posted
[in slight deference to others wishes I place my feelings here]
Are you cheating on her or is she cheating on you? Are you beating on her or is she beating on you?
If its any other than those two reasons for getting a divorce, than that person is lazy, heartless, selfish, and disgraceful! Divorce is NOT the answer to just about anything.
That is my feelings and I'm sticking with them. If a person is in the United States, it only takes one to divorce. You don't have to sign or agree to anything. My feelings are softer if they say "I didn't divorce them, they divorced me." The best that can happen is a one sided action, otherwise you are part of the problem.
You shouldn't drag the process out AT ALL! In other words; you should do whatever it takes to NOT have a divorce. And then, if you did all that it took and you still have a divorce, than only let that other person have the divorce. That way you can point to the other person as the culpable party.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
How does this help? You have still refused to try and understand the situation, and you have not apologized for your rude accusations.
Deleting your posts on the other thread and reposting them here unchanged with no further explanation is not an improvement, in my opinion.
Posts: 1635 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
To each there own I guess. And no, I won't appologize because I'm not sorry for what I said, only that I said it at a private thread.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Here's the thing, Occasional. Who are you to judge? Are you privy to the internal and intimate workings of each and every marriage that ends in divorce? Are you all-knowing and wise? Do you honestly think you're in a position to judge - better than those in the situation - what's best for everyone concerned?
For the record, I'm not pro-divorce-as-a-solution-to-(fill in the blank). I think that a married couple should work on salvaging the relationship as much as possible, when there's no abuse, adultery, or crime. I think divorce is, for some, far too easy a solution. But to categorically judge anyone who didn't fight divorce as "lazy, heartless, selfish, and disgraceful" is extreme.
The vitriol in your post is way over the top.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
My vitrol is the way I feel about divorce and those who do it. I'm not the only one who feels that way about the subject or subjects involved. Perhaps in todays world a minority voice perhaps.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think cheating is not always grounds for divorce. I also think there are circumstances where divorce is needed outside of unfaithfulness and abuse. And what do you constitute as abuse? Physical? Emotional? Verbal? What about if he/she is abusing your children?
And unfaithfulness? Does only intercourse count? Kissing? An "affair" with someone online?
What if you married someone (Yes, you, Occasional) and you found out several years later that she was a very successful identity thief and had no intention of changing?
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I never entertained a thought of my parents getting back together (separated when I was 3). It would be the worst thing that could happen to my family that hasn't already.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
How about if you have tried everything. Counselling, advice from a religious figure, you name it, but nothing has worked. All options have been exausted. Should the couple be forced to stay together instead? Should their children be stuck sensing someone is wrong? Sometimes you cannot win no matter what...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
What it boils down to, Occasional, is that you are not all-knowing and are not in a position to judge the lives of others and whether or not they live up to your standard of whether they should be allowed to divorce or not.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Abandonment is also grounds. If he or she leaves you and just doesn't come back, Divorce is fine. But in that case, it's the abandoning party's fault and should be taken into account when dividing the couple's posesions.
I think the way we handle divorce in this country is the real threat to marriage. When you can just walk away at any time it's not the promise it's supposed to be. There should be no such thing as No Fault Divorce.
posted
Hmm. Do you know anyone who has actually *had* a divorce, Occ?
My parents were divorced when I was pretty young, and neither of them was beating up on each other or cheating. However, I think in this case, their divorce was by far the best option. It made life difficult at times, but it was still better than the alternative.
To dismiss divorce that doesn't meet your absurdly stringent criteria as "lazy, heartless, selfish, and disgraceful" does not help anything. It is in no way productive, and by saying such things, you're actively working against finding common ground with those who disagree with you. Pointless, in other words.
Edit: Whoops, sorry for the redundancy, Quid. This is a friggin' fast-moving thread; I was typing this before your first post. *grin*
Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
"And what do you constitute as abuse? Physical? Emotional? Verbal?"
