti's performance in the last few episoes of Clone Wars, I was expecting a spectacular death. But we got nothing.
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I still think what we are seeing at the end of III is the prototype built in the Maw Installation. Either way, it would have probably taken much longer to build the first than the second, and the second wasn't completed in Episode VI, remember that too.
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Shaak Ti was a pretty main character in the last couple (longer) episodes of Clone Wars, and as that is getting a next season, Lucas may have removed her death scene last minute.
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Plus, we don't even know if the giant laser works or is merely a theory at this point. I can imagine them getting the framework built, the interior finished, the hyperdrives added, and taking 15 years to get the laser working right.
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quote: We see the Death Star at the end of Episode III and we get the impression that it's just been completed at the beginning of Episode IV. So it took about 20 years to complete it.
Here's a possibility: an undetermined amount of time passes between Darth Vader's putting on the mask and the scene with the Emperor and Vader observing the Death Star. After all, when Vader first "wakes up" after surgery, he isn't able to walk very well (he's all stiff-legged), whereas in the Death Star scene, he's moving naturally. Some time (years?) probably passed in between, in which he got his brain adjusted to his new body.
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What do you think of this theory: Palpy's mentor could create life with the midichlorians (sp) right? But to me, you can't create life out of nothing at all. I think he needed the basics first, which means an egg and sperm. Makes sense to me that Palpy is Anakin's father by blood, his seed being used by his master to mix with Anakin's mother's egg. It may not be true but I love it.
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Wasn't Vader standing in the death star when he announced the Emperor had disbanded the Senate?
I'm in the camp with the people who think the second death star was being built already during episode IV. One death star just isn't enough to ensure the complete domination of a whole galaxy. It's just that they're so danged expensive.
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But it almost certainly took more time to build the second one than the first. They hadn't enslaved anyone by the time the frame on the first one was completed. The second was built entirely with slave labor at Despayre.
I'm sure it took perhaps twice as long or more to build what there was of the second one over the first.
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If that's the case, than they would have had to have one in reserve, because there isn't that much time between the initial obliteration and Return of the Jedi.
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