Mostly physical and sexually with only partly emotional and verbal as counting. It would have to be VERY EXTREME on the last two.
"What about if he/she is abusing your children?"
That counts as abuse, and therefore is good grounds for divorce.
"And unfaithfulness? Does only intercourse count? Kissing? An "affair" with someone online?"
I would say only a consumation or, to put it bluntly, sexual intercourse. Otherwise, it is far from too late.
"You found out several years later that she was a very successful identity thief and had no intention of changing?"
Nope, not a reason to divorce. At worst its a reason to confront the person and try to intervene, but not divorce. On the other hand, it could be counted as cheating on you because they aren't what they seem.
"How about if you have tried everything. Counselling, advice from a religious figure, you name it, but nothing has worked. All options have been exausted."
No on all of those. Unless its abuse, cheating, or (for lack of remembering to add) drugs abuse that can lead to abuse and cheating.
"Should the couple be forced to stay together instead?"
No, but they shouldn't divorce either.
"Should their children be stuck sensing someone is wrong?"
Its not about sticking with something that is wrong, but finding a way at all costs to make it right.
"Sometimes you cannot win no matter what... "
And sometimes you should never give up and never surrender.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
These two threads will give you some background about beatnix's situation if you're too lazy to look yourself. It's hurting me to see you accuse someone of being such a terrible person when I have seen him try and try and try to save this marriage.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will remain as adamant about it no matter what. You decide now how you are going to do things and not later.
And, as we have discussed this together, my wife feels the same way. Ok, she did say I was pretty blunt about it in this thread.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Some people define marriage differently than you, Occassional. Maybe a little less concern with shrieking at other people self-righteously about how to live their lives is in order here.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I specifically did a new thread so it wasn't specifically about beatnix, although periferally it still has that connection.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
"I will remain as adamant about it no matter what."
You may believe this makes you appear righteous. It does not. This actually makes you appear to be a pigheaded fool.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
While I agree to some degree with Occasional's frustration with the state of divorce today and disagree with other sentiments expressed, I think the post is over the top and unhelpful, and incredibly rude and out of place in the other thread.
However, as a separate thread, I don't believe the user agreement is being violated. Unfortunately, because it was first posted elsewhere (and even had it not been, the timing connects them), it can readily be viewed as an attack on another Hatracker.
I believe if members here choose to discuss the topic rather than any particular individuals, this thread has the possibility of merit. If that does not happen, I will lock and/or delete the thread.
posted
The topic -- that divorce is always wrong -- only makes sense to me as a claim if indeed you believe that marriage in all circumstances is always right.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
I think generally the couple feels that way, AND the parents, AND the clergy (who typically have some questioning/educating policies in that regard).
Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom has it exactly. And I can attest that there are times when it is a mistake. Perhaps you will say that it is something to consider carefully before doing it, then.
This is true. However, it's also true that sometimes people are immature when they make the decision, that societal pressure (as some unwed mothers and people, especially women, who are older than the subcultural norm for marriage often experience) can influence a wrong decision, and that people can change after marriage.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Divorce is not always wrong, Occasional, because some people enter willingly with foreknowledge into marriage having a different defintion than you do.
This being America, they're kind of allowed to do that, remember? Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: Mistakes that serious need mending, not breaking. You don't fix a wrong with another wrong.
Out of interest, what about divorce is so horrible that almost anything else is preferable to that outcome?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
Occasional, I fought my then-husband for a year, trying to convince him that we should stay married. I got people he listens to (as much as he listens to anyone) -- both religious leaders and friends -- to talk to him. Over the course of the year we saw one counselor for 6-7 months, and another for almost three.
Eventually I had to decide that torturing myself and my children was not going to have any positive result. Rather, I needed to resign myself to the divorce, and see if it could be possible to build a co-parenting relationship with my STBX.
It has been rough. At times, VERY rough. I have wondered if I should have fought longer; I have wondered if my kids might have been less traumatized if I had given in more gracefully.
YOU DON'T KNOW. You have not lived through the decisions I have had to make, the decisions that a friend of mine (IRL) is taking the first steps toward making.
I think divorce is an awful thing. I used to think that short of abuse or infidelity, there was never a good reason for it.
posted
You know better, or you just changed your opinion? As is, mine stays.
However, in answer to your question you should have simply allowed your marriage partner to do what they did. That doesn't mean that you had to have any part in the procedings. You should have fought with tooth and nail till the bitter end.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, Occasional. You're LDS; let's consider an LDS scenario.
Joan is a rebellious teenager who comes from an LDS home. She gets into drugs and sex and ends up getting pregnant at 16. The father is 18. They decide to get married (they're both druggies) to raise the baby--one perhaps good choice for them.
Ten years later, missionaries tract out the family. Joan eventually reactivates and begins bringing her daughter to church. Her husband is a drunk and a total loser, and he wants no part in it. Joan is working to support herself, her husband, and her child while her husband sits on his butt all day and drinks.
Joan's daughter is baptized, and eventually Joan feels like the next step is to go to the temple. She dreams of being married in the temple, but despite her pleading with her husband, he has no interest in her religion. Meanwhile, the differences in their lifestyles are becoming hugely apparent. Joan's husband has become critical and rude to her every chance he gets, especially when Joan goes to church.
Not only that, but Joan's daughter is inevitably going to suffer from having such a non-father.
Would you advise Joan, as her bishop, to continue in a marriage she's in as a result of a bad decision she made at age 16 when she's now obviously hurting in her marriage? Or do you think it would be better for her to move on and marry someone who will support her in the life she has chosen?
The point of this post isn't to raise the LDS lifestyle above anyone else's; please don't take it that way. The point is that sometimes people change A LOT such that their lifestyles are not at all compatible anymore and never will be, and sometimes people make really stupid choices when it comes to spouses in the first place.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Brinestone, the senerio you gave is what I would consider abuse, including the drinking. However, I would not advise a divorce if that father can somehow change (and that doesn't mean particularly LDS). On the other hand, if it is apparent that he is emotionally abusive and continues to drink than there is perhaps reason to consider divorce. But NOT because their lifestyles are hugely different.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:justified to (in order to extract military information, of course), inflict slow, painful wounds over an extended period of time, cut off someone's genitals, and then sodomize them with a broomstick
(quoting myself querying him, an opinion which he affirmed; he thinks any measures are worthwhile in order to extract military information).
He's not concerned with what's best, will rescue people from awful situations, or what's healthy, only in a morality based on absolute positions about his own righteousness.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:You should have fought with tooth and nail till the bitter end.
That's much more about you than it is about what is best for those around you, Occassional. Sometimes assuaging your own need to fight the good fight is not the most important thing in the universe.
There is that, and your audacity in speaking to other people so bluntly and critically about situations so deeply personal about which you are so incredibly ill-informed is doing much less for your argument than you think it is.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:On the other hand, if it is apparent that he is emotionally abusive and continues to drink than there is perhaps reason to consider divorce. But NOT because their lifestyles are hugely different.
Being a drunk asshole is a lifestyle.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:However, in answer to your question you should have simply allowed your marriage partner to do what they did. That doesn't mean that you had to have any part in the proceedings. You should have fought with tooth and nail till the bitter end.
Even though I could see (and so could others) how the trauma was harming them? Their dad had moved out a year before. They were living in limbo.
They needed an end to it, and so did I.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And as for what I meant by the first statement, Occassional...not everyone defines marriage in the same terms as you do. Like Tom said, if they define marriage as a contract that may be broken at any time by either party, and they both enter into marriage with that definition in mind, divorce is not wrong.
Except by your standards, which they do not share. But that's not their beef, it's yours.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
rivka, than that person was abusing your family on an emotional level and cheating on your family by abandoning his responsibility. Fine, I'll accept that.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The children will survive, I swear! Divorce before you loathe each other!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
